racerjoe
Well-Known Member
I have.
Best Aftermarket Suspension Set-up
- Thread starter scatpakman
- Start date
-
It just as much if not more. I just price everything out.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
just did all that stuff to our dart this summer. 1.08 bars, delrin lower arm bushings, bilstein shocks all the way around and a good alignment (car already had adjustable upper arms and strut rods, also already had eaton 130 pound leaf springs. the car drives incredible compared to even the old 1" bars. also added the borgenson box which was even more of an improvement (except for its freaking hissing sound it runs up the column) no comparison to a sloppy stock box. . car rides and drive really well, i think most would be very impressed with it. i know i like it.
all that being said. i still liked the alter-k with a rack and all better. to me the rack still felt more precise and most of all the rack didn't make the hissing sound.
if i did it again I'd be going alter- k. price wise there isn't as much difference as some like to make it sound. i have a ton of money in this stock suspension and could go much further at even more money.
Nah, it’s definitely not more if you’re keeping things comparable. You can do everything in the torsion bar suspension to the same level as the coil over conversions with all new aftermarket components for less than the coil over conversions. The last time I priced everything out even with the Borgrson it was close to $1k less than a standard coil over conversions OOTB.
I’ve itemized that comparison multiple times and posted it here. Even with the fanciest stuff out there and all brand new parts I’ve never had the torsion bar set up with aftermarket parts come out more than a standard coil over conversion.
No matter what way you go its going to coast you. You can cut corners on both.
Factory K Frame
1295.00 Borgeson coverson kit
415.00 mopar roller linkage steering kit
30.00 lower control arms stiffening plates
149.00 lower privet and bushing
875.00. Upper A frames = these are the newest and best
500.00 fox front shocks
300.00 hellwig sway bar
305.00 adjustable strut rod
470.00 torsion bars
150.00 73V8 k frame
150.00 73 lower control arms with swaybar tabs
———————-
4539.00. No spindles, Motor mounts, brakes
===========================================================
HDK Suspension
Basic K-frame package for $3,795 includes:
Complete K-frame package with MANUAL rack & pinion for $4,795
Add for POWER rack & pinion is $150
(Complete packages include all items in the Basic K-frame package above plus the following items.)
Optional Anti-sway bar assembly add $180
Gen II or Gen III Hemi motor mounts add $150
Factory K Frame
1295.00 Borgeson coverson kit
415.00 mopar roller linkage steering kit
30.00 lower control arms stiffening plates
149.00 lower privet and bushing
875.00. Upper A frames = these are the newest and best
500.00 fox front shocks
300.00 hellwig sway bar
305.00 adjustable strut rod
470.00 torsion bars
150.00 73V8 k frame
150.00 73 lower control arms with swaybar tabs
———————-
4539.00. No spindles, Motor mounts, brakes
===========================================================
HDK Suspension
Basic K-frame package for $3,795 includes:
- Fully TIG welded K-frame
- Chromoly upper and lower control arms
- 4 automotive grade ball joints (1" extended upper ball joints standard)
- Chromoly support hoops
- Upper shock mounts
- Three position ride height simulators
- Sway bar mounts (can be deleted)
- HDK / Schumacher poly mounts of motor choice
- Energy Suspension lower control arm bump stops
- Energy Suspension adjustable upper control arm bump stops
- Energy Suspension upper and lower ball joint dust covers
- Poly bushings, sleeves, spacers, and bolts for rack and pinion mount
- Pivot shaft rear support brace
- Automotive grade tie rod ends.
- All hardware for above is INCLUDED.
Complete K-frame package with MANUAL rack & pinion for $4,795
Add for POWER rack & pinion is $150
(Complete packages include all items in the Basic K-frame package above plus the following items.)
- New Mustang II Spindles
- New Rack & Pinion
- QA1 Promo Star DS Shocks
- QA1 High Travel Coilover Springs
- QA1 Thrust Washers for Coilovers
- Borgeson Steering Shaft Hookup
- Combination vibration damper / U-joint
- DD/DD U-joint
- Approx 9" of DD shaft
Optional Anti-sway bar assembly add $180
Gen II or Gen III Hemi motor mounts add $150
Yes, neither option is cheap but nothing about this hobby is.
But let's compare LIKE TO LIKE. Not power steering to manual steering. Using the GenII SPC UCA's and comparing them to the standard HDK kit is comparing double adjustable control arms to non adjustable control arms. You added a roller idler that isn't necessary at all (although nice, no doubt). You're comparing Delrin LCA bushings to poly. And you added the complete Borgeson kit, which contains the steering pump and lines that don't come with the HDK. You added a '73 K frame, which you should already have, or do the prices for the earlier K frame. Or just figure you can sell your 68-72 and call it square.
So I redid my list and these are current prices, for everything NEW. No reinforcing control arms, etc, this is a bolt on operation so no argument about paying for welding. And no gusseting the K frame either, because unless you compare an HDK to a stock K frame you don't know which is actually stiffer. I added in engine mounts and spindles too because they're in the HDK package. The idler and pitman are Moog, because they're what's in stock today and available. There's less expensive and actually better stuff, but it's not currently in stock.
QA1 Tubular UCA’s - $464.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52301 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $304.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
QA1 LCA’s - $583.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
QA1 tie rod sleeves- $86.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
Proforged tie rod ends- $221.16 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10156 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $56.85
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $56.85
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Fox RideTech adjustable shocks (2, sold as 4) $500
Fox Ridetech Monotube Adjustable Shocks - Bergman Auto Craft
PST manual steering box - $329.99
Manual Steering Box 16:1
Moog pitman arm (manual) - $39.79
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7075 Moog Replacement Pitman Arms | Summit Racing
Moog idler - $72.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing
Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $282.14
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing
Bergman Autocraft 1.08” torsion bars- $470
Mopar A Body Torsion Bar Set 1.08" - Bergman Auto Craft
Proforged polyurethane control arm shaft kit w/bushings- $124.95
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10003 Proforged Control Arm Shaft Kits | Summit Racing
Proforged Camber bolts (2 sets) - $39.22
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pof-120-10009/make/dodge/model/dart/year/1974
DoctorDiff 73+ spindles- $175
Mopar Reproduction Disc Brake Knuckles for A/B/E Bodies
Schumacher engine mounts (SB, BB, conversion mounts same price) - $229
'73+ A,B,C,F,M,J-Body 273/318 or 340/360 Replacement Kit
Total: $4,038.74 (manual)
Now, if you add power steering,
Borgeson box from BAC $849
BAC Steering Box Conversion Kit - Large Sector 73-82 - Bergman Auto Craft
Total: $4,887.74 (power steering, w/ pump and lines not included just like the HDK)
Now, the HDK. I added the cost of the sway bar, because there's one in the torsion bar set up. Like to like.
HDK w/manual rack & sway bar - $4,975
HDK w/power rack & sway bar - $5,125
This should be a fully like to like comparison, I may have missed something, I did my best and if I forgot something let me know, I'll add it. The torsion bar suspension package contains everything new, tubular, and poly, except for the K frame itself. All of the hardware is accounted for, except maybe shock bolts and lower ball joint bolts. It's for '73+ Mopars, but assuming the LBJ conversion only the pitman, idler and sway bar would change.
Manual to manual it's over $900 less for the torsion bar set up. Power to power its still $237 cheaper.
Yes, you can buy fancier stuff for either set up, but I think that's a pretty fair comparison of function/adjustability/materials. You could leave the rubber bushings in the QA1 LCA's and save $125, but that's kinda cheating. You could also reuse the QA1 pivots with $10 prothane poly LCA bushings, but then the pins are not greaseable and I believe the HDK ones are. I tried to make it as comparable as possible.
And of course this ignores that you may have some of those factory parts that are included in that list, which could make upgrading the torsion bar set up even less expensive.
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You forgot to take HDK basic kit and shop for cheaper prices. Which I really don’t care the point was they’re both not cheap and both work great. There is pros and cons on both. I actually think both are great
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
Denny's UCAs are adjustable and he uses delrin bushings....
I didn't forget. You can get cheaper versions of some of the parts I listed as well, like if you buy POL stuff etc. I tried to keep things middle of the road or better for quality and reputation, I didn't just list the cheapest parts I could find.
And absolutely, there are pros and cons to both and the coil over conversion has some benefits you just can't get with the torsion bar suspension, like the feel of a rack and pinion. But I also see claims being made about the coil over conversions that aren't true, or aren't necessarily true, and I think that should be addressed. Even buying absolutely everything brand new for the torsion bar suspension the cost is, at the very least, on par with a coil over conversion. And that still ignores reusing things like the lower control arms, or spindles, etc, which is definitely an option for some folks considering the swap, and is not at all an option for a coil over conversion.
Power steering to power steering the cost is pretty much the same. Manual to manual though is still like $900 cheaper, which is significant IMO. Now maybe most folks don't want to run factory manual steering or even 16:1, but personally I still do, so I feel that's still valid.
Thanks! I was just going off of his website. Are they single or double adjustable?
Either way, I can add the SPC GenI's, I think those are probably a more equal comparison. And I can add the Delrin LCA bushings back in. But knowing what pivot pins they come with, I think it's also fair to just add the bare bushings for use with the brand new pivots the QA1 LCA's come with.
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA’s (1st gen)- $489
BAC/SPC 1.0 Upper Control Arm - Bergman Auto Craft
Proforged ball joints- $51.64 (both included)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10126 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
QA1 Adjustable strut bars - $304.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
QA1 LCA’s - $583.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52307 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
QA1 tie rod sleeves- $86.95
1974 DODGE DART QA1 52325 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
Proforged tie rod ends- $221.16 (all 4)
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10157 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10156 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing
Proforged lower ball joint (driver)- $56.85
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Proforged lower ball joint (passenger)- $56.85
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Fox RideTech adjustable shocks (2, sold as 4) $500
Fox Ridetech Monotube Adjustable Shocks - Bergman Auto Craft
PST manual steering box - $329.99
Manual Steering Box 16:1
Moog pitman arm (manual) - $39.79
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7075 Moog Replacement Pitman Arms | Summit Racing
Moog idler - $72.99
1974 DODGE DART Moog Chassis Parts K7086 Moog Replacement Idler Arms | Summit Racing
Hellwig 55905 front sway bar- $282.14
1974 DODGE DART Hellwig 55905 Hellwig Motorsports Tubular Sway Bars | Summit Racing
Bergman Autocraft 1.08” torsion bars- $470
Mopar A Body Torsion Bar Set 1.08" - Bergman Auto Craft
Bergman AutoCraft Delrin LCA bushings - $76.50
BAC Delrin Lower Control Arm Bushings - Bergman Auto Craft
Proforged Camber bolts (2 sets) - $39.22
1974 DODGE DART Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10009 Proforged Camber Bolts | Summit Racing
DoctorDiff 73+ spindles- $175
Mopar Reproduction Disc Brake Knuckles for A/B/E Bodies
Schumacher engine mounts (SB, BB, conversion mounts same price) - $229
'73+ A,B,C,F,M,J-Body 273/318 or 340/360 Replacement Kit
Total: $4,065.98 (manual)
The difference vs the old list is $27.24, so the manual to manual comparison is still over $900 less for the torsion bar set up. Power to power drops to just over $200.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
Single adjustable at the bushing. He welds threaded inserts to the tubing, which is much better than some of the ones that just threaded the tubing. I still use the gen 1 SPCs because I change my alignment fairly often and I like the simplicity they offer.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
finally someone admits that the price difference is not much if at all.. all the years of guys saying that a tb suspension was so much cheaper. it just isn't.
imagine that. i've been saying that the tb and full r&p systems are much closer then most will admit for years now. glad to someone actually typed this..
not to me.. if i'm already at 4K with either system 900 bucks isn't making or breaking the sale. i'll just save a bit longer or sell something for such a small difference.
for me i'd run a manual rack well before a manual box. had them both over the years and prefer the rack over a manual box. in reality though i'm going power steering either with a rack or borgenson box. just nicer and more comfortable driving in my opinion..
mopowers
Well-Known Member
For the price point of both complete systems, any cost difference between the two is just a drop in the bucket.
Well, I’m one of those guys that has said the torsion bar suspension is substantially less expensive. And 20% less is still substantially cheaper in my book for the manual to manual comparison. $900 is a chunk of change for most folks. So yeah, I’m gonna keep saying it’s substantially cheaper, and posting exactly the break down of what I mean.
The other thing is that in the name of making it across the board a bolt on operation with like to like parts, a substantial amount of savings is missed with the torsion bar suspension. Another $480 shows up in your pocket if you just use the stock LCA’s with reinforcing plates. If you’ve already got 73+ spindles you save another $175. Suddenly you’ve spent $1,500 less, and those aren’t even options for the coil over conversion. Engine mounts are ok? Or maybe you just need a poly insert at $56 instead of $229.
I mean if you’ve got a 73+ disk car and can weld on LCA reinforcing plates and use your factory engine mounts with new poly bushings and your 73+ spindles you’ve saved over $800 vs the list. So that’s $1,700 less overall for manual to manual, and you could knock that entire $800 off a power to power comparison as well, which would make that $1k in savings vs the conversion. And those aren’t options for saving on the coil over conversions.
It’s also worth mentioning that both the RMS and the QA1 coil over conversions (w/ sway bar + engine mounts) are more expensive than the HDK by several hundred dollars. And neither has a manual rack option, so you’d have to buy the package, sell the power rack, and buy a manual rack, adding to the cost further.
JDMopar
Well-Known Member
Answering the OP's question and not joining the debate that will run 9 pages.......HDK all the way!
Here's what I paid for my front suspension, adjusted for todays prices. This mirrors 72bluNblu's with a few differences.
1.03" Torsion Bar - A Body
Proforged LWR ball joint (driver)- $56.85
1974 PLYMOUTH DUSTER Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Proforged LWR ball joint (passenger)- $56.85
1974 PLYMOUTH DUSTER Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
QA1 Stocker star NA shocks: $155.04 ea. total $310.08.
QA1 TN501 QA1 Stocker Star NA Shocks | Summit Racing
QA1 K-member: $820.95
QA1 52313 QA1 Mopar K-Members | Summit Racing
QA1 Upper control arm: $464.95 kit
QA1 52301 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
QA1 dynamic adjustable strut bars: $304.95 kit
QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
QA1 Heavy duty Tie rod sleeves: $89.95 pr.
QA1 52324 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
Pro-Forged Tie rod ends:
Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10268 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing $25.82 ea.
Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10289 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing $27.63 ea.
Total: $106.90
*QA1 front sway bar: $290.95 kit
QA1 52861 QA1 Sway Bars | Summit Racing
*For this to work with stock style LCA's you need to use 73+ LCA's with sway bar tab. I got lucky and found a pair off of a 73 Duster parts car that I got for free. I've seen some on Ebay go for about $250 to $350 range per pair.
Stock Lower control arms.
Welded my own reinforcement with steel bars: Material costs approx. $30.00
Pro-thane Control arm bushings:
Prothane Motion Control 4-205-BL Prothane Front Control Arm Bushings | Summit Racing $10.00, Already had new LCA shafts
Otherwise:
Proforged Control arm shaft kit: $124.95
Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10003 Proforged Control Arm Shaft Kits | Summit Racing
Energy suspension bushing kit. (I had an older set that I bought from someone else here awhile back, I didn't use all of it): $198.72
Energy Suspension 5.18104G Energy Suspension Hyperflex Bushing Kits | Summit Racing
Total: About $3041 if you have the stock 73+ LCA with sway bar tabs. Other wise: Approx. $3,440 - $3,560.
Also, I already had front disk brakes, so the spindles were not an issue. This is all for the front suspension, the rear I haven't hardly touched yet.
After all this and got my alignment done (additional $140 cost). The handling and ride significantly improved. The twisties up here in the mountains are so much fun now.
However the limiting factor right now is the stock 50+ yr old rear suspension. I did take her to a makeshift autocross course on an abandoned parking lot at the Deseret Depo (Former US Army National Guard post) and quickly hit the cars limit when I did some very spirited turns. Oof! (some cones were hurt in the process)
I'm currently still using stock manual steering, but will be putting in a Borgeson power steering in soon (I bought a lightly used unit from ebay 3 years ago for $500)
As stated earlier, I have not done anything with the rear yet:
So my next thing to do is replace the leaf springs, bushings and install rear sway-bar while swapping in the 8 3/4 I'm assembling now. Which isn't too bad cost wise.
I do have these that I bought for $275 a pair awhile back: (Mancini Racing Extra Heavy Duty rear leaf springs) now they're $325 a pr.
Mancini Racing Extra Heavy Duty Leaf Spring Set
I do have but not installed a pair of rear bilstein shocks. $252.62 pr.
https://p-s-t.com/i-23160582-rear-bilstein-high-performance-shocks.html but for now I'm currently using old KYB shocks, ugh.
I'm also currently looking at options for rear sway bars.
I've also been looking at this:
QA1 R250-175 QA1 Mopar Rear Coilover Conversion Systems | Summit Racing a $2,484.95 cost. Oof.
PST 1.03" torsion bar: $2991.03" Torsion Bar - A Body
Proforged LWR ball joint (driver)- $56.85
1974 PLYMOUTH DUSTER Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10129 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
Proforged LWR ball joint (passenger)- $56.85
1974 PLYMOUTH DUSTER Proforged Chassis Parts 101-10128 Proforged Ball Joints | Summit Racing
QA1 Stocker star NA shocks: $155.04 ea. total $310.08.
QA1 TN501 QA1 Stocker Star NA Shocks | Summit Racing
QA1 K-member: $820.95
QA1 52313 QA1 Mopar K-Members | Summit Racing
QA1 Upper control arm: $464.95 kit
QA1 52301 QA1 Mopar Control Arms | Summit Racing
QA1 dynamic adjustable strut bars: $304.95 kit
QA1 52311 QA1 Dynamic Adjustable Strut Bars | Summit Racing
QA1 Heavy duty Tie rod sleeves: $89.95 pr.
QA1 52324 QA1 Heavy-Duty Tie Rod Sleeves | Summit Racing
Pro-Forged Tie rod ends:
Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10268 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing $25.82 ea.
Proforged Chassis Parts 104-10289 Proforged Tie Rod Ends | Summit Racing $27.63 ea.
Total: $106.90
*QA1 front sway bar: $290.95 kit
QA1 52861 QA1 Sway Bars | Summit Racing
*For this to work with stock style LCA's you need to use 73+ LCA's with sway bar tab. I got lucky and found a pair off of a 73 Duster parts car that I got for free. I've seen some on Ebay go for about $250 to $350 range per pair.
Stock Lower control arms.
Welded my own reinforcement with steel bars: Material costs approx. $30.00
Pro-thane Control arm bushings:
Prothane Motion Control 4-205-BL Prothane Front Control Arm Bushings | Summit Racing $10.00, Already had new LCA shafts
Otherwise:
Proforged Control arm shaft kit: $124.95
Proforged Chassis Parts 120-10003 Proforged Control Arm Shaft Kits | Summit Racing
Energy suspension bushing kit. (I had an older set that I bought from someone else here awhile back, I didn't use all of it): $198.72
Energy Suspension 5.18104G Energy Suspension Hyperflex Bushing Kits | Summit Racing
Total: About $3041 if you have the stock 73+ LCA with sway bar tabs. Other wise: Approx. $3,440 - $3,560.
Also, I already had front disk brakes, so the spindles were not an issue. This is all for the front suspension, the rear I haven't hardly touched yet.
After all this and got my alignment done (additional $140 cost). The handling and ride significantly improved. The twisties up here in the mountains are so much fun now.
However the limiting factor right now is the stock 50+ yr old rear suspension. I did take her to a makeshift autocross course on an abandoned parking lot at the Deseret Depo (Former US Army National Guard post) and quickly hit the cars limit when I did some very spirited turns. Oof! (some cones were hurt in the process)
I'm currently still using stock manual steering, but will be putting in a Borgeson power steering in soon (I bought a lightly used unit from ebay 3 years ago for $500)
As stated earlier, I have not done anything with the rear yet:
So my next thing to do is replace the leaf springs, bushings and install rear sway-bar while swapping in the 8 3/4 I'm assembling now. Which isn't too bad cost wise.
I do have these that I bought for $275 a pair awhile back: (Mancini Racing Extra Heavy Duty rear leaf springs) now they're $325 a pr.
Mancini Racing Extra Heavy Duty Leaf Spring Set
I do have but not installed a pair of rear bilstein shocks. $252.62 pr.
https://p-s-t.com/i-23160582-rear-bilstein-high-performance-shocks.html but for now I'm currently using old KYB shocks, ugh.
I'm also currently looking at options for rear sway bars.
I've also been looking at this:
QA1 R250-175 QA1 Mopar Rear Coilover Conversion Systems | Summit Racing a $2,484.95 cost. Oof.
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abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
at over 4K, 900 bucks is nothing at that point in my opinion..the way people talk about price difference you would thing its 2500 dollars different. plus i think most doing the swaps are going power steering anyway.
lots of "if's" there
i think if you call, rms would sell a manual rack. not 100% sure thouh. i had a kit with a manual rack originally. changed it to power. i'd think most go power anyway which is why they probably don't list them. not sure why someone would do all that stuff and go manual anyway..
This right here. 100%
Also to add, I've been daily driving my Duster since 2015. And I have been buying and updating suspension components one bit at a time, something that is easier (and cheaper) to do than the coilovers.
I did the QA1 UCA's in June and the K-member in September of 2016.
I installed bigger torsion bars, welded reinforcement tabs on the LCA's, tie-rod sleeves and ends in 2019.
Installed the sway bar in 2020.
Upgraded the front shocks in 2021 (KYB's with bigger torsion bars and QA1 goodies was just horrible)
The QA1 adjustable strut bars was installed in 2024.
Good point. A coil over conversion is all in cost wise, at the time of install. Upgrading a stock system can be an incremental effort if you need to work on a budget.
A coil over system will drop some pounds off the nose of the car with increased steering feel, both a definite positive. However, it may also give up some rigidity and allow more chassis flex which aren't desirable traits.
if you need to change spring rates for an activity, coil over springs can be found at any swap meet for $50 a pair. T-Bars are going to run you $500 a pair new.
A coil over system will drop some pounds off the nose of the car with increased steering feel, both a definite positive. However, it may also give up some rigidity and allow more chassis flex which aren't desirable traits.
if you need to change spring rates for an activity, coil over springs can be found at any swap meet for $50 a pair. T-Bars are going to run you $500 a pair new.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
thats a great way for someone who doesn't mind doing things more then once. others like to do it once and be done. no wrong way. me if i choose to do something i gather all the parts then do it. it may take a year + to save, sell to buy all that stuf, but i'm doing it once and being done with it..
yea man, shocks make a huge difference. i went from 1" bars and 130 pound leafs with kyb shocks to to 1.08 bars with the same leafs and billstein shocks all the way around and the difference was incredible.
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
For the most part, if you aren't actually changing any suspension geometry, it doesn't really matter what kind of system you use. If the coil over setup and the torsion bar setup maintain the same hardpoints for suspension connections (control arm pivots, steering pivots, ball joint locations, etc.), the suspension is going to have very similar handling characteristics. Coil springs can give you some interesting tuning options with variable rate springs and stuff like that that torsion bars can't, but that's about the only real difference between them. So saying a coil spring suspension is better than a torsion bar suspension isn't really all that valid of an argument at all to me.
Quality of components is then the next main point of contention. If the stock stuff is limp garbage that flexes under any kind of load, then it would make sense that aftermarket systems would be "better" just in the sense that the suspension can actually do what it is designed to do as you wouldn't have compliance everywhere throwing the geometry off. However, I think most agree that the factory components are generally pretty stout pieces and if not, can be modified with limited investment to get them there (like welded lower control arms).
So the last main comparison I see between them is "feel", which is going to be subjective to everyone and somewhat driven by what your use case is. Replacing every bushing in the car with near solid stuff is going to get you closer to that 10/10ths driving experience, but at the cost of comfort and general wear and tear. I picked my upper control arms largely because I wanted something that still used compliant bushings because my car is a daily driver. Going with heim joints or delrin would likely offer an even more positive feel, but at the cost of driving more of that load back into the chassis and mounting points. There's no wrong answer here though, it all just comes down to what you want your car to do. Both systems could be made to work with either bushing setup.
I think the main thing it all boils down to is whether you want rack and pinion steering and more room for headers or other stuff under the car. No doubt rack and pinion is a very enticing upgrade. Steering boxes have come a long way, and faster ratios make them feel much more like modern cars than they did off the showroom floor, but I think it's hard to beat the feel you can get out of a rack and pinion setup. Clearance for headers is another big one, especially on the driver's side. There's a lot potentially going on over there, so not having a 3 foot long piece of steel running in your way certainly could make things easier.
Quality of components is then the next main point of contention. If the stock stuff is limp garbage that flexes under any kind of load, then it would make sense that aftermarket systems would be "better" just in the sense that the suspension can actually do what it is designed to do as you wouldn't have compliance everywhere throwing the geometry off. However, I think most agree that the factory components are generally pretty stout pieces and if not, can be modified with limited investment to get them there (like welded lower control arms).
So the last main comparison I see between them is "feel", which is going to be subjective to everyone and somewhat driven by what your use case is. Replacing every bushing in the car with near solid stuff is going to get you closer to that 10/10ths driving experience, but at the cost of comfort and general wear and tear. I picked my upper control arms largely because I wanted something that still used compliant bushings because my car is a daily driver. Going with heim joints or delrin would likely offer an even more positive feel, but at the cost of driving more of that load back into the chassis and mounting points. There's no wrong answer here though, it all just comes down to what you want your car to do. Both systems could be made to work with either bushing setup.
I think the main thing it all boils down to is whether you want rack and pinion steering and more room for headers or other stuff under the car. No doubt rack and pinion is a very enticing upgrade. Steering boxes have come a long way, and faster ratios make them feel much more like modern cars than they did off the showroom floor, but I think it's hard to beat the feel you can get out of a rack and pinion setup. Clearance for headers is another big one, especially on the driver's side. There's a lot potentially going on over there, so not having a 3 foot long piece of steel running in your way certainly could make things easier.
Funny story.
Earlier, about 7 months ago I was talking to a co-worker about cars and such. He being a hardcore chevy guy (but one of those paper-pusher, never touched a wrench or changed his own oil type).
He asked some questions about my car and when the subject came about me updating my torsion bars and stuff, he didn't quite understand that how they functioned.
So I gave him the basic low-down on how they work, his comment was like that "Sounds like old technology and that the handling and ride would be horrible."
I then said "How does your truck handle and ride?" He said great, I then had to break the news, told him his 2022 Silverado (2500HD Duramax to be exact) is actually a torsion bar suspension as well...
His response was like "Oh... shows what I know." It's fair I told him, I'm a big gearhead and he's not. He's big into sailboats, so I'll be picking his brains about that since I'm curious.
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