Belt rubbing water pump

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danielb927

danielb927

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Anyone ever had problems on a 360 with the alternator belt rubbing against the water pump housing? Is it a tension thing, wrong alternator bracket, wrong belt size, or all of the above? I'll try to get a picture up later today - the corner of the belt's just being slowly chafed off by one of the ribs that runs along the water pump housing.

More details - the car has PS but no A/C - the alternator belt is only on the crank and alternator, while the P/S belt goes around the water pump too.
 
I have mine setup the same way, which is technically not the correct way. The car was probably an ac car at one point and they modified the belts to work with the same pullies. A non ac car should have a belt running from alternator-water pump-crank and another going from the crank to p/s. If you use the ac pullies they wont line up correctly because the ac compressor was removed, so you have to modify the routing a bit.

It works just fine on my 360, even if its not correct, check to see if the alternator pulley is lined up correctly. Or look for a non-ac accessory pulley setup to correct the routing.
 
you have an ac alternator bracket but a non ac alternator.First the ac alternator setup runs the two pulleys.when you remove the ac you can switch the belt to the outside only pulley on the alternator and run the PS on the inside crank pulley.If you only have the single pulley alternator then you have to get the non ac alternator brackets or modify yours.
 
The problem is with the ac compressor installed the belts run around it and miss the water pump.When its removed the belts route has to be changed.I'll look for a post that show pics if both ac anc non ac setups.
 
Appreciate the info guys, let me make sure I have it straight. To go back to the "correct" routing, I'd have to get a different fan pulley, right? It seems like as it is, the front slot in the crank pulley lines up with water pump and PS only, and the middle and back slots line up with alternator slots only.
 
That's the setup you use when going from an a/c setup to a non a/c setup and keeping the a/c brackets and belts.Not sure why it is rubbing(it shouldn't) mine is the same setup.Is the belt loose and flopping into the waterpump?Looks like it should clear if the belt is tight.The back pulley is the one that rubs,that outer one shouldn't.
 
The back pulley is the one rubbing and yes, it's a little looser than spec. I've tried tightening it up before but need to get another pair of hands out with me to get it up to spec.
 
After tightening up the belt to spec a couple of weeks ago, the belt snapped today on my drive home. Not surprised at all, the alt was really not in good alignment when we pulled it tight enough.

Can anyone describe the proper belt routing for a non-ac car with power steering, and maybe what mounting hardware I need to get? I'd like to fix it right if I'm going to have to fix it anyways.
 
danielb927 said:
After tightening up the belt to spec a couple of weeks ago, the belt snapped today on my drive home. Not surprised at all, the alt was really not in good alignment when we pulled it tight enough.

Can anyone describe the proper belt routing for a non-ac car with power steering, and maybe what mounting hardware I need to get? I'd like to fix it right if I'm going to have to fix it anyways.
Click to expand...

Crankshaft-alt-water pump for the inner belt.

Crank-P/S for the outer belt.

Do you have the proper pulleys? Proper diameter and depth?


Or get a non-belt-rubbing water pump.... LOL!
 
Looks like you need a correct WP pulley and new belts.
C
 
krazykuda said:
Crankshaft-alt-water pump for the inner belt.

Crank-P/S for the outer belt.

Do you have the proper pulleys? Proper diameter and depth?


Or get a non-belt-rubbing water pump.... LOL!
Click to expand...

My water pump pulley is a single groove and it lines up with the outermost groove on the crank, does the non-AC set up have a different pulley there? Also, what's the difference in mounting hardware for the alternator?

I don't know if all the pulleys are the "proper" diameter/depth - they all look matched to each other, at least, but I'll have to double check that too. I don't think the water pump is the issue as it didn't rub when the alt belt was tight enough. Just that it had already worn that belt, plus the alt is really loose in its pivot so it's misaligned when tight.
 
danielb927 said:
My water pump pulley is a single groove and it lines up with the outermost groove on the crank, does the non-AC set up have a different pulley there? Also, what's the difference in mounting hardware for the alternator?

I don't know if all the pulleys are the "proper" diameter/depth - they all look matched to each other, at least, but I'll have to double check that too. I don't think the water pump is the issue as it didn't rub when the alt belt was tight enough. Just that it had already worn that belt, plus the alt is really loose in its pivot so it's misaligned when tight.
Click to expand...


Now that I have finally looked at the pictures, I have one or two more suggestions.

What about a smaller diameter for the crank pulley for that belt?

Why are you running a double pulley alternator without A/C. Typically the double pulley alternators were with the A/C cars and there were two belts for the crank-alt-a/c belt. Then they put the crank-water pump-P/S on another belt. Three belts. two on the alt-A/C, and one for the water pump and P/S.

With the non A/C cars, there was only one belt for the crank-alt-water pump. the grooves are in different places for the double pulley and single pulley alternators. You may need to get a single groove alternator and then find the correct era pulleys for the crank and water pump.

Mancini racing sells the pulleys to go A/C or non-A/C new.

I want to caution that I have a collection of pulleys in a box. I have also bought some brand new ones. They are all mixed together in the same "pulley box". I have noticed that when I tried the two pulleys that look like they are the brand new ones, the water pump pulley has too much runout - (front to rear wobble). I found on my son's engine that the older one did not have the wobble/runout that the newer looking ones do. I'm not sure if they came that way or not as I'm not sure if they were the new ones or not. If you buy a new one, put the pulley on a flat surface (table) and see if the groove for the belt is flat or not.


Here's some pictures of my son's engine for his Valiant showing how we set up his pulleys on the engine stand. I have many different angles for you to look at and see if yours are any different. It seems to be the same early 70's vintage as yours.

View attachment Ken 360 041114 Fuel Line A01 B.jpg

View attachment Ken 360 041114 Fuel Line A02 B.jpg

View attachment Ken 360 041114 Fuel Line A05 B.jpg

View attachment Ken 360 041114 Pulley A01 B.jpg

View attachment Ken 360 041114 Pulley A01 B2.jpg

View attachment Ken 360 041114 Pulley A02 B.jpg

View attachment Ken 360 041114 Pulley A02 B2.jpg

View attachment Ken 360 041114 Pulley A03 B.jpg

Here's a bird's eye view showing the alignment of the pulley belt grooves:

View attachment Ken 360 041114 Pulley A03 B2.jpg
 
danielb927 said:
Also, what's the difference in mounting hardware for the alternator?

I don't know if all the pulleys are the "proper" diameter/depth - they all look matched to each other, at least, but I'll have to double check that too. I don't think the water pump is the issue as it didn't rub when the alt belt was tight enough. Just that it had already worn that belt, plus the alt is really loose in its pivot so it's misaligned when tight.
Click to expand...


The alternator brackets are the same for A/C or non-A/C.


There wasn't a different water pump. I was just making fun of the wording in the title for a "belt rubbing water pump" as opposed to a "non-belt rubbing water pump".... Just a joke for the word play...

If you notice on our crank pulley, the diameter is smaller than the groove for the P/S belt. I can measure if if you need me to.
 
Appreciate the pics kuda. The double-groove alt pulley - this was an AC engine but the PO removed the AC and I guess just hacked together a pulley set-up that would work. Sounds like that's a common thing people do.

Also, clearly my alt. mounting is NOT the same as what you have, so I'll probably replace that. Mine just has a single pivot on the "engine side" of things, which means there's really no way it can be tight enough without a ton of deflection.

So my question is, is it worth it to just replace all of the pulleys and brackets to have the right set-up? I assume the water pump isn't bad but how tough is it to swap out a crankshaft and alternator pulley on the car?
 
danielb927 said:
Appreciate the pics kuda. The double-groove alt pulley - this was an AC engine but the PO removed the AC and I guess just hacked together a pulley set-up that would work. Sounds like that's a common thing people do.

Also, clearly my alt. mounting is NOT the same as what you have, so I'll probably replace that. Mine just has a single pivot on the "engine side" of things, which means there's really no way it can be tight enough without a ton of deflection.

So my question is, is it worth it to just replace all of the pulleys and brackets to have the right set-up? I assume the water pump isn't bad but how tough is it to swap out a crankshaft and alternator pulley on the car?
Click to expand...


It's not that bad at all (to change the crank pulley). Sometimes the pulley sticks to the damper, but a few good whacks with a rubber hammer will break it loose after the bolts are out. 6 bolts and the center bolt will get it off.


I bought repro alt brackets and alt from Mancini. they carry the alt, alt brackets, and pulleys. As I cautioned before, check the water pump pulley for flatness on the back surface right out of the box if you order one new.

Price check the brackets and pulleys between Mancini and bouchilon performance.


http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/alternator_brackets


http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/5251_alternator_brackets


I liked the Bouchillon bracket set as it comes with all of the bolts and spacers. I think that mancini racing doesn't have all the bolts like bouchilon.


Mancini Alt bkts:

http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/5251_alternator_brackets

Mancini pulleys:

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/strepu.html


Bouchilon pulleys:

http://www.bouchillonperformance.com/engine_pulleys
 
danielb927 said:
Appreciate the pics kuda. The double-groove alt pulley - this was an AC engine but the PO removed the AC and I guess just hacked together a pulley set-up that would work. Sounds like that's a common thing people do.

Also, clearly my alt. mounting is NOT the same as what you have, so I'll probably replace that. Mine just has a single pivot on the "engine side" of things, which means there's really no way it can be tight enough without a ton of deflection.

So my question is, is it worth it to just replace all of the pulleys and brackets to have the right set-up? I assume the water pump isn't bad but how tough is it to swap out a crankshaft and alternator pulley on the car?
Click to expand...


If you have a stock A/C crank pulley, the two inner belt grooves will be the same size as the two belts are the same size and pulleys all the same diameter. The non A/C crank pulley has a smaller diameter for the alt-water pump belt. This may be the main reason why your belt is hitting. Your groove is too big of a diameter than the non A/C pulley.

The grooves for the belts in the alt pulleys are not in the same position for the single and double groove pulleys. It is slightly off front/rear.
 
How tough is swapping the alt pulley? It's listed on both sites as a press fit so I'm assuming it requires a hydraulic press?
 
danielb927 said:
How tough is swapping the alt pulley? It's listed on both sites as a press fit so I'm assuming it requires a hydraulic press?
Click to expand...


No press needed. It just bolts to the damper. there are 6 x 1/2 hex on the bolt circle and sometimes you have to remove the crank bolt and washer if they overlap. then whack it a few good times with a rubber hammer and it will come off.

The hardest part is lining up the bolt pattern when installing it. some have an offset bolt pattern and you have to see if it is lined up correctly. You have to get the right line of sight to do it in the car, but it can be done.

The alt pulley is press fit. I buy alternators with the right pulley instead of having to change it.
 
krazykuda said:
No press needed. It just bolts to the damper. there are 6 x 1/2 hex on the bolt circle and sometimes you have to remove the crank bolt and washer if they overlap. then whack it a few good times with a rubber hammer and it will come off.

The hardest part is lining up the bolt pattern when installing it. some have an offset bolt pattern and you have to see if it is lined up correctly. You have to get the right line of sight to do it in the car, but it can be done.

The alt pulley is press fit. I buy alternators with the right pulley instead of having to change it.
Click to expand...

I guess my real question is, do I need to worry about the alternator pulley, or will it be close enough? Since the alt works, as far as I know, I'd rather not have to buy a new one just to get the right pulley, but I don't have easy access to a press to change just the pulley either. So if I swap everything else and leave the double pulley, can I shim the mounting a bit to get things aligned?
 
danielb927 said:
I guess my real question is, do I need to worry about the alternator pulley, or will it be close enough? Since the alt works, as far as I know, I'd rather not have to buy a new one just to get the right pulley, but I don't have easy access to a press to change just the pulley either. So if I swap everything else and leave the double pulley, can I shim the mounting a bit to get things aligned?
Click to expand...

I've seen many people run the double pulley without the A/C hooked up. The belts are slightly off front to rear, but will still work. It may wear the belt more with the extra side load, but you may be able to get away with it.

I think that you should get the proper double groove pulley at least to get the diameter smaller for the pulley around the crank to help your clearance with the water pump.
 
you need non a/c alternator bracket and non a/c pullies
 
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