Beginner's Bucks-Down /6 Build...Suggestions Welcome

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Darter6 said:
Welcome to the world of "Slant Sickness" ! Sounds like you have a plan, Take your time and find the best car you can afford. Stay away from rust issues as that will eat up any budget fast. Spend your money on suspension/brake up grades for safety first(only a suggestion).Then get into the driveline work. And last comment,,I really don't think you need to open up a can of worms by trying to do the Dakota rack. Just my thoughts... Most of all Have Fun !
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Thanks :-D I like it here. Great people and quality information. I plan to become a Gold Member soon.
That is my main priority. If I get a runner, safety first. If I get a roller, get it running, then safety first. It won't see road time til it is safe to drive.
What would be a better option for the steering? I like the idea of power rack n pinion, but I don't have anywhere near the $$$$ for aftermarket.
 
273 said:
Main problem with slant 6 is head flow, fully ported they only flow as much as a stock 273/318 port. A fully built $$$$$ NA /6 at best will cracked 300 hp most are probably in the 150-250 hp range.
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Agreed. But for a good cruiser, the /6 will do me just fine. I like it's durability, reliability, and generally low maintenance and fuel costs compared to the V8's. I'd also rather have the /6 over the V8 because I like being different. IMO, although the V8's are OK and have their place, they have been overdone at shows and such. Dare I say it... boring.
If I want a hotrod, a turbo'd /6 like Shaker 223's or Mr. Dedman's would fit the bill quite nicely, I think.
 
nm9stheham said:
All my comments here are directed at improving handling. Personally I would not bother with the larger rear end until or if you ever go to a V8; the smaller rear should be quite adequate with the mild and wilder /6 engines you list, and will be lighter, which means it will handle better over rough surfaces, due to less weight for the shocks to control. The posi wil lbe a big improvmewnt so go for that. Use high quality gas shocks like Bilsteins. Similarly, I would use AL wheels, not steel; the weight difference is huge for rough surface handling. Mono-leaf rear springs would be a good improvment but that IMO should come last unless they are cheap. The front torsion bar spring system is pretty good so I would not touch that.

The use of just a heavier sway bar is typically not optimum for handling; production car designs put the front sway bar in first and heavier, so that the front end will push out in hard cornering before the rear end gets loose That is best of the average driver who can't anticipate and handle a loose rear car, but is not optimum for handling. So a rear anti-sway bar is in order for best handling. (As a later item.)

Brake combo of disc front/drum rear will be adequate for all but the most demanding paved surface driving. The largest drum brakes are best, simply for heat dissipation, and using a good semi-metallic compound up front and a heavy police interceptor level of rear shoe compound will be good. Brake bias can be adjusted with compound changes if you ever get to that, but most people don't go there for street driving, unless they have a lot of rear lock up in wet conditions. So that's ususally not too important.

The one drivetrain comment I will make is on the trannie; if you ever could get the 4 speed OD trannie that came in the Dart Lights and Plymouth Feather Duster, you would be really happy with the gas mileage increase with the 0.83 ratio OD 4th gear. There may be other good trannie conversions out there with an OD; I am not up to speed on those. If you are out for spirited street driving, a manual will add a whole new dimension to that.

Good luck! Sounds like fun!

(BTW, my race backround it rally, and we put in all sorts of effort for rough handling improvements; those same things make a car very predicable and allows much more aggressive handling for street use.)
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Interesting reading, I also thought a front sway bar would be added first. I would like to improve handling in my 72 Valiant. Not for performance, more for like evasive maneuvers. Does anyone know where I can read up on this?
 
mopar68a said:
Agreed. But for a good cruiser, the /6 will do me just fine. I like it's durability, reliability, and generally low maintenance and fuel costs compared to the V8's. I'd also rather have the /6 over the V8 because I like being different. IMO, although the V8's are OK and have their place, they have been overdone at shows and such. Dare I say it... boring.
If I want a hotrod, a turbo'd /6 like Shaker 223's or Mr. Dedman's would fit the bill quite nicely, I think.
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Wow, I have sais almost the exact same thing before!

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showpost.php?p=1970178451&postcount=12

I like the way you think. Whether you go gold or not, stick around. We could use more slanters like you here.
 
/6 Matt said:
Wow, I have sais almost the exact same thing before!

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showpost.php?p=1970178451&postcount=12

I like the way you think. Whether you go gold or not, stick around. We could use more slanters like you here.
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LoL cool :-D Thanks. I plan to. As for my build plan, I've added a stock 7-blade viscous drive fan, better fan shroud, cold air induction setup, and battery relocation to the trunk to the list.

If I did go turbo, given my current budget limits, it would be the setup described by ssrixon4406 here, but using an Offy intake instead of a SuperSix ...

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=210774&page=6

"Here's a low budget turbo slant build
Super six intake $100
Holley 390 or 500 two barrel modified with hanger 18 mods $150
Pishta U bend pipe and flanges( high end price) $150
Walbro 392 fuel pump $100
Mallory 4309 fuel reg $ 100
Cold side piping and coupler kit under $100
Hotside piping $150 maximum
Carb hat $150
Grand national turbo or similar model $250
Different lines and fittings $150
That comes to a grand total of $1400 alot of parts can be found cheaper.
I'd also get a a/f gauge but one isn't need but helps a ton when it's time to tune.
This setup would be good for about 10 psi of boost and would probably net around 250hp."

Then all I would do is swap the ignition for electronic, swap the starter for a mini starter, swap the cam for a stock '71+, change the exhaust to a single 3", swap the rear for an 8.25 2.76:1 SG, swap the brakes for '73-'76 A-Body front disc / rear drum, add a front and rear sway bar set, better shocks, swap the tires and wheels for 14x6 steelies and P215/75R14, and rebuild the rest to stock / OEM.
 
kittypancake said:
Interesting reading, I also thought a front sway bar would be added first. I would like to improve handling in my 72 Valiant. Not for performance, more for like evasive maneuvers. Does anyone know where I can read up on this?
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There is a Fred Puhm book from 20+ years ago called "How to Make Your Car Handle". It has a loot of good stuff to start with and when you learn more, then you can find a lot of things that you did not see at first in that book. It is an all around primer, with some generalizations, not the end-all book for any particular car.

Research what is called 'roll stiffness'. There are 2 contributors to roll stiffness: the springs and the anti-roll bars. Without any roll stiffness, the car rolls way over in the turns, the tires are no longer vertical on the road, and the inside tires don't help corner; all the weight transfers to the outside in a severe case. Keeping the car flatter with increased roll stiffness prevents as much net weight transfer to the outside tires and tneds to keep the tires more upright. You gain to a certain point with added roll stiffness, but if you get too flat with too much roll stiffness, then you start losing again (for stock tires; racing tires can take advantage of more roll stiffness).

When you make one end's roll stiffness very large (like putting high roll stiffness upfront with very stiff front springs and a huge front anti-sway bar with no rear anit-sway bar and soft rear springs), then you get almost all of the weight transfer to the front outside tire and it takes the lion's share of the corneing load and the front understeers badly (the car pushes or plows). Reverse that, with too much roll stiffness in the rear, and the car oversteers with the rear acting loose. With slick or rough pavement, or on loose gravel or wet leaves, the push or loose condition gets exaggerated very quickly.

So unless you have really stiff rear springs already, then a mild rear anti-sway bar may be in order. Ideally, you would change out the rear multi-leafs for a mono-leaf to get better rear spring linearity, but I don't know if anyone makes a monoleaf for any Mopars. GM used them some around 1970 models for better handling of some special models of live rear axle Novas and such. (I do know that a 1976 Dart Lite weight and springing was pretty neutral under mild braking, for whatever that is worth. But the rear end was kinda light to start with....)

And I have always thought that a panhard rod might make the A body stay centered over the rear axle better. I raced a bunch of cars with panhards rods as a standard piece; the feel of the rear 'staying stable under the car' and the consitency of the cornering was a lot better than a standard Dodge Dart cornering stance.
 
You will have to do a little searching,, Check Mopar Action Magazine and look for power steering tech. Factory power steering is 16 to 1 . The article shows how to modify the pump for more road feel. If you have the money a new power steering box is being offered by Borgeson that is lighter,and more compact than the factory unit.Some friends are using them now in their auto cross mopars.

Slant sixes are fun and get alot of looks when you open the hood.:cheers:
 

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Even thou you cant see them,this Dart that was done several years ago was a stock slant driveline, but had up graded the Brakes, Steering and Suspension, 15'' wheels and tires with Hellwig products front and rear swaybars. Made a great driving difference. Dang,, I shoulda' kept that car.....
 

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mopar68a said:
LoL cool :-D Thanks. I plan to. As for my build plan, I've added a stock 7-blade viscous drive fan, better fan shroud, cold air induction setup, and battery relocation to the trunk to the list.

If I did go turbo, given my current budget limits, it would be the setup described by ssrixon4406 here, but using an Offy intake instead of a SuperSix ...

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=210774&page=6

"Here's a low budget turbo slant build
Super six intake $100
Holley 390 or 500 two barrel modified with hanger 18 mods $150
Pishta U bend pipe and flanges( high end price) $150
Walbro 392 fuel pump $100
Mallory 4309 fuel reg $ 100
Cold side piping and coupler kit under $100
Hotside piping $150 maximum
Carb hat $150
Grand national turbo or similar model $250
Different lines and fittings $150
That comes to a grand total of $1400 alot of parts can be found cheaper.
I'd also get a a/f gauge but one isn't need but helps a ton when it's time to tune.
This setup would be good for about 10 psi of boost and would probably net around 250hp."

Then all I would do is swap the ignition for electronic, swap the starter for a mini starter, swap the cam for a stock '71+, change the exhaust to a single 3", swap the rear for an 8.25 2.76:1 SG, swap the brakes for '73-'76 A-Body front disc / rear drum, add a front and rear sway bar set, better shocks, swap the tires and wheels for 14x6 steelies and P215/75R14, and rebuild the rest to stock / OEM.
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THAT is an impressively-complete and correct list! I am blown away... You have surely done your homework!

If you build that motor with those parts, you'll have more fun than the law allows... :)

Go for it!!!

:cheers:
 
Darter6 said:
Even thou you cant see them,this Dart that was done several years ago was a stock slant driveline, but had up graded the Brakes, Steering and Suspension, 15'' wheels and tires with Hellwig products front and rear swaybars. Made a great driving difference. Dang,, I shoulda' kept that car.....
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WOW!...I woulda kept that car!
 
Darter6 said:
You will have to do a little searching,, Check Mopar Action Magazine and look for power steering tech. Factory power steering is 16 to 1 . The article shows how to modify the pump for more road feel. If you have the money a new power steering box is being offered by Borgeson that is lighter,and more compact than the factory unit.Some friends are using them now in their auto cross mopars.

Slant sixes are fun and get alot of looks when you open the hood.:cheers:
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Noted. Thanks. I will search it out. At first, though, I'll likely go with a stock pump modded for better feel. The Borgeson unit can be a "for later".
 
Darter6 said:
Even thou you cant see them,this Dart that was done several years ago was a stock slant driveline, but had up graded the Brakes, Steering and Suspension, 15'' wheels and tires with Hellwig products front and rear swaybars. Made a great driving difference. Dang,, I shoulda' kept that car.....
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One word comes to mind... Beautiful. :blob:
 
Bill Dedman said:
THAT is an impressively-complete and correct list! I am blown away... You have surely done your homework!

If you build that motor with those parts, you'll have more fun than the law allows... :)

Go for it!!!

:cheers:
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LOL I bet I would! And surprise quite a few folks, too. Part 2 of the fun part.

Thanks very much, Mr. Dedman. Your seal of approval means a lot. I learned quite a bit from your posts, and the most from your comparison of Turbo /6 vs. HotRod V8. I'm strongly considering going the turbo route instead of my original plan, mainly based on your comparison and on what Shaker 223 did on his first run with a mostly stock Dart. Though mine would be a "beater" more door weighing about 2,750lbs, based on the listed shipping weight in the 68 Dart Pocket Card.

:blob:
 
BTW, This is a blue Dart like the one I'm searching for... And two others I also like. The second green one, depending on how far the rust has gotten, is OK.
 

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mopar68a said:
LOL I bet I would! And surprise quite a few folks, too. Part 2 of the fun part.

Thanks very much, Mr. Dedman. Your seal of approval means a lot. I learned quite a bit from your posts, and the most from your comparison of Turbo /6 vs. HotRod V8. I'm strongly considering going the turbo route instead of my original plan, mainly based on your comparison and on what Shaker 223 did on his first run with a mostly stock Dart. Though mine would be a "beater" more door weighing about 2,750lbs, based on the listed shipping weight in the 68 Dart Pocket Card.

:blob:
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Thanks for the kind words.... but...

There is THIS to consider, here...

If you want GOOD advice, ask someone like Shaker223 or Ryan Peterson... guys whose cars have actually PROVEN themselves on the strip. Not me.... I have yet to get our bucket of bolts down the strip. I don't
know whether, for sure, all this B.S. I have been spouting actually works or not.

If it doesn't, I have wasted a lot of time and money...

We'll see... lol!:cheers:
 
mopar68a said:
BTW, This is a blue Dart like the one I'm searching for... And two others I also like. The second green one, depending on how far the rust has gotten, is OK.
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Why don't you search for a Valiant; they are shorter and lighter...

Just a suggestion...:glasses7:
 
Bill Dedman said:
Thanks for the kind words.... but...

There is THIS to consider, here...

If you want GOOD advice, ask someone like Shaker223 or Ryan Peterson... guys whose cars have actually PROVEN themselves on the strip. Not me.... I have yet to get our bucket of bolts down the strip. I don't
know whether, for sure, all this B.S. I have been spouting actually works or not.

If it doesn't, I have wasted a lot of time and money...

We'll see... lol!:cheers:
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You're welcome. Noted. I will. But your research, presentation, and experience in other areas count for much also. I wish you luck on your first run, when the time comes. And I wouldn't consider it wasted time. Frustrating, maybe, if it didn't work right the first time, but not waste.
 
Darter6 said:
Slant sixes are fun and get alot of looks when you open the hood.:cheers:
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Especially if it sports an exotic intake set-up like a set of triple SU's or triple Webers,
 

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mopar68a said:
You're welcome. Noted. I will. But your research, presentation, and experience in other areas count for much also. I wish you luck on your first run, when the time comes. And I wouldn't consider it wasted time. Frustrating, maybe, if it didn't work right the first time, but not waste.
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I'll tell you what I know (or, think I know.)

TUNING is more important than most folks realize... getting a fuel delivery system that can give your engine exactly what it needs in terms of mixture, both under boost and at cruise, is not the easiest thing in the world to do. For starters, carburetors were never designed to function under boost. Particularly, under 20+ pounds of boost. But, that's where the power is. And, that's where the fun is! But the negative aspects of this tuning business is, if you make a mistake and happen to get it lean under boost (a disturbingly easy thing to do,) detonation can (and will) destroy your engine in the twinkling of an eye. That is particularly true if you have built the engine on a budget and have used stock, cast pistons with stock-type rings. That is why it is just about impossible to build one of these things without the aid of a wideband oxygen sensor,

That piece of equipment is the first thing I'd recommend a clant six turbo builder buy... for sure!

More later... morphrus calls...:glasses7:
 
I understand the best band for the buck, but lets face something here, what is the OP's history of automotive experience? does he have the ability to put a turbo system together, tune it properly, and maintenance it properly? OP if you can do this in your sleep i apologize as your first posts made it seem you were new.

IMO if this is your first build you need to do the basic NA build we laid out for you. It will be easy and cheap to build, it will be a big return for your work, and most importantly you will cut your teeth and learn from mistakes. IMO most people go to boost for return without spending the time to LEARN what makes an engine work (build matrix, tune, etc). Boost is not just blow and go, its something that you learn to control and use to your advantage. That said if you cant do a prep and clearance a head for a goal, install and tune an NA induction, and build off of it to make it more efficient, you have no place running boost.

These boost guys are always in favor of blow because they can get their quick hp boost, but if you want to LEARN dont do exactly what someone else did because all the mistakes are fixed, i.e. you wont learn that way, it was given. Every motor i build and help build i learn a ton, you'll do good to do the same.
 
805moparkid said:
I understand the best band for the buck, but lets face something here, what is the OP's history of automotive experience? does he have the ability to put a turbo system together, tune it properly, and maintenance it properly? OP if you can do this in your sleep i apologize as your first posts made it seem you were new.

IMO if this is your first build you need to do the basic NA build we laid out for you. It will be easy and cheap to build, it will be a big return for your work, and most importantly you will cut your teeth and learn from mistakes. IMO most people go to boost for return without spending the time to LEARN what makes an engine work (build matrix, tune, etc). Boost is not just blow and go, its something that you learn to control and use to your advantage. That said if you cant do a prep and clearance a head for a goal, install and tune an NA induction, and build off of it to make it more efficient, you have no place running boost.

These boost guys are always in favor of blow because they can get their quick hp boost, but if you want to LEARN dont do exactly what someone else did because all the mistakes are fixed, i.e. you wont learn that way, it was given. Every motor i build and help build i learn a ton, you'll do good to do the same.
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Ed,

That is 100-percent true and is an excellent post! Thanks for pointing that out as it is SO true and needed to be said!

You may have saved the OP a lot of time and misery by pointing this out.

Thanks for an really important post! Made my day! :cheers:
 
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