Big Block power with better heads???

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Crutchybilt_Per

Crutchybilt_Per

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So guys, I have a great question for you, going to test the waters. We have recently submitted a paten to cast a new block for the Mopar world. This is only an idea right now and the engineering is under way so some feedback would be great. We lack good cylinder heads to keep up with big block chevys. Some will say bore spacing will fix that, but at the end of the day we are plagued with larger versions of small block chevy wedge style heads. With the lines being blurred every day between what is considered factory and what is aftermarkert and with product allegiance being a big deal we came up with an idea. We are looking to cast a new block that will accept a big block chevy head. The reasoning is this; we can make more power at a better price. Used heads are falling out of the sky and why not make a cheaper alternative and make more power in the end. The distributor would not be moved and with the release years ago of the predator head, this would be the same route, just much much cheaper for the end user.

Let me know what you guys think of this idea, in a full tilt race car who would be upset and who would like this alternative.
 
In my personal opinion which may be worth nothing because you sound more competent than myself when it comes to engineering such an idea, I think you would have a very narrow market to sell these, I was a Mopar guy years ago then converted to Chevy for several years and realized the error of my ways and now I am all Mopar once again, I am proud of my Mopars and wouldn't want to cross breed any of them with a Chevy race or not, lot of guys I am sure are purists like myself and take pride in mopar. I can see the idea and respect your ambition and you sound like an accomolished engine builder and or machinist, I am pretty sure I have seen big Chief pontiac heads used on big block Chevys before because they build more power? Maybe retro fit the new LS 427 or LS7 heads to the Mopar they are much better and make more power than the old style gen 2 big block heads and smaller. I don't think I could fit big block Chevy heads between my a body inner fenders anyway so you may be limited to full tube chassis cars thus limiting your selling market even more??? Also if a guy is going to spend big money on a new version block he probably isnt going to buy some used BBC heads off of the internet not knowing if they are cracked, milled etc. Just food for thought. Please don't be offended, I know submitting a patten is a headache and cost money as well.
 
Carnut76 said:
In my personal opinion which may be worth nothing because you sound more competent than myself when it comes to engineering such an idea, I think you would have a very narrow market to sell these, I was a Mopar guy years ago then converted to Chevy for several years and realized the error of my ways and now I am all Mopar once again, I am proud of my Mopars and wouldn't want to cross breed any of them with a Chevy race or not, lot of guys I am sure are purists like myself and take pride in mopar. I can see the idea and respect your ambition and you sound like an accomolished engine builder and or machinist, I am pretty sure I have seen big Chief pontiac heads used on big block Chevys before because they build more power? Maybe retro fit the new LS 427 or LS7 heads to the Mopar they are much better and make more power than the old style gen 2 big block heads and smaller. I don't think I could fit big block Chevy heads between my a body inner fenders anyway so you may be limited to full tube chassis cars thus limiting your selling market even more??? Also if a guy is going to spend big money on a new version block he probably isnt going to buy some used BBC heads off of the internet not knowing if they are cracked, milled etc. Just food for thought. Please don't be offended, I know submitting a patten is a headache and cost money as well.
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I agree with this.

Besides, any full tilt, full blown racer with the kind of money to buy a custom block and heads is gonna have better luck and make more power with a full race hemi.
 
Carnut76 said:
In my personal opinion which may be worth nothing because you sound more competent than myself when it comes to engineering such an idea, I think you would have a very narrow market to sell these, I was a Mopar guy years ago then converted to Chevy for several years and realized the error of my ways and now I am all Mopar once again, I am proud of my Mopars and wouldn't want to cross breed any of them with a Chevy race or not, lot of guys I am sure are purists like myself and take pride in mopar. I can see the idea and respect your ambition and you sound like an accomolished engine builder and or machinist, I am pretty sure I have seen big Chief pontiac heads used on big block Chevys before because they build more power? Maybe retro fit the new LS 427 or LS7 heads to the Mopar they are much better and make more power than the old style gen 2 big block heads and smaller. I don't think I could fit big block Chevy heads between my a body inner fenders anyway so you may be limited to full tube chassis cars thus limiting your selling market even more??? Also if a guy is going to spend big money on a new version block he probably isnt going to buy some used BBC heads off of the internet not knowing if they are cracked, milled etc. Just food for thought. Please don't be offended, I know submitting a patten is a headache and cost money as well.
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I appreciate your stance on this sir, no offense is taken. I personally am a Mopar guy myself, but I see a lot of issues making big power with a wedge head. You can always build a hemi for sure, but that is usually out of someones price range. I think it would be a great idea and yes it will probably be a small market, but we always try to build a better mouse trap if you will. It just gets old building a 540 Mopar for example and then putting it next to a run of the mill BBC and being down 100 HP just because our heads suck lol. Thank you again for your input. It is greatly appreciated.
 
I think if you can make it work with other popular aftermarket heads then do it. From a business perspective, if the black is a quality piece then you have a larger market to buy your block than just Mopar head owners. You can always cast a second version to accept big block Mopar heads when funds permit or reverse the order.
 
Crutchybilt_Per said:
I appreciate your stance on this sir, no offense is taken. I personally am a Mopar guy myself, but I see a lot of issues making big power with a wedge head. You can always build a hemi for sure, but that is usually out of someones price range. I think it would be a great idea and yes it will probably be a small market, but we always try to build a better mouse trap if you will. It just gets old building a 540 Mopar for example and then putting it next to a run of the mill BBC and being down 100 HP just because our heads suck lol. Thank you again for your input. It is greatly appreciated.
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Im not even sure where to start on this statement. BBCs vs BBM really, there's not much difference power wise. I think it was hotrod magazine who did a side by side comparison BBC VS BBM with the same compression ratio etc and found both were dang near identical powerwise. With very similar torque curves.

Plus with heads like the trick flows and others, BBM wedge heads are flowing pretty darn well now a days.
 
Rocket said:
I think if you can make it work with other popular aftermarket heads then do it. From a business perspective, if the black is a quality piece then you have a larger market to buy your block than just Mopar head owners. You can always cast a second version to accept big block Mopar heads when funds permit or reverse the order.
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I appreciate your input sir, thank you.
 
Every time this comes up I think of the Stage V Hemi heads for wedge blocks or the ball-stud hemi design....... either of which require different cam configuration because you go back to the evenly spaced ports like the old poly engines...
 
Is this a problem? Most BBM I see outperform BBC. Or at least perform as well. I never thought BBM power was a problem these days.

But I am a "what the heck" kinda guy. If you've started it. Take it all the way. See what you can get out of it.
 
dukeboy_318 said:
Im not even sure where to start on this statement. BBCs vs BBM really, there's not much difference power wise. I think it was hotrod magazine who did a side by side comparison BBC VS BBM with the same compression ratio etc and found both were dang near identical powerwise. With very similar torque curves.

Plus with heads like the trick flows and others, BBM wedge heads are flowing pretty darn well now a days.
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While I would agree with you up to a certain power level, as Mopar guys we do not share the same luxuries that the brand x guys do. Now at the end of the day it would not be a BBC head, it would be a BB3 head from Brodix for example. We don't currently have a head that will stay with a BBC head anywhere on the market. Even the predator heads are not as good as a spread port from Brodix for example. Some of these heads flow in excess of 500 cfm. We struggle to get above 400. More so for dragster guys and heads up racers as well as some of the sportsman guys who don't want to ring an engines neck out to make power. I personally have a 540'' with very well prepped 572-13's. Don't get me wrong I love that engine, but she is not exactly strong compared to a lot of 540 chevys. I build all of them because that is the business I am in. I have long wished for a real cylinder head that wasn't a fortune to buy. I mean you can still get b1's and they are decent. But a PSO head will cost you 15 grand once they are complete. BBC heads can be purchased for half of that and make the PSO's look stupid lol. This is merely a stand point of making good power at a more economical stand point. Yes we have the Hemi, but a lot of guys are wedge guys or non hemi all together. If there is an alternative to make more power at a better price I would like to know if there is a market for it. But you make many good points yourself sir. I am most certainly not wanting to make a pissing contest in any way what so ever. LOL if its a bad idea or nobody wants it I figured we would get a good gauge from a site like this. I love my Mopars, always will. There is only one thing I love more, that's winning and giving my customers the absolute best they ask for. If we did this and only sold one and didn't lose our *** and made someone happy, I would call it a success from a personal stand point. Thank you for your input sir, I greatly appreciate it.
 
Lustle said:
Is this a problem? Most BBM I see outperform BBC. Or at least perform as well. I never thought BBM power was a problem these days.

But I am a "what the heck" kinda guy. If you've started it. Take it all the way. See what you can get out of it.
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Actually these days, BBM's are down compared to BBC's. They are easier to make power out of. Hemi to BBC is another story, but a wedge engine these days can not hang with a BBC and that is something I was interested in fixing.
 
mguner said:
Every time this comes up I think of the Stage V Hemi heads for wedge blocks or the ball-stud hemi design....... either of which require different cam configuration because you go back to the evenly spaced ports like the old poly engines...
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I agree with this, I was thinking the same thing but in my response I was trying to stay with the premise of retrofitting BBC heads to a redesigned block, I would redesign a new Mopar head with a different angle for better flow or fit a new Hellcat style Hemi head. If you build a new block with different spacing to fit a BBC head do you still have a Mopar or a Morphodite?
 
mguner said:
Every time this comes up I think of the Stage V Hemi heads for wedge blocks or the ball-stud hemi design....... either of which require different cam configuration because you go back to the evenly spaced ports like the old poly engines...
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The cam would not be an issue really, with custom cams and pistons being the norm even in bracket racing these days it becomes a wash. The benefit in our opinion would be a far greater selection of cylinder heads as well as a large amount of better heads. Be it they are new or used, options for a Mopar guy, or gal, is what we really like to be honest.
 
Carnut76 said:
I agree with this, I was thinking the same thing but in my response I was trying to stay with the premise of retrofitting BBC heads to a redesigned block, I would redesign a new Mopar head with a different angle for better flow or fit a new Hellcat style Hemi head. If you build a new block with different spacing to fit a BBC head do you still have a Mopar or a Morphodite?
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Eh, Morphodite would be a pretty good way to put it lol. Bore spacing would be one advantage for sure. I only considered doing a block for two reasons. One you cant get a block right now to save your life unless its aluminum. Two all the big companys have done the work for us with heads. Blocks would be far easier because you are only housing the components of the rotator. Heads are a whole other ball of wax, air does funny things at speed. It is far greater to design a quality head, a lot of times clean air wins, so you can have a head that flows more air, but makes less power because it is inherently a bad design if that makes any sense sir. at the end of the day, this is a touchy subject for sure. One that draws many opinions to say the least. I guess the question is would it be worth it to enough people to try.....
 
Crutchybilt_Per said:
Eh, Morphodite would be a pretty good way to put it lol. Bore spacing would be one advantage for sure. I only considered doing a block for two reasons. One you cant get a block right now to save your life unless its aluminum. Two all the big companys have done the work for us with heads. Blocks would be far easier because you are only housing the components of the rotator. Heads are a whole other ball of wax, air does funny things at speed. It is far greater to design a quality head, a lot of times clean air wins, so you can have a head that flows more air, but makes less power because it is inherently a bad design if that makes any sense sir. at the end of the day, this is a touchy subject for sure. One that draws many opinions to say the least. I guess the question is would it be worth it to enough people to try.....
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If it wasn't for guys like you trying to "build a better mousetrap" we would not have the selection of aftermarket Hi Perf items that are available to us, it's good to have fresh ideas and different angles, after all this is how Hot Rodding all started back in the day right?
 
Carnut76 said:
If it wasn't for guys like you trying to "build a better mousetrap" we would not have the selection of aftermarket Hi Perf items that are available to us, it's good to have fresh ideas and different angles, after all this is how Hot Rodding all started back in the day right?
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Thank you for the kind words sir. Like I said this is a touchy subject and I can hear the chevy guys bragging about using their heads, but at the end of the day, with the high performance stuff built anymore, little to nothing is used that came out of any of the big three's doors, we feel its truly nuts and bolts anymore.
 
Crutchybilt_Per said:
Thank you for the kind words sir. Like I said this is a touchy subject and I can hear the chevy guys bragging about using their heads, but at the end of the day, with the high performance stuff built anymore, little to nothing is used that came out of any of the big three's doors, we feel its truly nuts and bolts anymore.
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This! I agree a 100%. I say go for it. I don't see the bad side of having more options for the Mopar guys. I've heard of a few racers selling their wedge, hemi, and predator motors to switch to BBC due to cost.

And I look forward to seeing that G body at the yellow bullet. I wish you guys luck!
 
twayne24365 said:
This! I agree a 100%. I say go for it. I don't see the bad side of having more options for the Mopar guys. I've heard of a few racers selling their wedge, hemi, and predator motors to switch to BBC due to cost.

And I look forward to seeing that G body at the yellow bullet. I wish you guys luck!
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Thanks man, we are really close to having the 8.50 index figured out. This year we will be giving them hell. Johns car is one bad *** piece for a tiny engine. I keep telling him when he is ready to make it run we will put a BBM in it and he always laughs at me.
 
Interesting... I realize you're not aiming for the restoration market with your concept but rather for the guys tweaking as much HP as they can out of their motors. - So the purists out there may cringe at the idea of putting Chebby parts on their cars but most likely the blocks would be actually using aftermarket heads from those companies like Brodix - not Chevrolet. Once people wrap their heads (no pun intended) around the concept that they're not committing sacrilege adding parts off a GM to their cars they may accept it.

There isn't a Mopar owner that hasn't realized how much more expensive it is to build a Chrysler than brand X. - But most of us bite the bullet and pony up because of our devotion to our Mopars. Head selection has hurt us. Most aftermarket companies have been less likely to devote the engineering costs for Mopars because the market is smaller.

Intake & exhaust may be your biggest obstacle. - The low cost solution may end up awfully expensive.

Good luck with your idea and I hope it pans out. Why would it matter to some if they were telling folks they were running Brodix instead of Edelbrock or Trick Flow?
 
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