Was it a mid-year change in ‘75? I knew the ‘76 models had it but I haven’t seen a ton of ‘75’s. I seem to recall hearing not all the ‘75’s had it but clearly there’s some bad information floating around.
Catalytic converters
- Thread starter Jarlaxle
- Start date
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Was it a mid-year change in ‘75? I knew the ‘76 models had it but I haven’t seen a ton of ‘75’s. I seem to recall hearing not all the ‘75’s had it but clearly there’s some bad information floating around.
Jarlaxle
Well-Known Member
I was hoping for experience with the cars; from what I've seen, SOME car engines got cats in 75, but not all. I'm just not sure which ones.
How do you mean?
We dealt with an EPA audit for a 2 year period while they dissected all of our exhaust products. We paid the nations top emissions lawyers a lot of money to help us during this time. Not to sound like a complete JA but what experience do you have with the EPA with respect to emissions?
Here's some information from the dealership data book '75. According to the data book a "catalytic converter...is standard on most models".
https://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/dealerships/DealershipDataBook/1975/75-Dart_0002.jpg
So looks like '75 is the right answer, for "most" of the '75 models anyway.
In California it used to be a rolling 25 year deal, anything more than 25 years old was exempt. Then they stopped it so that '75 was the last year exempt. I had always thought it stopped there because '76 was when the convertors came out, so you couldn't take a catalytic convertor off a car that came equipped with one. But it looks like I was mistaken! Thanks for the correction @Kern Dog
As a California resident and owner of a '74 model year car with an engine swap that is completely smog exempt, I can assure you that no catalytic converter has to be added to a '73 or later car here. '75 and older are smog exempt in California and do not need to be tested, let alone have anything added.
By 1975, all passenger vehicles would have had a catalytic converter by federal EPA law. That doesn't mean some states allowed vehicles without converters to still be sold. But what is more important is your original question. I'm not aware of any state that can prohibit you from buying any car you want to buy. The real question is whether you can get that car to be legally driven in that particular state. Certainly CA and NY or two REALLY strict states that could prevent you from successfully passing inspections for a number of different reasons. But if the car is equipped with the 'original' properly functioning catalytic converter or a car that has had the catalytic converter replaced by a CARB certified converter assembly, despite the year, then you are good. I say 'assembly' because in a state like CA, it's not enough to have just the converter replaced, the entire assembly with pipe, connectors etc all must be a 100% direct replacement to the original to qualify from a visual inspection alone. Then in the these same very strict states, your vehicle must also pass the emission test. For example, you could have the correct perfectly functioning original or CARB certified converter assembly but your carburetor could cause you to fail the emissions test. I hope this helps.
ACME SS
Well-Known Member
Keep the mice out of your car and the cats usually stay away.
And again, in California, there is no inspection and no smog test of any kind for any vehicle 1975 and older. Zip, zero, zilch.
What is required in other states is different, but here if it's 1975 or older it is not required to have any kind of inspection, yearly or smog or otherwise.
ok, egg on my face. It is 1974 and prior. but not sure whether the topic starter understands what was right and wrong about my statement. If he is looking at buying a 1974 car, then I gave bad advice. Any other year besides 1974, and my advice is accurate.
Maybe I blocked those 2 years out of my mind for very good and expensive reasons! WE also came out of that experience erroring very much on the safe side!
ok, you are from CA and obviously have good experience in that state. The topic starter wants to buy a post 1974 vehicle and is seeking our advice. So if CA is so incredibly emissions conscious and any modification to the catalytic converter is considered 'tampering', is everything controlled by the service centers that would install the exhaust system? Is it the responsibility of the State or local police to inspect your post 1974 vehicle for a proper carb certified emissions exhaust? I believe NY is following California. Other states are starting to as well. It would be interesting to hear from a New Yawka' or other New England state that has recent experience with regards to a post 1974 passenger car registration and inspection.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Since you asked, I've worked for an environmental regulatory agency in California for the last 15 yrs. You can probably guess which one. Needless to say, I correspond with my EPA colleagues on emission-related assignments regularly.
That's irrelevant though. As a gearhead in California, I was simply pointing out the blatant misinformation in your post when you said "If your car is 1973 or older, you do not need to add cats to your car except in California." That's absolutely untrue. As @72bluNblu pointed out, anything '75 and older in CA is smog exempt and is never required to undergo any kind of emissions-related inspection. I'm amazed that CA isn't as stringent as some other states with respect to older vehicle emission inspections. I'm not complaining though - hopefully other states follow suit. I'd imagine this bin makes up a tiny fraction of the overall mobile source emissions inventory in the US. I can't imagine why it would make sense administering and enforcing these rules on older vehicles. Well, I guess I can, but then this thread would be moved.
By 1975, all passenger cars by Federal EPA standards, had to have a catalytic converter exhaust system. Since this standard was just being put in place, it's entirely possible that some early production vehicles got some type of special exception? super early production 1975 models? If you go on the EPA site, all of that early documentation is available to review. But I think it's safe to say, if you select a 1975 or newer model, you are going to need the proper converter kept on that vehicle by any state that is strictly following CARB standards set by CA.
Ok, so again, the cut off is not 1974 here. It’s 1975 and older that are exempt. That means the smog laws apply to 1976 and later, 1975 model year vehicles are exempt.
For vehicles that are not exempt you need a smog certificate to register your vehicle in most counties. There are some counties that are totally smog exempt, but that’s a different story. So typically, enforcement usually just consists of not being able to register your vehicle unless it passes smog. Smog certification comes from the smog shops that are inspected and registered and all that. How often you have to smog depends on the year of your vehicle, it’s not every year for all vehicles. New vehicles are exempt for 4 years and if you pay a smog abatement fee you can skip it for 8.
Out of date registration violations fall to local law. There are also some jurisdictions with their own laws, certain cities have passed laws regarding stopping modified vehicles and specifically train their officers on vehicle modifications so they can inspect vehicles and cite them. That was a street racing, tuner kid kind of thing for revenue.
Normally there’s no way for an officer to know you’ve say, removed your catalytic converter and stop you for that. Now, if you straight pipe a new car they’re gonna know, but the stop is gonna be for noise not smog. Once you’re stopped the biggest fine will be for the catalytic converter, but that’s not gonna be why you got stopped. And yeah once you’re stopped you can be checked for all your CARB stickers and things if you’ve replaced OE equipment. Which you can do if the new stuff is CARB. But again, you’d have to be stopped already. And usually an officer isn’t going to check all that stuff unless there’s a really obvious reason to.
All this stuff is readily available on the internet too, feel free to look up anything you have more specific questions on.
Smog Inspections - California DMV
Jarlaxle
Well-Known Member
I am absolutely 100% certain that there were cars with no catalysts in at least 75-6. (My sister had one.)
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Jarlaxle
Well-Known Member
Visual check for cats. I don't think any still use the rollers I this area. 96+ gets hooked to the computer for the OBD2 check.
Don't remember cars 75 or newer without cats. Trucks were a different story but these days, anything that's 25 or older isn't tested for emissions in Texas but all the junk that was put on it from the factory is supposed to be on it. Thing is, no inspection stations that I go to here checks. They don't even open the hood. I mean, who daily drives a 25+ year old vehicle other than me?!
My newest vehicle is a 97 and it's a diesel so no emissions on it at all since new.....and that thing had a cat on it! That surprised me!
Just buy an older exempt car. That way you won't look like an idiot on an automotive forum arguing about catalytic converters of all things. I don't give two CRAPS about what the first year for them was. lol
I have no idea why I put 'except in California'.
Well that's embarrassing. I apologize to viewers. I might have been thinking about the original 1967 EPA requirements. ie smog pumps and the grey area of wording that accompanied those initial requirements between then and 1975?
Anyway, those are some pretty good credentials!
I've participated in automotive forum communities since 1991 and have experience a multitude of self proclaimed experts that turn out to be spreading a lot of bad information. And now I'm one of them.
Luckily through participation, the good information almost always bubbles to the top.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'exempt' but the EPA made it very clear to us that anything newer than 1974 requires a converter that is equal to our better than whatever was on the vehicle originally. I'm referring to the sale of any type of aftermarket catalytic defeat devices....which could be simply a downpipe that eliminates the cat.
And thanks for all the other information about california emissions. I'll be passing this along to the staff as we get a lot of calls on this subject from Californians.
Jarlaxle
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry...have anything helpful to add? I was looking for help, not an editorial.
Jarlaxle
Well-Known Member
Please stop defecating in the thread.
Jarlaxle
Well-Known Member
My sister had one, a Honda...I've seen others, though I don't recall exactly which models.Don't remember cars 75 or newer without cats. Trucks were a different story but these days, anything that's 25 or older isn't tested for emissions in Texas but all the junk that was put on it from the factory is supposed to be on it. Thing is, no inspection stations that I go to here checks. They don't even open the hood. I mean, who daily drives a 25+ year old vehicle other than me?!
Exempt in California means you're not required to have a smog test performed to register your vehicle, even when the vehicle is bought/sold. And if you don't need to smog test for your registration, the only other way you'd need to have a smog test done is if you've been cited for being out of compliance (there are no yearly inspections here). But a 1975 vehicle is exempt from compliance, so, how would you be cited?
So I don't know what the EPA would do to enforce that law, or how someone would ever be in a position that the EPA would find out.
It may still be illegal to defeat or remove a catalytic converter on a 1975 vehicle if it came with one originally, but if you're not ever required to have a smog test or inspection on that vehicle, I don't know how anyone would find out.
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