auto cross
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autoxcuda
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racerjoe
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They did say it can be driven on the street, they just don't. It's got a mild 440, so no race gas or anything that would prevent it from being a street car.
To put things into prospective, he was about 3-3.5 seconds faster around the cones than I was, which is an eternity in autocross. This was my very first time ever auto crossing. I'd be willing to bet my car is heavier since I have probably 150lbs of dynomat in my car along with air condition, and a bunch of other things small things that add weight. I was also running some 200TW tires that aren't very good. My point is, if I was a better driver, my street car built to handle well should be capable of keeping up with theirs. I'm hoping they go back this year so I can see if I've improved any over the course of the year. But I'm sure they have gotten better too....
If you keep up with the autocross/optima ultimate street car scene, there are some insanely fast, pro-level built GM products out there. With the right driver, I don't think one of our cars could keep up with that.
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
I have 1.14" Sway-a-Way torsion bars which are advertised at 350 lb/in rate, the ride is much firmer than stock but still very streetable unless you live in a place with terrible roads covered in potholes.
Seems like the people who say "it'll rattle my teeth and compress my spine" never actually drove a Mopar with big torsion bars. It's really not that bad at all. I've driven and ridden in newer cars, some not even performance-oriented models that had a harsher ride than my Duster. Most smaller Asian cars ride like garbage in comparison. What's cool with stiff springs is you feel the road "smooth out" once you get to higher speeds, my Duster feels like it's on rails on the freeway but you don't feel the little bumps in the road once over about 60 mph. I just don't drive it as much as I used to because traffic increased a ton in recent years, too many morons and not enough room to have "fun". Plus Dusters are actually valuable now, to my disappointment.
Seems like the people who say "it'll rattle my teeth and compress my spine" never actually drove a Mopar with big torsion bars. It's really not that bad at all. I've driven and ridden in newer cars, some not even performance-oriented models that had a harsher ride than my Duster. Most smaller Asian cars ride like garbage in comparison. What's cool with stiff springs is you feel the road "smooth out" once you get to higher speeds, my Duster feels like it's on rails on the freeway but you don't feel the little bumps in the road once over about 60 mph. I just don't drive it as much as I used to because traffic increased a ton in recent years, too many morons and not enough room to have "fun". Plus Dusters are actually valuable now, to my disappointment.
NC Engine Builder
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One "secret" to the torsion bar suspension, it it transfers the wheel motion into a twisting motion, then absorbed by the torsion bar crossmember. It's the reason the wheel rates can be sufficiently high enough for hard cornering, but still not "teeth rattling" And....over the years of racing in a highly competitive asphalt circle track class, with a torsion bar A body, I can tell you for a fact, the torsion bar is light years better than any of the GM coilover setups. The rougher and slicker the track, the more the mopar shined
I disagree. I’m not saying the driver isn’t important, they are and with amateur competitions the driver is the difference a lot of the time.
But I do follow enough of those competitions to know that Mopars do really well when they compete. The Green Brick, the Red Brick, tomswheels valiant, the Hotchkis Challenger and Taxi, and the Challenger in this thread. Except for the green brick, which is an old build, all of those other cars have pretty similar suspension set ups, with torsion bars and leaf springs. They have all done very well in competitions. And every time they come up, those big dollar GM builds all say how great the drivers are, because they don’t want to believe that they got beat by a factory design torsion bar suspension when they’ve got the most expensive set up they could afford. Not to mention that some of those Mopars are besting brand new Mustangs and Corvette’s in those competitions too.
And I’m not saying all those cars don’t have good drivers, they do. I’m just saying it’s not coincidental that they all run basically the same suspension set up either.
Look at the Hotchkis Taxi. They did that tire comparison on the TireRack track, using the TireRack test driver. He put down faster lap times with that 4-door B body than he puts down with a 3-series BMW that he drives for a living testing tires. Same track, same driver, same tires, 4 door B-body vs modern 3 series BMW, with a driver that has way more hours in that BMW and has by his own admission not driven older pro-touring style cars. I think that says a lot about what these cars can do with their torsion bars.
My wife had a 2013 Mustang with the premium option suspension for a few years. The ride on that car was very similar to my Duster. They key to running big torsion bars in these cars is matching them with good quality shocks intended for higher wheel rates. Like the RCD Bilsteins, or Hotchkis Fox’s.
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
That's the next thing my suspension needs badly is shocks. I found that out last track day it really doesn't react well going through slalom-type sections, gets unsettled pretty quick going back and forth. The ride isn't bad now I'm curious to see how it'll improve with real shocks. Probably gonna get the adjustable Foxes from @BergmanAutoCraft .
I just have the non-adjustable Hotchkis Fox’s on my Duster, they’re awesome. A little better than the Bilstein RCD’s that were on it before. Not sure what you’re running now, I know when I went from KYB’s to the RCD’s on my Challenger it was like a new car. I mean, the RCD’s are great and the KYB’s are hot garbage, but still. I only changed the shocks.
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
I'm just running cheap stock replacement shocks, fronts are Sachs I believe but I forget what the rears are, something crappy idk. I really want adjustable shocks so I can tune them in to match the car as best as possible and make more adjustments as I upgrade other parts of my suspension. Also nice for changing track conditions or swapping to different tires I imagine.
gzig5
Well-Known Member
Any input on the Viking or QA1 double adjustable? Those are the ones I’ve been considering
Was randomly looking through the forum and saw this thread. I agree with the other comments on the 1.14" bars not being bad on the street. I replaced my 1.03s with the SwayAWay 1.14" bars recently and I actually like the ride a lot better on the street now. It handles corners a lot better too.
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