Camber adjust problem

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Steeveedee

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Hello folks, I have a '70 Dart that has about 4º of negative camber, with no adjustment left in the eccentrics to bring them back up to 0º. Are there offset pieces that could be used to correct this? Thanks, Steve
 
Steeveedee said:
Hello folks, I have a '70 Dart that has about 4º of negative camber, with no adjustment left in the eccentrics to bring them back up to 0º. Are there offset pieces that could be used to correct this? Thanks, Steve
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Yes, you could use the Moog 7103 offset bushings.

Are both sides at that 4 deg negative?

What shop tried to align it?

Are you sure your lower control arm bushings are is good condition?

If the car is not rusted or been in an accident, it's not real common for both side to be way at 4 deg negative. I would look at other reasons causing that.
 
Thanks, Steve. It has a really rusty roof, and got a minor fender bender many years ago that required replacing the PS fender, as it was easier to replace it than repair it. But not all that dinged up. The K-member and complete drive train are from a '75 Scamp. We upgraded from 4 wheel manual drum to front power discs, /6 to a 318, and the big punkin. The original /6 (195(?) Cu In) had the tiny diff with 7 bolts on the cover. I'll probably take it to the dealer to get an expert diagnosis. I can't just crawl under it and figure it out. If I had a hoist, that would help. Driver's side camber is -4, passenger's side is a little worse than -1. I didn't look at the passenger's side beyond laying a plumb line on it to see where it was. The local Pep Boys was the shop. If the unibody is sagging due to age or corrosion, I'll be parting it out. There is more wrong with it that is not trivial, like the right door latch bound and that door won't open. I'd have to cut it open and weld in new stuff. Too much pain.
 
Steeveedee said:
Thanks, Steve. It has a really rusty roof, and got a minor fender bender many years ago that required replacing the PS fender, as it was easier to replace it than repair it. But not all that dinged up. The K-member and complete drive train are from a '75 Scamp. We upgraded from 4 wheel manual drum to front power discs, /6 to a 318, and the big punkin. The original /6 (195(?) Cu In) had the tiny diff with 7 bolts on the cover. I'll probably take it to the dealer to get an expert diagnosis. I can't just crawl under it and figure it out. If I had a hoist, that would help. Driver's side camber is -4, passenger's side is a little worse than -1. I didn't look at the passenger's side beyond laying a plumb line on it to see where it was. The local Pep Boys was the shop. If the unibody is sagging due to age or corrosion, I'll be parting it out. There is more wrong with it that is not trivial, like the right door latch bound and that door won't open. I'd have to cut it open and weld in new stuff. Too much pain.
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Don't take it to the dealer. They will not mess with an older car. $100 minimum diagnostic fee too.

It's a very good chance the Pep Boys didn't go the effort to adjust cam adjusters very much. Or more likely something else is bad and they were not very excited about working on the car. Many place are "toe and go" as many new cars don't even have a way to adjust camber/caster.

The alignment shop near Perry's on 1st has moved in with Rory over at Fontana Motorsports. [ame]http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fontana-Motorsports/198648423567772[/ame] He's on Industrial St just east of Tapo Street.

Contact Rory and tell him Steve from the CPW club sent you over.

Sounds like the top is rusty from a vinyl top going bad.

Did you yourself change the front suspension over to the 74 V-8 style?
 
I was sorta hoping that I'd find an "old school" guy in the shop that had worked on these old things and maybe had some insight. Pep Boys was interested in selling me an idler arm, centerlink and Pittman arm, in the beginning. Then I took it back when I saw that the camber was so far off. We picked it up after dark last weekend, and I didn't see it again until yesterday.The dust on the fasteners was undisturbed, so I know that they didn't do any adjusting. In any event, the eccentric washers on the driver's side are as far as they will go to get positive camber, as I tried that this morning. The service manager admitted they didn't touch the camber/caster adjustments.

I'll see what I can do about getting over to the place you recommended. I'd like to keep it rolling, but don't want to drop a mint into it.

That vinyl top is toast, indeed.

My son and I did all the changing out of parts, in August of 2009. Before I went to work as a mechanical engineer in '84, I was an NIASE- certified mechanic for Engine repair and tune-up, brakes and A/C service. "NIASE" is what it was called before it got shortened to "ASE". I was also state-licensed for brakes, lamps and Smog, Class "C".
 
Steeveedee said:
I was sorta hoping that I'd find an "old school" guy in the shop that had worked on these old things and maybe had some insight. Pep Boys was interested in selling me an idler arm, centerlink and Pittman arm, in the beginning. Then I took it back when I saw that the camber was so far off. We picked it up after dark last weekend, and I didn't see it again until yesterday.The dust on the fasteners was undisturbed, so I know that they didn't do any adjusting. In any event, the eccentric washers on the driver's side are as far as they will go to get positive camber, as I tried that this morning. The service manager admitted they didn't touch the camber/caster adjustments.

I'll see what I can do about getting over to the place you recommended. I'd like to keep it rolling, but don't want to drop a mint into it.

That vinyl top is toast, indeed.

My son and I did all the changing out of parts, in August of 2009. Before I went to work as a mechanical engineer in '84, I was an NIASE- certified mechanic for Engine repair and tune-up, brakes and A/C service. "NIASE" is what it was called before it got shortened to "ASE". I was also state-licensed for brakes, lamps and Smog, Class "C".
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Did you check out the idler arm for up and down movement?

The lower control arm bushings: Do the lower control arm bushing look like the rubber is squished out? Does the lower control arm housing around the bushing look off center with the lower control arm pin that goes into the K-member?

Did they really recommend a centerlink on their paperwork. If so, that is pretty alarming since it has NO WEARING PARTS on an A-body centerlink. It would be only bad if it was bent. And you can not buy them new anyways.

When you jack the car up and grab the tire and move the top and bottom in and out, is there a lot of movement. Could be wheel bearing adjustment and/or lower and/or upper ball joints.

I really believe the Moog 7103 would bring that driver's side out to at least 1 degree negative camber. Which will work for radial tires. More optimum for high milage cruising would be .5 to .25 negative. But it doesn't seem you are or planning to drive it 30 miles round trip to work everyday.

BUT I really believe there very high chance something worn or out of adjustment causing the 4 deg negative on the drivers side with BOTH front and rear cam eccentrics set all the way out. They are both front and rear all the way out?
 
............either that or that shop doesn't know how to measure camber...........
 
You gotta remember that when you swap on the '73 up spindles and discs you are increasing the front track almost an inch. Had this problem on a '66 Valiant after a disc brake swap and the Moog offset bushings took care of it....
 
The extra width is not an issue as the frame rails did not change in '73. Post a pic of the eccentrics so that we can see. I'm with Steve as far as checking the bushings for wear, but I'm not a big fan of the offset bushings. I think my son's Dart has a couple degrees positive caster and about half degree negative camber with stock bushings.

Also, don't trust Pep Boys for anything...
 
dmoore said:
You may want to ensure the ride height is where it's supposed to be....too low and will have negative camber issues.
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True, that's not going to help.

But he is off by 3-4 degrees of camber. It would have to have a bunch of other contributors too. In his avatar pic, the car doesn't seem extremely low.
 
Maybe post a photo of the cam adjuster bolts so we are all clear of the problem. When I hear "all the way out", I imagine you mean that the upper control arm (UCA) is further away from the frame, moving the top of the wheel outward. Wheels leaning out is "positive camber". That looks kind of stupid but the factory adjustment was slight positive camber. Most people today like the wheels leaning slightly inward at the top (negative camber). That makes the car hug turns better. I think most modern cars come that way. Radial tires can accomodate a lot of camber without wearing like the old bias ply tires did. No reason to adjust your car to the old factory specs, and you can find many posts with preferred settings for today's tires.

Most people have trouble adjusting caster for radial tires, and many use Moog offset bushing to help there. I did. You want to pull the rear of the UCA inward more and push the front outward more. I used the offset bushings just at the rear location, mainly because I am cheap.
 
OK, I'm back. Work is getting in the way, lots of overtime. The car is sitting at the stock riding height, as in the picture. It's only the driver's side that is so far out. The passenger's side is only about 1 degree out (I forget which way at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it's negative). The eccentrics on the driver's side are all the way out to the maximum for positive camber. Turning them only makes it worse.

Yes, you are right, Bill, the upper control arm on the driver's side is as far out from the center line of the car as it can be...and I still have 4 degrees negative. I wish I had caught this sooner. My son drives it and I don't see it often. It has eaten up one pair of front tires in maybe 8k miles, and I don't want the new Michelins creamed in that kind of mileage.

Geometrically, I know what I'm looking at. I've aligned cars in the past. There is no adjustment left.

Steve, I'll have to check the lower control arm bushings, thanks for that observation. I can't believe that there would be that much gone; they didn't look that bad on casual observation, but the adjustment is going to require about .3" on top to get back to 0 degrees, so I imagine it is possible. I sure hope so. That's an easy fix.
 
Make sure the LCA is from an A-body (it will be stamped with a V and an L, if there's an R and W the LCA is too short).
 

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Thanks for the inputs. The LCAs came from a '75 Scamp, so should be right. I'll have my son bring it over on Saturday, and I'll be checking into that. As I sit and think about it, I suspect that the LCA bushings and ball joints are toast. In combination, they could present this issue. I put the top side bushings (and maybe ball joints- it's been awhile) in a few (about 5) years ago. I'm hanging my head for not doing a proper diagnosis, before throwing out the white flag.
 
I understand now that the driver's side wheel is leaning in too far at the top (negative camber). If not from worn LCA bushings, it could be that the car was hit on the side, shoving the top frame over. That is what the Moog offset bushings were intended to fix. Most of us orient them the other way at the rear because we trying to move the upper ball joint aft for more caster.

Our 96 minivan was hit on the front driver's side, making the driver's wheel lean way inward. After replacing the bent strut and filing the slot for more adjustment, it still leaned in a bit too much. It still drove straight, but I recall that tread wear was a bit higher on the inside, plus looked funny (at least to me since I knew about it). After 6 months I bought a HF porta power knock-off and bent the frame back, which let me adjust it right. Wouldn't have had to go thru this had we not had crappy GEICO insurance.
 
Try doing this: Take the engine weight off of the K-member by undoing the mounts & raising & supporting the engine. Then losen the K-member to frame mounting bolts & using a pry bar try to shift the position of the K-member toward the side that has LESS negative Camber then retorque the K-member in place. You may get enough movement by repositioning it to pick up some adjustment & get you closer to spec. You may not get much movement out of it, but a little bit is all it takes sometimes.
Good luck.
 
dunno if this has been said or not..but check ride hight...did alignments for many years and ride height affects everything... if one side is higher then the other or if it is sitting lower or higher then it should.....ride hight does wonders..
 
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