Beyond Frustrated - Wont start/stay running

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Could the cap have been cocked on the distributor body? I guess anything is really possible. But if the cap was cocked would that be due to a manufacturing error on the part itself? or be an installation error on my part? Because if it was cocked, you wouldnt be able to get the straps on, correct?

And I dont think the cap wasnt indexed properly. the indexing on the distributor body isnt adjustable(?). But again, I guess it could have been. If it wasnt indexed properly, would you still be able to get both straps installed?
 
Have you examined the points to see if the points are clean and flat or if there is a 'tit' of material on one side? I think you checked dwell, but you should also check the points gap with a feeler gauge when the points are at their maximum opening; they should be open around .018-.022".

Can I make a suggestion to check your spark without a spark tester? Make one yourself. Pull the spark wire coming from the coil from the center post on the distributor cap, and place the open metal end about 1/4" to 3/8" from metal (valve cover or fender). Crank and watch the spark; it ought to be a bright blue, not a weak yellow. If you get the bright blue spark, then you know that your coil, condensor, and most of the wiring is OK. This does not check the ballast, however.

Also, what do you have for a ballast resistor? There are many types of ballast and most are wrong for the Mopar system. The only ones worth using are the MSD that is 0.8 ohms cold, and the BWD RU19. If you have an ohmmeter, measure the ballast resistor cold; place the meter leads together first and note the resistance of the leads by themselves, and then measure the ballast with one end disconnected from the car. If it is much more than 1 ohm cold, then get one like listed above. The original was 0.5-0.6 ohms cold.

Also, your coil primary resistance should be around 1.5 ohms. There are some 3 ohm coils out there and they are wrong for a system with a ballast in them. You can measure this across the + and - terminals of the coil with them disconnected from the car.

And if you do have that ohmmeter, there are some other checks to run but I don't know of you even have an ohmmeter. A decent volt-ohmmeter will pay for itself fast when troubleshooting this vintage of car.
 
nm9theham,

Thank you for your suggestions. I know when I removed the points during this whole fiasco that there was a "tilt" of material on one side. What does that indicate? and I did not check the max opening of the points. I take it I have to bump the starter until the points are being pushed up by the lobe on the distributor shaft?

Pulling the coil wire off of the distributor cap and placing it to a bare piece of metal sounds simple and quick to do. I will try and get to that tonight. Thank you

I do have a multimeter that can measure amps, voltage and ohms. Again measuring those areas sound simple. I will try and get to that tonight. Thank you.
 
Good; that meter will tell you a lot. The tests are made to be simple and tell you a lot. The coil resistance test may tell a bad coil but will not show one that is arcing internally. But you have probably eliminated that with substituting a new coil. It just remains to see if you have the correct coil(s).

A 'tit' is due to a metal transfer from one side of the points to the other. A big one can be caused by a poor/bad condensor. It ought to be filed off with a suuuuuper fine file or emery cloth; there used to be 'points files' sold for this.

Yes, crank the engine or turn it by hand to get the points at maximum opening to check the gap. If you get close and stop where the points are in the process of opening, you can turn the rotor by hand to get them to open to the peak. This check really should just compliment the dwell measurements; adjusting points gap is how you adjust dwell. But it is an easy and reliable back-up check to your dwell meter; if the right gap and right dwell are not occurring at the same time, then that may point to the nubs/lobes on the distributor shaft being worn down, or some issue in the points action. I raced cars on points for 10+ years and never had a dwell meter; I just set points gap and it was always good.

One other easy thing to do: Rotate the engine so the timing mark is at TDC, and look at the rotor to see that it is pointing close to one of the spark towers. It should not be more than 10-15 degrees away from one tower. This would tell you if the cap and rotor are indexed properly.

When it does start, does it run smoothly for a few seconds and then start to sputter and then die? That almost sounds like a fuel problem. Does the accelerator pump squirt fuel every time you open the throttle by hand while you look down the carb throat? And does this carb have a choke plate?

And if you can afford a new set of plugs, please do so. Even some cheap Autolites would be worth it at this point.
 
nm9stheham said:
Good; that meter will tell you a lot. The tests are made to be simple and tell you a lot. The coil resistance test may tell a bad coil but will not show one that is arcing internally. But you have probably eliminated that with substituting a new coil. It just remains to see if you have the correct coil(s).

A 'tit' is due to a metal transfer from one side of the points to the other. A big one can be caused by a poor/bad condensor. It ought to be filed off with a suuuuuper fine file or emery cloth; there used to be 'points files' sold for this.

Yes, crank the engine or turn it by hand to get the points at maximum opening to check the gap. If you get close and stop where the points are in the process of opening, you can turn the rotor by hand to get them to open to the peak. This check really should just compliment the dwell measurements; adjusting points gap is how you adjust dwell. But it is an easy and reliable back-up check to your dwell meter; if the right gap and right dwell are not occurring at the same time, then that may point to the nubs/lobes on the distributor shaft being worn down, or some issue in the points action. I raced cars on points for 10+ years and never had a dwell meter; I just set points gap and it was always good.

One other easy thing to do: Rotate the engine so the timing mark is at TDC, and look at the rotor to see that it is pointing close to one of the spark towers. It should not be more than 10-15 degrees away from one tower. This would tell you if the cap and rotor are indexed properly.

When it does start, does it run smoothly for a few seconds and then start to sputter and then die? That almost sounds like a fuel problem. Does the accelerator pump squirt fuel every time you open the throttle by hand while you look down the carb throat? And does this carb have a choke plate?

And if you can afford a new set of plugs, please do so. Even some cheap Autolites would be worth it at this point.
Click to expand...
dwell meters are handy, no doubt. But they can give erroneous reading. Kind of like computers, garbage in garbage out. If you didn't set the dwell meter for 6 cylinder, it would give erroneous reading. I concur with advice to check with feeler gauge.
 
rustycowll69 said:
dwell meters are handy, no doubt. But they can give erroneous reading. Kind of like computers, garbage in garbage out. If you didn't set the dwell meter for 6 cylinder, it would give erroneous reading. I concur with advice to check with feeler gauge.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much why I suggested the gap check.... in case the dwell meter was acting up.
 
Comments in the quote

carfreak6970 said:
As the title suggests, I am at my wits end...

So some background on the car: I "finished" (they are never really finished) the restoration on this vehicle back in 2008. Its a 68 Dodge Dart Convertible with a 225 slant six and the 904 TF. At which point the engine was rebuilt back to stock specs- cam, pistons, boring, timing chain, bearings, carb rebuilt etc. The distributor gear was replaced 2-4 years ago. Fast forward to this spring: I did a tune up with new points, condenser, plugs, cap rotor and a couple other parts that wont have a bearing on this issue (like a steering gear, pitman arm and idler arm).

This past Sunday I was driving back from a church outing heading down the interstate here in Pittsburgh. I noticed a little "bucking" while driving. Basically the car wasnt moving as smooth as it normally does. Took my foot off the gas and felt the bucking stop, which tells me it was engine related. It started to get increasingly worse, to the point my passenger noticed it. At this time I was at an interchange and was going from one interstate road to the next via a 270 degree turn so I had to decrease speed. When the turn was ending onto the entrance ramp I needed to pick up speed. Well pressed the accelerator and the bucking continued and would not accelerate. Tried putting it in neutral to rev the engine to get it up to speed, that didnt work, further clarification that it was an engine problem. So I pulled off to the side of the road and there we sat.

Once on the side of the road I started checking a few things. The car would not start, just crank. depression of the throttle linkage gave me gas from the accelerator pump, so I know I was getting fuel through the line, past the filter and into the carb (the gas that was in the car was maybe a week old, if that. Got the latest tank from Speedway). So that leads me to ignition. So call the old man and he suggests it is either Coil or condenser. Well I had a spare condenser so I figured Id try and change it out while we wait for the tow truck. Well I didnt have the metric wrench to get the nut off the points so I had to remove the points to get a socket on that nut. Well in the process of this, I dropped those screws numerous of times, and one time it fell in the distributor... So I removed the distributor to basically fish that screw out. After turning it upside down and shaking it a little it came out. Well i got the distributor back in and everything back together for the tow truck guy to come. Needless to say it wouldnt start...

So that puts us where I have been pulling my hair out these past three nights not getting enough sleep or food trying to get this damn thing running. So I changed the condenser and the coil and I am not having any luck what so ever. I took the valve cover off and visually inspected the closing of the intake valve to the timing mark on the damper. I also can crank the engine over and see that after all my fiddling around my timing is 5-8 BTC. Not optimal I know, but it should still run. I set the dwell to 40-43 deg. I can sometimes get it "running" Which means my foot has to be planted on the accelerator, and the engine is still stumbling on itself. No matter how I fluctuate the throttle it will always die and doesnt start again. I have a spark tester and I verified that all 6 plug wires are seeing spark. What am I missing?

Could I have shaken something lose in the distributor when I was shaking it? Which doesnt make sense, it was bucking and wouldnt start before I fiddled with it.

Could of it jumped timing? I dont believe so, but I guess anything is possible. This issue started out very faint than got worse. I was driving at a constant speed at the time this started so I dont see how the timing chain could of jumped.

Does anyone have any ideas on what I am missing? The old man says it could be cap, rotor or plugs. But all of that was changed. I didnt see any cracks in the cap.

I really dont have the money to keep buying the same tune up parts over and over again, so I would like to have a better idea of what the problem is without continually throwing money at it in hopes it rights itself.

I will be away from the car the next few days, which is probably a good thing, so I will be a little delayed with some answers to suggests/tests suggested.

Thank you from a defeated A body Owner...
Click to expand...

This is a classic low speed circuit issue.
Normally I would suggest polluted gas, as in water in the gas; but after all this goofing around, the water should have worked it's way out
Now the low speed circuit starts at the gas tank, same as all the other circuits. If you are sure that there is actually gas in the carb, that is half the battle. With known-to-be-good and pure gas in the carb, then, the rest of the circuit looks like this; float level,main well, idle well, emulsion tubes, idle air bleeds, transfer slots and idle discharge ports. Also included and very important is air/vacuum leaks,as well as valve lash.
Air/vacuum leaks are the most likely place to start, but with a non-running engine, this is supremely hard to test. So in this case I would check/adjust the valves first and follow it with a compression test. If an exhaust valve is burned up, then during cranking, the piston will suck air up the tailpipe cuz it's way easier for air to come in there than thru the carb. So if you get some low numbers with the compression tester, then have a helper crank the engine while you go put your palm over the tailpipe. If you feel the engine sucking on your palm, then the jig is up; time for a valve job. This only works if the exhaust system is reasonably tight as to leaks.
So after you have proved the compression is at least 110 at the minimum, and no valves are tight, try again.
If it still won't start, then I would check the cam timing. If the valves get out of time, then the ignition timing goes out with it, and then you get symptoms in red above. If you are able to reset the ignition timing but the valves are still late, you may be able to get it running with a lot of throttle, but it will have no power.But a simple test is to pinch the PCV shut, and the booster hose too, and disable the ignition system by disconnecting the ballast resistor.. Then have a helper open the carb about 1/4 throttle and crank the engine, while you put your hand over the airhorn. Only crank for 2 or 3 seconds. The engine should try to suck your hand down into the carb, and it should be sucking gas big time. Go dry off your hand. So if suction is strong then the cam timing is probably good.
So after the cam timing is proved to be correct, try again.
If it still won't start or it will with a lot of throttle, now we are left with a carb problem. So, go disconnect the choke system and make sure the valve stays open. Then splash a tablespoon of gas straight into the throttle valves. Then floor the pedal and twist the key. With just a bit of cranking the engine should spring to life, and rev right up. While it's clearing itself out, rev it up a couple of times.Then, back off gently so you don't blow it up, and keep it at a high idle, maybe 2500 for about a minute.See if she will take throttle; gently rev it up to 3500/4000. This will probably get her on the mainjet. If she takes it, then we know that the engine is probably OK and the main circuit too. Then begin to lower the rpm back to 2500.
But if she bucks at 3500, abort the test.

Continued in post #35
 
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AJ,

The more and more tests I do on the ignition system, I am getting a feeling there is something screwy about the carb. But as you quoted my first post, I felt a ever so slight bucking at first that only grew worse. To the point the car would not accelerate. It eventually died and couldn't and wouldnt start. Now the only things I replaced so far are the condenser, coil, ballast (which I still need to check the resistance on and the arcing as described above). And I am able to get it running, however short and how ever rough, but still, there is a glimmer of hope. Now does that still sound like a compression issue? or something wrong with the carb? I am not challenging you, I am just trying to understand so if this happens in the future the car isnt down and out for weeks at a time.

I understand what you are saying with cam timing and the such. But again, this engine was rebuilt (with a valve job) about 20,000-25,000 miles ago (about 10 years) by a reputable shop, how would it need another valve job by now? When ever I changed the plugs they always showed a good running engine. furthermore, if the valves are out of time that means the timing chain/gears went screwy, wouldnt the problems I encountered on the road happen differently than what I experienced in 2-3 miles at 70 mph? and if timing went that far off that it wouldnt want to start again, then how would I be able to get it started again? again, not challenging you, just trying to understand.

I appreciate your help
 
No problem, previous post edited.
Bucking is, I would like to say always, a lean-running issue.
What bucking really is , is a misfire, or really; a series of misfires. As in, there was not a combustible mixture in one or more cylinders . On a six cylinder there are three cylinders that fire,per revolution; so if one goes down, you really really notice it.And even more so if the engine has other issues.
Back to lean running;
But there are many many ways of running lean.
Running lean can be not enough fuel, or it can be too much air.
Bucking while cruising is almost always lean on the low-speed circuit.

I always suspect the fuel first. If there is water in it,then,when the water goes thru the low-speed circuit, then there is not much chance any fuel in that charge will combust. Same if water gets in there from another source, like the cooling system.
The next suspect is an uncontrolled air leak somewhere between the combustion chamber and the underside of the butterflies. This could be the PCV, or the brake booster, or a gasket, or a cracked intake manifold, or anything vacuum operated that is connected to the intake.
The next suspect is exhaust valves not closing. This could be a valve adjustment issue, or valve issue or valve spring.
The next suspect is a bad intake valve allowing the piston to push some of the intake charge back up into the intake manifold on the compression stroke. Then there is nothing, or not enough, mixture left in the chamber to combust,again.
And finally we have a jumped timing chain. Now all the valves will be running out of time, probably late, and so perhaps only a tiny bit of fuel charge makes it into the chamber, and only if the butterflies are wide open, and if the ignition timing is late too, then it's hopeless. I have never had a chain go on me while driving, and have no idea how that would manifest. I don't think that's your problem.
So that's the air part. Now the fuel;
Now more likely is that the low-speed circuit is dirty. It often manifests as a bucking. If the idle air-bleeds get plugged up, then the carb delivers liquid fuel out the transfers instead of an emulsion, and the liquid fuel likes to stick to everything, and so not all of it gets to the chamber. So now the cylinder is getting the right quantity of air, but the fuel is not there. And the fuel that does make it, is not interested in burning, and so it doesn't.There's your misfire.
Now in case you don't know about emulsion;
On the low speed circuit, with the throttle valve(s) nearly closed, The fuel needs to be partially mixed with air before it ever leaves the carb. This is because liquid fuel is hard to light on fire, in the cylinder, where the air molecules are few and far between, as at cruising.
So, inside the carb is a tube; one per throttle bore. Air sits all around the outside of the tube(or is supposed to,lol).The liquid fuel travels up the tube, on it's way to the transfer port and the mixture screws. On it's way, atmospheric pressure forces the air on the outside of the tube, thru a series of little holes drilled thru the tube, and into the inside of the tube where the fuel is traveling.And so it mixes with the fuel making a frothy mixture.This frothy mess is called an emulsion. When this frothy mixture leaves the transfer port, the air passing by there further smashes it all up and mixes into a combustible mixture.
It might be compared to your wife's frappe concoction when she makes pancakes. She beats the pancake mix with an egg-beater, and makes an emulsion out of it.When the pancakes are cooked, they are all full of air bubbles.
Think of it this way; your 225/6 has a volume 225/6=37.5 cubic inches per cylinder,plus the chamber. While cruising, with the butterfly nearly closed, that cylinder might ingest only 30% of it's rated displacement. But those air molecules are spread all around the chamber, so they are very far apart. And the fuel that came in with it is trying to find oxygen to react with. And so the piston comes up and jams it all into a little space about 5 cubic inches in volume, and the oxygen molecules are still quite far apart. Now if the fuel has not been emulsified, then it tends to stick together in big drops that maybe find oxygen and maybe not. And if it finds oxygen it might still not burn.
So Emulsion is paramount for the low-speed circuit to function.
 
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AJ,

Thank you for that information. I dont have time to run those tests this week. I may free up sometime on Sunday to look into those tests.

Rusty,

This engine was rebuild about 20,000-25,000 miles ago. At which point the rocker assembly was installed. The oil has been changed every other year, or about 6000 miles running on full synthetic. Now I believe the rockers were last adjusted about 10,000-15,000 miles ago. id have to check my little book to find out the exact number.

nm9stheham,

I ran some of the tests you suggested. I had a hellish time trying to get the points to be full open. But it appears I was falling within your .018-.022" range.

For the sake of the ohm tests mentioned below. My multi-meter was reading .6 ohms when I touched the wires together:
With the coil's negative and positive terminals disconnected (but the main coil wire still connected) I was getting a 1.8 ohm reading. Which I guess equals out to be 1.2 ohms. Which is a little below what you said, but no where near 3 ohms

So the original ballast resistor (which I have since changed out) was reading infinity (I guess that is the proper term, full open? not sure but yes I wasnt getting any ohm reading) with only one wire terminal connected. Interesting.
The one ballast resister I have in there now was giving me a 1.6 ohm reading with only one terminal connected. Which I guess equates to 1.0 ohms

Now the last test you suggested I do was to take the coil wire off of the cap and stick it to a valve cover bolt (or any bare metal surface) and crank the motor over looking for a blue spark. Now heres the thing. I was only able to get a complete blue spark when the wire connector was basically touching the bolt. When I had about .25"-.375" distance between the valve cover bolt and wire connector only the arc contact points were blue but the center portion of the are was yellow.

What can we deduce from this?
 
OK, very good and glad you checked the lead resistance and accounted for that. The ballast sounds decently good at 1 ohm cold. And the coil is the right primary resistance to use with a ballast of this range. And OK, on the points gap; that verifies the dwell reading that you were getting.

The yellow spark does sound weak, and this could cause the poor running. Is the coil a new coil? If so, what brand/model?

Next, with your meter, measure the resistance of the coil wire, and then all of the spark plug wires. They typically will be in the range of 5000 to 10000 ohms, (5k to 10k).

Also, measure the voltage at the coil + when cranking.

And I am not clear: when you tested the condensor, did you actually mount a new one inside the distributor? And did the new condensor have a value, like so many 'uF' ?

Is the distributor clean at its base and touching clean metal in the block? Are the points screwed down properly? (Probably are...)

I am just thinking of all the ways in which the spark could be weak, some of which are uncommon issues.
 
And sneaky tip # 674
The condenser does not need to be mounted inside the dizzy. For testing purposes, you can just clip it anywhere in the circuit, and ground it.

And tip #675
The points have to snap open and snap shut,make and break.The contact made has to be instantaneous and complete. That means the contacts have to be FLAT and CLEAN. That's why they are called breaker points. When the get dirty or pitted, they will make your life miserable and break your patience.
And tip #832
When the cranking speed gets to be really slow, then the break time gets to be really long, and then the coil gets a really lousy charge and most of it leaks away through the condenser or wherever it can, and then it can appear that your coil is dying;when if fact, the cranking speed just needs to be increased.
And tip # 999
When I suspect a weak point-type ignition, I remove the cap from the D and jam a piece of clean,dry paper between the points, so they have to remain apart. Then I put a 3ft jumper on the coil neg.. Then I get my 15" flat bastard file and lay that on a good ground. Then I remove the coil hi-tension wire from the cap and near-ground it.Then I make sure the battery is at a strong level. Then I clip the free end of my jumper onto an insulator while I go and turn the key to RUN. Then I take that free-end and lightly drag it across the file, while watching the coil wire. A stream of sparks should be issuing from it. That file is acting like a clean set of points and because the engine is not cranking,and the ballast is cold, there is a good supply voltage to the coil, very near to the battery's rest voltage. So then there should be a stream of sparks.
If there is not; then this is the time to suspect the condenser; just clip a new one into the circuit anywhere and ground the case. Then retest. If now you get the expected results, then wire the condenser in properly and retest. If now it works then turn off the key,put it all together, and finish up. But if it still doesn't work properly, check the D for point plate to engine block continuity. And the condenser to breaker continuity.Then retest.
That's what I do.

Lest you think you can do the same thing without the file, fugedabowdit!. You cannot make and break that circuit fast enough with muscle power,lol. It has to snap open and snap shut. Doing it by hand will just let the voltage all leak away. Electricity is waaay faster than you,lol.
 
nm9stheham,

The coil is brand new as of last week. I got it from advance auto. It is a BWD with a lifetime warranty.

I wont be able to measure the ohms of the coil wire and plug wires until later in the weekend, so I will try to report back on that early next week.

So measuring the voltage at the coil during cranking. How is that done? obviously you place one of the leads on the positive side of the coil. Do you place the other lead on the negative side? or just some other ground?

Well I didnt really "test" a condenser. What I did was just wire clip the lead of another condenser onto the negative side of the coil. However, that condenser was not grounded and was outside of the distributor during testing. I guess I can reattempt that test with the condenser grounded outside. Because if you look at my post #24, I got the same results with another condenser wired into the system (however I didnt ground said condenser) as I did without it wired in. I have no way of measuring "uF"

The points are screwed down as is a condenser in the distributor. That distributor has a adjustment bracket which is then bolted to the engine block. The negative battery cable is connecting the engine to the battery. I also have another ground wire going from a valve cover bolt to a bolt on the firewall.

My dad believes there may be an issue with the cap and rotor (pictures are in my post #24). I got another cap and rotor that I am going to try as well.




AJ,

As I just stated in my response to nm9stheham, I tried mounting a condenser outside of the distributor, but did not have that condenser grounded. So I am going to repeat the test with that condenser grounded.

When I looked at the points they appeared to be fine. They only have about 1000 miles on them since I just put this car though a tune up a couple months ago. But as a last ditch effort I could try and sand the contact surfaces down on the points. Your thoughts on that?

Yes I know another wave of issues comes in when the engine is cranking slow. Thats why I am trying to keep cranking to a minimum and keep the battery on a charger/tender

and that is a very simple point substitution test! appears fairly easy to test. I will try and get to that when I measure the resistance of the wires and check the voltage on the coil during cranking.

Thank you all for your help
 
The condenser case absolutely has to be grounded.

As hi-schoolers we used to charge those condensers up, and then you could carry them by the case. To discharge them we would just bend the short wire over towards the case and then ZZZZap, she would unload. Well, if you got someone's bodypart in-between there, well that came as a shock to them. Just don't do it in shop class, cuz the teacher was no dummy,lol.And he had a low tolerance for shenanigans.
If the points are that new, and the condenser was operating correctly, then they should be fine.
Sanding them is kindof an art, and takes great patience. It is impossible to do,with the points still mounted in the D, as installed on a slanty. It's hard enough on a SBM ,leaning over the fender. So I just take them out and over to the vise. Here I first make sure the contacts faces are parallel. Then,I use a fairly coarse emery paper, folded over on itself at least once , and making a narrow strip about 6 inches long and maybe 5/16 wide.Then I draw the sandpaper thru both contacts at the same time, keeping the points closed with the other hand, but just loose enough that the paper can do it's job. It only takes a few strokes to get the surfaces flat and shiny. Then I follow that with a 220 paper.Now comes the important part; you have to be sure that no emery particles end up stuck between the contacts, and then they have to be cleaned of oil. I use a blast of contact cleaner and shop air. After this, anything you put between those contacts has to be oil-free. ie, clean your feeler gauges.
And finally is the rubbing block. The older the points, the more worn off the rubbing block can get, especially if it was running dry. Eventually it can get so short that the gap can no longer be set to spec.
Then there is the no-small-matter of setting the gap. If the D has a lot of slop in the top bushing, setting the gap to spec can be a frustrating experience. This is why there is a dwell spec with a variance. But be of good cheer, the gap is a lot less critical then some would have you believe. There are three requirements that have to be met;1) the points have to snap open and snap shut. Open is most important.2) the coil needs time to charge up, so the longer the points are closed the better, that needs a small gap and 3) you don't want to be doing this every 1000 miles so that needs a wider gap, in case the rubbing block wears too fast. So the factory gives you a gap-spec, that they have determined will hit the targets. And a dwell-meter is a better tool than a feeler gauge on account of the dwell-meter works on a running engine, so you don't have to try and compensate for the top bushing wear.

Now, you can buy a point file, but I threw mine away years ago. Firstly they are fat. FAT! The contact faces end up not parallel when closed. And secondly, they are soft, and go dull very quickly. And thirdly, they are easily lost.
So for me, it's emery paper. Jut one sheet will last you a lifetime, it starts out as 8 x 11 which is hard to lose plus every shop has some, and even folded over it is pretty thin.
And BTW, emery paper is best. The grit size is more consistant and the grits stay on the paper, and the backing is thin and flexible enough that you can draw it thru the contacts in a sort of arc, without breaking/tearing it.
Those contacts are very hard.Garnet paper will cut them, with more strokes, but the garnet particles are not glued onto the backing very well. They come off and make a mess, and you have to be extra careful to get them all gone. If circumstances dictate using it, for sure take the points out of the D! You don't want those particles floating around in there.
 
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Tip #555. If your meter is vintage analog, look for a thumb wheel to zero the meter while holding the leads together on the resistance (ohms) setting. Not sure if I learned that in shop class.
 
If nobody's yet mentioned it, remove and inspect/test-while-flexing the single thin wire that goes from the breaker points to the coil's (-) terminal. If it's internally broken or it's grounding out, or its points-end terminal is too close to any of the nearby grounds in the distributor, it'll cause the symptoms you're dealing with.

(Points are an obsolete PITA. See HEI upgrade )
 
Thank you for all the responses.

So I did some of the tests mentioned above. I checked the resistance of the plug wires and the coil wire with the Ohm meter set to 200K:

1 - 10.2
2 - 9.2
3 - 6.8
4 - 7.2
5 - 8.7
6 - 12.6
coil wire - 10.9
- the differences make sense due to the different lengths.

I also disconnected the wire from the negative terminal of the coil that goes to the distributor and set the meter to 20K. I got a reading of 2.4 ohms no mater which way I twisted the wire.

Yes I know points are obsolete. This whole situation has me definitely thinking of switching to some electronic ignition. there is a lot of good information on this site, I just havent had the chance to check it out and research to make up my mind.

I believe it was my post 26 that I posted pictures of the cap and rotor? well from those pictures I ended up getting a new cap and rotor and installed them. Cranked the engine over and it fired. then stalled. So i cranked it again and held the throttle down. Here you could hear the engine's rpm increase linearly like it normally would then there would be a sharp drop in rpm before it would increase again. It was a cyclic pattern and after a little bit the engine died. Took a lot more cranking to get it started again but it did, did the same pattern and died.

at this I was at a loss and called my old man. So after some discussion and getting the engine to do that pattern again, it was deemed it was still ignition. Since every part of the ignition was verified ok but the distributor, we decided to pull that. Well with the distributor being out for the 4th-5th time I actually inspected the damn thing and this is when I noticed the plastic distributor gear was missing 2 teeth!! now this gear has only been in the car since 2013 and had about 12,000-15,000 miles on it. However I have no idea how long that thing was sitting on a shelf somewhere nor the conditions of said shelf. So I will from this point forward pull the distributor everytime I change plugs and change out that damn gear.

I didnt have the correct spring pin to secure a new gear in, but I got that today. I also noticed that the negative post on the coil was stripped, so I am going to exchange that tomorrow (lifetime warranty). So Fingers crossed I should have positive news tomorrow.
 
Did you install the new gear using the proedure outlined here.....you cant use the existing hole on the gear like youd think you should be able too.
 
When it dropped in RPM and finally died, did it sputter or just act like it was cutting off?

Interesting on the missing gear teeth.... Lord knows how the timing may have been varying all over the map... it sure needs to be fixed.

Here is the thread referred to above:
distributor gear replacing
 
OH MY LORD!!!

That makes perfect sense on why it failed then! we didnt use that procedure when I put on a new distributor gear. Which also makes sense that the oil pick up was full of plastic teeth when I rebuilt the engine. People continuously installing that nylon gear incorrectly. Dang, Thank you very much!! I will hopefully have this puppy drilled and installed tonight!
 
carfreak6970 said:
OH MY LORD!!!

That makes perfect sense on why it failed then! we didnt use that procedure when I put on a new distributor gear. Which also makes sense that the oil pick up was full of plastic teeth when I rebuilt the engine. People continuously installing that nylon gear incorrectly. Dang, Thank you very much!! I will hopefully have this puppy drilled and installed tonight!
Click to expand...
Some/most of those pieces are very often parts of valve seals
 
So... I got good news and I got bad news....

First the good news. After changing out the gear, getting another coil (since I stripped one of the posts on the other new one I got), and some screwing around I finally got this thing started! Which was nice. However this leads me into the bad news.

Bad news:
So it is still sputtering. This car always sputtered since I got it on the road in 2008. However the sputter would only be at idle, now it is doing it under acceleration, cruising speed etc. I wanted to get a video of it but with the way the last few weeks have been I figured getting it running was a good place to stop for the night. So I will try and explain what was going on:

So I have the dwell set at approximately 43 degrees, my initial timing with the vacuum advance connected is 15 deg BTC, idles at 720 RPM and I was running about 21 inches of mercury at idle (vacuum gauge was plugged onto the choke release port). Now if you go to the tail pipe you can hear the sputter in the exhaust. It is not cyclic, but random. Which tells me it is not one specific cylinder. So while under the hood and taking in all the information I can, I saw when the car sputtered (this is all at idle) the RPM's would bounce up to 750 all the way to 820-850. During the sputter the vacuum gauge would dip from 21 to about 20.8-20.5 inches of mercury. Also during the sputter I would see the timing jump from 15 deg BTC to approximately 20-30 deg ATC (This is a guess since I only have the stock timing mark on the damper and timing chain cover). What would cause this issue?

Thinking about this while I am typing I kind of over looked this fact with my sleep deprived mind that the vacuum advance was not plugged and I may actually have a lot less initial timing than what I stated above. Which kind of makes sense... I almost got rid of my idle sputtering issue before by increasing timing (however I never had this sputter issue while driving until now). My old man thinks its carburetor. The carb was rebuilt back in 2007, and has about 20000-25000 miles on it. However knowing what I do now, The cleaning I put it through may not have been adequate (which was spraying the living hell out of it with carb cleaner and scrubbing it in a parts washer. Which neither really address the issue off cleaning out all the air tubes that probably have 50 some years of build up in them. Dont know for sure if that is the case, but just an idea) and the ethanol in the fuel probably isnt helping matters.

So I should probably retry taking all these values with the vacuum advance blocked off, but does anyone have any idea on why this car is sputtering at idle and now under load? If my description doesnt make sense and you would like a video, please let me know... I would try my best to get one made tonight.
 
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