Cold start problems

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mrhollywood

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Ok so my car starts up fine with two pumps of the gas pedal when its cold but it runs rough with the choke closed,like its misfiring...the car shakes like crazy until its warm. Once its warm the curb idle is smooth and warm starts without pumping the gas. Any idea of whats causing this?
 
Do you understand how the choke pull---off works? Sounds like it's not working, or out of spec. You have shop manual?
 
Last I checked the choke and pulloff were working properly. Not sure if everything is to spec though...I don't have a tach yet. Yes I do have the shop manual.
 
Check the filter for "plugged" or better yet remove the element for a couple of days and see if that improves things. Definately check the pulloff specification and whether it's operating. They can "pop" the diaphragm anytime, especially as old as these cars are

If these two things don't help, the choke thermostat may be out of spec, the linkage bent, or binding, or if you have an electric choke heater, it may not be working.
 
Suspect choke’s pull-off as mentioned above. You didn’t say if choke is electric or mechanical, both have a pull-off provision that as soon as vacuum is developed at engine start the device cracks open the choke plate about ¼” or so, and as engine warms continues to ratchet plate to full vertical open.

Mechanical pull-off is accomplished via a vacuum actuated diaphragm located on carburetor. I used to check for leaking by attaching a length of vacuum hose, sucking diaphragm fully retracted holding that position with tongue, and seeing if it can hold a vacuum. If diaphragm is good, you will need to make small adjustments to rod with a “U” bend connecting it to choke plate to adjust pull-off opening during a cold (overnight) start. Also there is a bimetal spring located in manifold beneath a tin cover with a projecting rod that pulls choke open as engine warms and pushes choke plate closed when cold. This spring can break causing choke plate to flap at will. To test spring action when engine is cold pull air cleaner, move throttle shaft by hand and see if spring forces choke plate closed, or if engine is warm see if spring fully retracts choke plate to vertical. If these conditions are not met, there is some adjustment at spring coil housed below tin cover, or the spring has failed, broken in two, and needs to be replaced.

A factory electric choke generally has an internal piston that is moved by vacuum, and unless it is stuck, will not need tending to, however choke articulation or pull off can be adjusted by rotating its round black cover containing heating coil by trial and error before a cold start. Or, as 67dart273 said; perhaps a broken bimetal spring internal to choke has failed and is unable to move choke plate open or closed.
 
Not to jump in but I have the same problem. My diaphragm is holding pressure and my spring is springy. So my question is how do you make these adjustments and how do you know when you have adjusted it correctly?

Quote:
"If diaphragm is good, you will need to make small adjustments to rod with a “U” bend connecting it to choke plate to adjust pull-off opening during a cold (overnight) start."
 
All good information but knowing what engine/carb you have is most important. It very much sounds like a rich choke or a pull off not working or improperly adjusted. (both too rich) tmm
 
mrhollywood,
Give more details on how you verified that the choke pull-off is working correctly and how you adjusted the choke. Also, what carb you have and year of the car. A photo would help. A shaky engine usually means lean. Too rich usually runs smooth until it dies, with black smoke out the exhaust. If electronic ignition, insure the module body is grounded.
 
I have a 70' Dodge Dart. 1920 carb with a chokepot. I put a tach on it the other day and set it to the right idle. I think my choke spring isn't working all the time. The pull off is working. I'll try richening the fuel mixture.
 
All these automatic chokes work about the same way.

Cold (overnight cool down) start; depress accelerator to floor and let off to set high idle. What happens when depressing accelerator is the choke’s bimetal spring forces the choke plate closed via a rod (not real tight with a lot of force, and not loose enough to allow it to flop) Adjustment of force applied is accomplished by rotating bimetal spring in choke stove housed in manifold, or if electric, turning the black disk that two wires are attached after backing off three screws that lock it down. During real cold (below zero) depress accelerator ¼ down while cranking engine; don’t pump or it will flood; you don’t want to go there.

Once vacuum is present at light off, the choke plate is instantly repositioned from full closed to cracked open about a ¼” maybe 3/16” or so. This makes a rich mixture with enough air to allow engine to run smoothly at high idle (around 1500 rpm) for a short time while heat is building in intake manifold and choke stove to cause bimetal spring to unwind, or if electric choke the bi metal spring is a resistance coil heated by electron flow. A stone cold manifold requires an excessively rich mixture because as air/fuel mixture passes through it fuel will come out of suspension on any cold internal surface leaning the mixture.

As bi metal spring uncoils during warm up, choke plate is progressively opened. During this same time movement of rod connecting bimetal coil or spring causes high idle cam to move progressively reducing engine rpm. This is what happens after startup when one gooses the gas to kick down idle. Pressure exerted on throttle shaft keeps high idle cam from moving, and once throttle plates are opened the high idle cam is free to move as much as the bimetal spring & its choke plate rod will allow. Eventually everything warms up, and returns to normal.

Reasons for this Rube Goldberg choke contraption not to work well are numerous. I list a few common maladies that can be singular, or several causing problems.
Dirty exterior of carb not allowing free movement of various parts, clean using a brush and spray carb cleaner until everything moves freely.
Worn pivot points in linkage and rods causing binding when actuated; cure is to remove the part, and smooth worn area with a fine file. An example would be the rod the moves choke plate closed may bind at its connection to plate causing it not to fully close by its self, but when jiggled by hand will snap shut.

Vacuum diaphragm ruptured, unable to retract device connected to it; cure replace it.

Broken bimetal spring, cure replace it, same goes for electric choke spring.
Causes for braking bimetal spring can be one to many heat cycles.
Electric choke:
No cooling air provided by controlled vacuum leak once engine starts flowing past spring allowing it to overheat and self-destruct. This is one reason not to leave key in on position when engine is not running.
Electrical connections: need full 12 volts not supplied from ignition circuit or coil, but by using a relay triggered from ignition circuit, and good ground. If electric choke pulls off too fast there are thermistors that regulate voltage flow to ground by reading engine temperature to slow pull off.
 
Mrhollywood,

Ok so my car starts up fine with two pumps of the gas pedal

One shouldn’t need to pump if choke is functioning properly. One full depression of accelerator to floor should set choke, and high idle. Pumping will flood engine, and sometimes unsets choke and high idle.

bu
t it runs rough with the choke closed, like its misfiring...the car shakes like crazy until its warm
This can be caused by that second pump wetting one or two of the spark plugs with raw gas… My bet would be #6 is getting baptized perhaps #5 as well, so engine is running on 4 or 5 cylinders. Once plug dries from engine pumping air through cylinder, the charge will light off, and engine will smooth out.

You need to correct this partial flooding problem, all that raw fuel is washing oil film off of cylinder walls causing excessive wear, and thinning oil in sump which will take out bearings after a while.

I think my choke spring isn't working all the time

Check for rod linkage pivot points for binding from excessive wear, dress these spots with a small fine file until any ridges are blended, and parts move freely.


I'll try richening the fuel mixture

Warm up engine first, than adjust idle mixture screw for highest idle speed and vacuum reading. Don’t just give’em a turn.
Colds start mixture is controlled by amount of pull off after light-off. You can move choke plate by hand as engine warms to fine tune pull off setting if you don’t have a dimension form manual.

One possibility is this carburetor is need of a good cleaning, and freshening up with a rebuild.
 
Around here, "Cold Start Problems" used to be another way of saying "Chrysler product". My father wasn't faithful to any one make but he did have three Plymouths over the years - a '39 Coupe, a '61 Fury, and a '66 Valiant. The '39 was before my time but I know the other two had to have their block heaters plugged in, every night from October through April. Even though he was not particularly mechanical, Dad knew every under-the-hood trick to start these stubborn lumps, when they happened to be parked too long without a plug-in.

My own Chrysler experience has so far been limited to a '78 Cordoba, which I bought in 2002 and only kept a couple of years. It was a one-owner car, very well maintained, but it continued the Chrysler tradition of being a lousy winter starter.

I'm new to this forum, by the way, and I'm hoping to find a good first-generation Valiant.
 
My 1920 Holley was just rebuilt. And my car does run better.
But mine needs pumped about 7 times when it has been sitting. After it has been run, and restarted later in the day, it still needs three pumps to start.
My pull off works. I think my springy thing, that goes to the manifold is probably shot.
Mine even still has a "slight" hesitation pulling out, but not enough to bug me.
 
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