Cam HP capability

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Moparmal

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Engine will be a 318/390 stroker -

My target HP is 400FWHP

I have 480 HP at the head (Peak HP) (234 @.550)

Cam Card is : 282 adv, [email protected], .495 lift

The formula - PeakHP/310 x dur @ .50 says around 362 hp...

How reliable is this formula?

Assuming I have the exhaust, induction and ignition - is there any way this cam will make 400HP with the current Peak HP at the head?
 
It should make what you want easily with that many CI. But the larger the CI the more cam that can be used.
 
For a 4" stroke engine, that is a very small cam. IMO, it will have a hard time making 400hp. But it will make huge torque right off idle. What heads are you using again?
 
Thanx for the input -

Heads are cast 360s, 1.96 intake valve, they flow 234cfm at .55 lift.

I beleive this = 482 HP at the head or "peak" HP.

So the question is - will the cam get me 400 fly wheel HP if everything thing else doesn't restrict the engines capability (induction, ignition etc)

Any furtehr comment welcome...
 
What did the heads flow at .300 and .400? That is the range the cam will be. You lose about .018" lift due to the pushrod angle, so you're down to .477, and really, it isnt spending much time at that lift. It's soending the time in the .350 lift range. With a 4" arm, and close to stock LA ports, no way will it make the 400hp level. You can go way larger and not loose any drivability. What do they flow on the exhaust side?
 
Ill try and word my question another way -

Every cam has a maximum potential which can be reached if the rest of the engine is big enough and ugly enough....at some point a really good engine won't make any more power because the cam has "maxxed out" and can't fill the cylinders quickly enough or well enough.

Does the cam I listed have the "potential" to make 400HP in the right combo, and how would we know this?

Put another way - we know a 202@ .50 .388 lift cam will NEVER make 400HP -

But HOW do we know this? Is there a formula?

So how do we know which profile cam to buy when we have a certain HP target.?

Im trying to keep this question generic - rather than about my combo - because I know my combo can be jigged in the heads or the cam to make the target -

BUT I want to know can this cam make the target - in the right combo?

(Not talking gas, EFI or blower btw)

The heads flowed:

Intake
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
228 @ .50
234 @ .55

Ex.
114@ .20
130 @ .30
144 @.40
148 @ .50
 
Methinks there will be as many different answers as there are posters to this thread. Because it is through the interpretation of the givens, and the experiences of the builder or cam chooser guy that profiles are determined. So, as far as my ideas... The cam choice in a NA engine is dependant on a bunch of factors. Port volume, length, and shape (from the back of the valve to the throttle blades of the carb); piston speed (both peak and mean); carburetor type and size; header/exh manifold designs; exhaust system; chamber size and design; piston crown design... Then, I also consider the car, the transmission and gearing, the intended use, the owner's talents and budget, the desired result, and how much ciontrol I have over the rest of the build. Because if the hone job sucks, or the valve job is the best Aerohead can do, I may need a cam to make more power to cover the losses that poor quality machining produces. (A better built engine doesnt need as much cam to make the same power..) That's how I determine which cam I want to use in someone else's engine. Basing anything on my personal vehicles or past successes IMO is very close to fruitless. Because there are so many variables day to day, that "your results may vary". Where the personal experience comes in is the way these parts work together, and to some extent the "you need X to run Y" that comes with having done it more than once or twice. And in that last part, we usually see disagreements. In the end, if the "done-by-green engine" makes 450hp with a certain design and the "done-by-blue engine" makes 450hp with a different design, overall opinions may not matter at all.

Now, you asked if your cam could make 400 hp. I think so, yes. But, it would need a shorter stroke, an intake tract that will let the engine believe the cam is bigger than it really is, and and exh that is designed just to make power at a certain rpm point, and higher rpm point. HP is torque times rotations per minute over a constant, so the more revolutions in that same time, the more power will be at the crank. IMO, Something smaller like a 318, with a set of well done smaller ports like a good set of 302s, a tight quench for good static compression, and less stroke and more rpm than a 4" arm engine would make that number with that cam. But it would do it at something like 5200. The 4" crank will reach the "magic" power point much lower in the rpm range, near 4000rpm, and that is why I think it will simply starve before it clears 400hp. It will make mad torque, but fail to make the hp.
 
OK - Now the big question - how do we work out what profile WON'T starve the 4" arm engine?
 
Post more. What compression does it work out to be? What do you do with the car? Do you have power brakes? Auto or stick? What headers/exhaust? What do you want for maintenance? Do you mind running expensive oil?
 
From the detail you're asking for, it sounds like the selection is based on "experience", not a mathematical or mechanical physics based formula...would that be a fair summary?

Comp will be 10:1, street use mainly with some strip, power brakes, Magnaflos, I want a solid flat tappet auto with 3500 stall, 3.9 gears small tube full length headers, I use a high grade mineral oil. 25-50 (remember it gets hot down here and rarely below 45F)
 
The stroke changes the physics a little, as the crank's effect makes the piston accelerate a lot faster away from TDC and the peak speed occurs earlier in terms of crank degrees, and because the closing point of the intake has the ability to alter the cylinder pressures for the same reason. The basic stock port and limited flow will reduce the amount of wave tuning that can be exploited. The 75% intake to exh ratio means a single pattern cam could be used, but with full muffled exh, even good stuff, I dont like to depend too much on inertia helping exh port flow too much. The power brakes means it has to make good vacuum but as I said above, the crank goes a long way to help that. With limited flow, the fastest rate of lift will help, as I said earlier in the thread by getting the port to it's best flow rate quicker. There are various programs that basically use the same formulas, but the end result always has a certain amount of "feel" to it. As far as a recommendation...

I'd go with a Comp Custom flat tappet solid. I do not like to use the .904 lifter extreme rate of lift profiles in cars that need to idle and owners that dont want to replace valve springs every couple years.
So I would use the Ford lifter size fast rate lobes. I've done it with good success with Engle cams in the past. I loved the Cran H-302-2 they offered. So much so I bought one B and one LA of it so I can duplicate it...lol.
For you, this Comp lobe is the MHF series. I'd spec this:
Intake lobe - #7406 270° advertised, 244°@.050 .546 lift
Exhaust lobe - #7408 274° advertised, 248°@.050 .554 lift
112° Lobe seperation angle
 
as a matter of interest, the Camquest software said it'd make 456 HP with that storke and cam:sith: - I reckon they want to sell their cams real bad!!:shaking:

Dave - Is there anything smaller you can suggest that will just tip me over the 400HP limit? Gas is 3 times the price down here , and the smaller cam i can run to get there, the better it is for me as the car sees a lot of street driving....Thats why I was asking about the Magnum 282S
 
Well, if you look, you may note the one I spec'd ends up close to the XS282S, but with more lift to get the heads where they want to be. I dont think a single pattern will be the ticket for your setup. As a step down, I'd go with the XS274s It has a bit less duration at .050, but still has enough lift to get you to .480 at the valve. Remember that milage has to do with efficiency at your cruie rpm. Any of these cams will be similarly efficient within a range of about 400rpm. But the larger ones will make more peak power and torque. A similar engine (albeit 30" bigger) gets great milage (17+ highway) with a cam that's 238°int/248°exh @.050 hydraulic. It also makes about 480hp by the ETs. But, the heads flow a bit better (260ish/190ish). Better ehads need less cam. Im sure with the perfect head and perfect conditions the cam would make good power. Curious on the result of the calculator... when did the hp peak? What was the torque like? And yes, all products supplied by a certain manufacturer will be for thier own gain. I'll run it thru my program tonight just for giggles.
 
Get back to you on the Camquest data -

Dyno 2000 came in at 403HP for the M282S, and 413HP for the XS282S - (DP intake, 750 cfm Carb) More realistic I'm thinking for my heads......

It jumped 20HP for a SP, would you think that was a fair increase?
 
Curious on the result of the calculator... when did the hp peak? What was the torque like?

OK, this is for the Magnum 282S

(a minor adjustment to the exhaust flow data which i entered wrongly, )

DP, 1.94 valve, my heads, 10:1

CAMQUEST:

447.6HP @ 5500

471.6 ftlbs @ 4500

Be aware - Camquest won't allow a stroked 318/390 - so Im using the 360 data file. It will allow my headflow data though.....

DYNO 2000 (allows 318/390 data, my heads , DP intake)

386 HP @5500
424 lbs @4000

But if I go SP intake it says .....

409 @ 5500
433 @4500

So it likes the plenum volume.....

I couldn't test your cam - no valve events:-D

Funny thing is - the CamQ chart "recommends" good fits, and it says the
Comp XS268S is the best fit...so that verifies what you say about the split pattern being a good deal!

Then it says Magnum 282S

The XS282s is under the "drag" category -

which is what I had planned to go to....if the M282S got a negative report....

CQ claims 464.6 @ 6000
464 ftlbs at 4500

D2000 claims

410HP @5500
440 ftlbs @ 4500

ATM Im leaning towards a SP intake and the M282S and 1.6 rockers for a baseline, do you reckon I'll fall a long way short of the 400HP?
 
Sorry, I ended up packing and totally forgot about the "run my program" deal.. Sorry Mal. I dont think 1.6s are a good idea with a profile designed to be fast with 1.5s, so if it was the XE282s I'd stay 1.5s. The older lobe M282S might benefit in both duration and rate of lift, and I'm sure the added lift would help. I think a single plane will make more peak, and it will tame the torque a little lower down which can be a help with these engines and small tires. I like the M1 single myself. If it was a 416 I'd runa 1" open spacer with it. On the 390, I think no spacer would be fine.
 
I was thinking the 1.6 rockers for the M282S...and the M1 sounds the deal as well, Ive heard nothing but good reports about that intake.....and I guess Ill have plenty of torque to spare! LOL!
 
For you, this Comp lobe is the MHF series. I'd spec this:
Intake lobe - #7406 270° advertised, 244°@.050 .546 lift
Exhaust lobe - #7408 274° advertised, 248°@.050 .554 lift
112° Lobe seperation angle

Moper - I was just reviewing this thread - I'd like to kknow why you would go with the profile above - instead of the XS282S which is :

244/252 @ .50 and .520/.540 lift on a 110 c/line.

Id be interested in reading your rationale on the lesser duration/more lift of your suggestion?
 
Sorry to not getg back to this Mal... I had to go back and re-read...lol. The reason I go with more lift is simple... Lift is lost thru valve angles and lash. I said in a previous post that we want to make use of what we have. You know what the heads flow at .550, and they should be fairly strong at lower lifts. So the further you open the valve, the more air can get in with the same duration. There is a serious increase in flow from .400 to .500. The higher lift means after lash and angles you will definately be reaching the 200cfm mark with my choice. You might with the XE282s because you wont be opening the valve past .478 lift and you're not over .400 for very long. Sorry I took so long Mal.
Dave
 
Thanks for the reply Dave - Ill IM you at some time with some questions about how to calculate "actual" valve lift...Im still not clued in on that and why its so important.....
 
Actual valve lift is easiest when measured. Simply it's the difference between cam lobe lift, and the movement of the valve itself. So the things like lash on a solid or solid roller cam, angle of the pushrod, quality of the rocker, and quality of the rocker geometry and valve job all come into play. That's why it's easiest measured. But it can be measured with any cam once the valve job and mock up is done. Once you have the loss, you can use that figure as aguide to order the cam you want if you're that picky. Or what I do is say you'll lose about "x" and go from there. Going a little taller isn't a big deal. Changing duration could be.
 
This is a good thread. FWIW, I run an 11:1 410 with ported eddies. I had a hydraulic roller made that is 230/243 on a 113. I have dyno'd many combos including my previous combo and found this one to be the nicest driving and the strongest. I'd be VERY surprised if it didn't made 400hp to the wheels. I personally had huge cams and poor driveability. Good compression and heads along with a modern smartly designed cam can work really nicely together.

FYI - you can pump in stroker info into Camquest 6 software.
 
Moper - thanks for the brief - I suspect there'll be more questions ! LOL!

GMachine - I was thinking on a solid roller but to be honest, it'd blow the budget, so flat tappet it is.

I'll download the latest Camquest and pump the same figures into it - although I still reckon Camquest is "happy".

My goal is around 400HP, so it won't be a huge stick - I have the gears, the trans/converter and tyres on the car even now , so if the car responds to it the way it has to the current 320 FWHP motor, I may even crack a flat 12 and maintain some streetability. :D

(I should say I agree with you - streetability for me is being able to cruise the car at 60 mph over 200 miles - not just baby it down to the Mall parking lot!)
 
Well I checked the Camquest program, and I am running version 6 - and I got how to enter the stroker data figured (you have to hit the enter button :eek: )

So I put in my head flow data, SP intake, 318 block with 4" stroke, 750carb, 10:1 comp, and -

I chose the "heavier vehicle/ 3000 stall" option.

It came up with the XS282s as the best fit! -

Here's the kicker - it reckons 456HP @ 6000 and 462ft/lbs @ 4500.

Thats 40 HP more than the Dyno 2000.

(My heads peak at 480HP, I can't see them making 456 with my combo.)
 
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