Compression

-

ThogtheCaveman

Grand Admiral
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Messages
192
Reaction score
0
Location
orange county, CA
I have been trying to figure out what the highest compression can be used for regular (87 octane) gas. I have been searching a lot online and get confusing numbers, i have seen some engines with 9:1 compression that require premium while i see others with 9.5:1 that only need regular. Even my dad remembers when he and his friend raced a '68 383 gts in the late 60s early 70s that they could get away with regular, but i think regular had a higher octane rating back then? Anyway sorry to babble on, but im just trying to figure out how high of compression i should have when i finally get close to building my engine. By the way i have a '69 hp 383, but i think i am probably going to get a 360, although i am really no where near these points in my buildup. THanks!
 
There are a number of factors that effct how much compression you can run for a given octane rating.

1. The amount of duration in the cam shaft. It's the cylinder pressure that is important not the static compression. A cam with 300 degrees of duration will bleed off a lot more cylinder pressure than a cam with 200 degrees of duration. This is why putting a long duration cam in a low compression motor kills off low rpm torque.

2. The design of the cylinder head. A head that creates a lot of turbulance in the cylinder is much more detonation resistance. The more modern closed chamber heads with a zero deck flat top piston will allow a much higher static compression ratio.

3 The material of the cylinder head. Aluminum heads draw heat away from the combustion chamber much faster than iron making them more detonation resistant. With aluminum heads you need to run almost 1 point more in compression to be equivalent to iron heads.

4. The tune-up. Less agressive timing and richer mixtures are more detonation resistance allowing higer compression.

All of these items need to be factored into how much compression your engine can have.
 
The more improtant figure to "aim for" is the dynamic compression ratio. If you go to KB_piston.com, they have a calculator you can play with. That takes into account the rod to stroke ratio, and the closing point of the intake valve of a particular cam grind in relation to the position of the piston in it's cycle. ou can run as high as 9.5:1 dynamic and run fine on todays 93 octane 10% ethanol (around here) fuels. Static compression leaves a lot "on the table" in terms of power if you strickly build by it alone. A modern chamber design, a good pistons design, and aluminum head material, witht eh right cam choice, and good quench will let a static ratio of 11.5
:1 run on pump fuel. I've read of some as high as 13:1 in a perfect design (import 4 valve "hemi" heads). But these egines develop a dynamic ratio of 9.5:1. That's the pressure the fuel "feels" and what makes it want to ignite from a hot spot or poor mixing in the chamber. The 416 I built 2 years ago runs on pump 89 octane, and is static ratio of 10.85:1. The 440 in my buddy's car is a true 10.8:1 with closed chamber iron heads and flat tops, and also runs on pump 93. Dynamic compression on the 416 is 9.2:1, on the 440 is 9.5:1.
 
With answers like that, it's hard to add 2 cents. Car Craft has a write up on it. It doesn't add to much to the answers given, but goes further in detail.
You'll find it in the "Whats your problem" tech question and answer section. (Page 69 starts the section. flip 2 pages for the compression question.)

A few issues back, they also did 2 small block Chevy build ups (No surprise there) that were different in many respects (350 vs 383 stroker) that showed how to get X amount of HP out of them. The stroker engine was a low 8-1 that wacked out something like 500 HP on low octane while the 350, did the same on high octane.
The purpose of the build was to show you the power of strokers, head choice, cam choice and posibiltys and choices that can still net big power.
If you look past the "Chevy" label, you can see that it still applies to any engine.
A little creative thinking and you could do the same.
Careful selection of parts and how they'll work is the key.
 
A couple of other factors not mentioned yet are altitude and quench. First, altitude. The higher the altitude, the less air there is availible to be pulled in on the intake stroke, and the lower the cranking compression. Hence, the higher the altitude, the higher the calculated dynamic compression ratio (as Moper mentioned) you can get away with. This is definitely a huge factor here in Denver @ 5280' in the city, and up to and over 9000' on some of the mountain passes and I'm not even getting into calculated density! The local dragstrip here, Bandimere Speedway, has an altitude of 5860'! Something that I've seen here a lot is the tendency to overcam based on the static compression ratio and the resulting loss of low end torque and driveability. Nothing quite like trying to build an engine to perform with 20% less oxygen availible than at sea level!
Ok, now quench. This takes into account two factors. One being cylinder head design, the next is piston to head clearance. As dgc333 mentioned, a closed style cylinder head with a flat top piston offers excellent detonation resistance. This is due to "quench", or simpler terms, the area in between the piston and head where the air fuel mixture is squeezed out at high velocity preventing detonation by speeding flame travel. With good forged rods, this "quench" clearance should ideally be set to .040" by selecting the correct installed head gasket thickness in conjunction with measured piston deck clearance. In other words, if your pistons have zero deck clearance, select a head gasket with a .040" installed thickness (with flat top pistons). Go less than this and the pistons will smack the heads at high rpm due to rod stretch, although I have heard of people running .035" piston to head clearance with their engine rev-limited to 5500 rpm. Aluminum rods stretch more, so this clearance must be increased. Keith Black has some excellent information on their web site here http://www.kb-silvolite.com/article.php?action=read&A_id=35 on quench. You're on the right track by doing your research before you build, rather than having to comprimise later on. Since this is a street car, figure your cruise rpm at highway speed. Check out the Crane Cams website and look at their recommendations for that cruising speed and note the duration specs @ .050". Pick a cam from any manufacturer within 5 degrees of those specs. Note the cam manufacturers compression recomendations, add 1 full point of compression for alumininum heads, or .5 point for iron closed chamber heads with quench set up right, and build your engine around the cam. Spend the extra 6 bucks on a tank of good gas in a well thought out engine combo and you wont be disapointed. :toothy7:
 
Thanks Ram...I'm at 0' elevation...lol. You guys can "get away with" some higher ratios, but I'd still prefer living near the shore ;). A note on the .040 distance. I've run as close as .030 with good pistons, good crank, and steel rods. I know of several racers who run as tight as .027, but they can read the piston part number stamp like a mirror in the cylinder surface. They actually barely touch at 7K rpm. At least, that's what I am told. Generally, .035 to .045 is what you want. The closer, the better the effect.
 
moper said:
Thanks Ram...I'm at 0' elevation...lol. You guys can "get away with" some higher ratios, but I'd still prefer living near the shore ;). A note on the .040 distance. I've run as close as .030 with good pistons, good crank, and steel rods. I know of several racers who run as tight as .027, but they can read the piston part number stamp like a mirror in the cylinder surface. They actually barely touch at 7K rpm. At least, that's what I am told. Generally, .035 to .045 is what you want. The closer, the better the effect.
Lot to be said about living at sea level, 20% more power on a naturally aspirated engine is always a good thing! Good looking women there in CT too! Years back, I used to date Rit Pustari's (The top fuel driver from CT) sister (she lives in Denver).
It's always a struggle here to get decent power at these varying altitudes. But, we've got 75 mph speed limits, world class trout fishing, and some of the best scenery in the world! Plus, there's only 3.5 million people in the entire state. No earthquakes, hurricanes, and with the "Make My Day" law, we're allowed to shoot anyone breaking into our house or garage! :thumbup:

Yep, the tighter the quench, the better the effect. You're right, keep the combustion chamber clean, and even tighter clearances are possible.

Have a great day Moper! Thogthecaveman, happy to help! :)
 
Ramcharger. Elxcellent!
Plus, there's only 3.5 million people in the entire state. No earthquakes, hurricanes, and with the "Make My Day" law, we're allowed to shoot anyone breaking into our house or garage!
I like the sounds of that. Theres 3.5 million in my county and it just gets denser towards the city. I'm near Moper, kind of, on Long Island N.Y. so I have allways delt with sea level. It's gotta be tuff @ 5,500 +.

On the tech side of this thread.........

On my 360 street machine engine, I run a zero deck KB piston (4.030 size bore) and a .039 Fel-Pro gasket with Edelbrock heads. Good to go.
 
moper said:
Thanks Ram...I'm at 0' elevation...lol. You guys can "get away with" some higher ratios, but I'd still prefer living near the shore ;). A note on the .040 distance. I've run as close as .030 with good pistons, good crank, and steel rods. I know of several racers who run as tight as .027, but they can read the piston part number stamp like a mirror in the cylinder surface. They actually barely touch at 7K rpm. At least, that's what I am told. Generally, .035 to .045 is what you want. The closer, the better the effect.


On higher RPM engines you need more than .045 at times.I had a .060 over 440 with a set of Arias domed pistons and 516 Heads that had .100 milled off of.I had to put a .124 gasket on to keep the valves from hitting with my .650 Flat Tappet cam with 290o Duration at .050.
Now on the HEMI's it is a complete different Geometry to do to keep the valves from Over-Lap collision.
I have had a 501 C.I. motor with 62CC INDY Cyl Heads with a .692 Roller with 286o Duration at .050 and had the piston .020 out of the hole and a .042 gasket leaving .022 piston to head and .030 piston to valve clearance.I broke a rod in this motor and later come to the conclusion that the $800/set rod broke because of hitting the valve(impressions of valve on the pistons)on the piston.

But as for the Gas your buddies used in the 60's on there 383 it had a little thing in it that we don't use anymore in gas at the stations:LEAD(hence the word UNLEADED).Without the LEAD in the gas the molecules burn at a lower rate and therefore have a cooler burn rate and fewer unburned gases going into the air.It also makes a motor without hardened seats in it burn the valve seats,valves and guides out a lot quicker.
 
SSDA67 said:
On higher RPM engines you need more than .045 at times.I had a .060 over 440 with a set of Arias domed pistons and 516 Heads that had .100 milled off of.I had to put a .124 gasket on to keep the valves from hitting with my .650 Flat Tappet cam with 290o Duration at .050.
Now on the HEMI's it is a complete different Geometry to do to keep the valves from Over-Lap collision.
I have had a 501 C.I. motor with 62CC INDY Cyl Heads with a .692 Roller with 286o Duration at .050 and had the piston .020 out of the hole and a .042 gasket leaving .022 piston to head and .030 piston to valve clearance.I broke a rod in this motor and later come to the conclusion that the $800/set rod broke because of hitting the valve(impressions of valve on the pistons)on the piston.
Piston to valve clearance is an entirely different story!! Especially when your talking about domed pistons. Good thing you brought this up, as P to V clearance must be checked while mocking up an engine regardless of piston to head clearance. According to Crane Cams (and a lot of other sources), you must have a minimum of .100" clearance on the intake and .120" on the exhaust. When I say "minimum", I mean that everything else is in perfect condition, no weird valvetrain harmonics, perfectly set up valve springs, no rocker to retainer interference, no retainer to guide interference, etc. The last LA engine I built had a relatively mild cam and flat tops and speced out to .142 and .155. Thirty thousandths with a big *** cam? Ouch!!! Rehr Morrison also recommends .050 between the outside radius of the valve head and the inner edge of the valve relief. By the way, .022" P to H clearance is too tight for a flat top piston (what we were alluding to), not to mention a domed piston. Sorry to hear about your Hemi though, :sad: Must have made one hell of a racket before it let loose.

Rumblefish360
Theres 3.5 million in my county and it just gets denser towards the city.
Yeah, I used to live in Chicago, so I know what you mean. I left for Colorado 12 years ago and never looked back. I do miss the food, the horsepower, friends and family, but visit once a year! Just couldn't stand know-nothing politicians telling me that I couldn't defend my family, myself or my property. :angry4: Sorry! Didn't mean to make this a political thread! :brave:
 
In a nut shell the easy answer is; Given the shape of the combustion chamber of the small block Mopar I would stay around the 9.0:1 for regular fuel. You could go to 9.5:1 but the added change in power would be very, very minimal for the possiblity of detonation from variables in fuel quality, air, etc.

I ran 10.5:1 on regular in my Buicks in the early 80's but back then we had lead in the fuel which really helps against detonation.

Chuck
 
ramcharger, I just ran into a fellow Chi-town fella. He did something along the same lines. But he's in western N.C. where town rolls up the sidewalks at 7:00 PM and the county is dry. (OUCH!!!!)
Sorry! Didn't mean to make this a political thread!
Ahhhhhhh, Thpphhhhh. It's all good.

340mopar Ahhhhhhhhh, the days of real and colored gas. Real gas is purple! :love4:

DusterBoy15; check your threads.

OUI! Also, It just dawned on me that you can polish and coat the head chamber and pistons tops for further detonation resistance.
 
I would think that the cars weight, gearing and converter would all take part in it too.
 
-
Back
Top