Could my 340 block be filled?

[gtgto]

Started up my car tonight and let it warm up to temp. Set the timing and let her run for a while. After shutting the car off for about 15 minutes and then turned the key and she started right up. Shut the car off again and let it sit a while and then turned the key and she started again. That has not happened in the year and a half that I've owned her. Didn't get a chance to go for a ride but I think finally she can be considered dependable. Hoping to not have to call AAA for a while. Will get a chance Sunday to take her out and give her the real test. Pretty excited

Well...Still have issues. After I had a friend come over and weld my Z Bar bracket to the frame I was able to take my car out for a longer cruise than usual. I went to get gas a few miles from my house and when I started her back up she turned for a little while before firing. Since the car was warm I thought it should've started quicker. No big deal....She started. I continued on my ride. Saw a nice 70 Dart Swinger and we both waved to each other. I got a bunch of thumbs ups from passers by in cars, trucks and even motorcycles. Made it home with no issues at all....Seemed to be running great and sounded just as good. Then I put the car back in the garage and parked her. About a 1/2 hour later I go down to turn the key to hear her fire up assuming my no spark issue is behind me and I can be confident when I cruise. No luck at all.....Right back where I started...No spark when warm after sitting. Went into the garage today after the car sat all night and she fired right up. Now what? I have replaced the entire distributor most recently thinking it was a pickup issue.

 

[nm9stheham]

Sorry to hear about this. But it can be fixed. Let's take some troublehooting steps rather than just throwing parts at it.
1) I notice that your ballast connections are corroded a bit. Based on where you live, it would be pretty common to have erratic connections. They can be in the firewall connector, or even back at the ignition switch. Get a decent voltmeter, and make a measurement of voltage at the ballast with the car running; the voltage at the terminal with the blue wires should be no more than 0.5 volts lower than the voltage across the battery terminals when running. If it is lower than that, then you have voltage drop in the connections and wiring that needs to be traced back and fixed. Check this when it first starts as well for a reference.
2) I see the ballast that you got; can you tell me the brand and model? I have some in that shape that are wrong for the Mopar system; they have high resistance and they will drop the spark energy a LOT. So that need to be checked; the shape is a possible clue but the PN is needed to know for sure..
3) Which model of MSD coil do you have? Again, coil primary resistance is important for this system.

 

[gtgto]

Sorry to hear about this. But it can be fixed. Let's take some troublehooting steps rather than just throwing parts at it.
1) I notice that your ballast connections are corroded a bit. Based on where you live, it would be pretty common to have erratic connections. They can be in the firewall connector, or even back at the ignition switch. Get a decent voltmeter, and make a measurement of voltage at the ballast with the car running; the voltage at the terminal with the blue wires should be no more than 0.5 volts lower than the voltage across the battery terminals when running. If it is lower than that, then you have voltage drop in the connections and wiring that needs to be traced back and fixed. Check this when it first starts as well for a reference.
2) I see the ballast that you got; can you tell me the brand and model? I have some in that shape that are wrong for the Mopar system; they have high resistance and they will drop the spark energy a LOT. So that need to be checked; the shape is a possible clue but the PN is needed to know for sure..
3) Which model of MSD coil do you have? Again, coil primary resistance is important for this system.

The coil I bought is a MSD 8222----I'll check the ballast Resistor when I get home.....I think there is numbers on the picture I posted of it. I'm pretty sure it was made by Standard.
From the picture the numbers look like 23979 and 5206836

I will do some voltage checks sometime later tonight.....and post results for when car is first started. Thanks

 

[69_340_GTS]

The coil I bought is a MSD 8222----I'll check the ballast Resistor when I get home.....I think there is numbers on the picture I posted of it. I'm pretty sure it was made by Standard.
From the picture the numbers look like 23979 and 5206836

I will do some voltage checks sometime later tonight.....and post results for when car is first started. Thanks

Did you read this part of the MSD-8222 instructions:
"This Blaster Coil Kit is intended to be used with an MSD Ignition. If installing on a stock, points style ignition system, a 0.8 ohm ballast resistor or resistor wiring must be installed. MSD offers this Ballast Resistor as PN 8214"

 

[gtgto]

I'm pretty sure I did not read the instructions at all and my ballast Resistor doesn't look like the one with the correct part number. I will get some garage time probably tomorrow since its my only night of the week my 11 year old doesn't have hockey.

 

[nm9stheham]

OK, thanks. The coil is a 0.7 ohm primary resistance, which is about 1/2 of stock. Stock is around 1.4-1.6 ohms primary resistance. That is not horrible per se, but will cause the ballast to heat up more than normal.

I cannot find that ballast (Standard's old catalogs aren't online) but it may be a Chevy one at 1.5 ohms cold. Stock is 0.5-0.6 ohms cold. That does not sound like much but......

The ballast resistance will shoot up when hot; it is designed to do that. If you are starting with a 1.5 ohm cold ballast resistance, I have measured those to go up to around 6-7 ohms hot (with a stock coil), while the original type ballast will go up only to about 2 ohms. That resistance dominates over the coil's primary resistance and will set the coil current at about 40% of a stock ballast and stock coil. Since coil energy is proportional to the SQUARE of the current, the coil energy will drop almost sixfold.... and spark voltage will drop too.

But after the ballast cools (in a few minutes) then it ought to be back up there. So that does not explain all of the symptoms, but maybe some of the hot restart issues. (FWIW, it takes about a 30-60 seconds for a ballast to get to its hot resistance.)

Measure the ballast resistance cold, end to end, with one end's wiring disconnected, as follows: First, put the ohmmeter leads together and take a reading of the lead resistance alone; do that a few times and average the readings. Then measure the ballast with the meter and subtract the lead resistance. See what you have and let us know. The Mopar system uses an unusually low ballast resistance and that needs to be maintained.

The MSD ballast PN that 69_340_GTS listed above is 2nd best. The best ballast is an OEM Mopar ballast at the 0.5-0.6 ohm cold resistance range. Either may work OK with that low MSD coil primary resistance, but I would probably use the MSD ballast there. You that you will get as good a spark from a Pertronix Flamethrower 40011 with a 1.5 ohm primary resistance.

This may not be the whole problem but the wrong ballast would just make things worse.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

The coil I bought is a MSD 8222----I'll check the ballast Resistor when I get home.....I think there is numbers on the picture I posted of it. I'm pretty sure it was made by Standard.
From the picture the numbers look like 23979 and 5206836

I will do some voltage checks sometime later tonight.....and post results for when car is first started. Thanks

Don't use the ballast resister with that coil, bypass it.

Also make sure the float level is set right, it's possible , unless you're checking for spark...that it's flooded from bowl pressure bleed off through the mains. Just what I would look into initially with those symptoms.

 

[gtgto]

OK, thanks. The coil is a 0.7 ohm primary resistance, which is about 1/2 of stock. Stock is around 1.4-1.6 ohms primary resistance. That is not horrible per se, but will cause the ballast to heat up more than normal.

I cannot find that ballast (Standard's old catalogs aren't online) but it may be a Chevy one at 1.5 ohms cold. Stock is 0.5-0.6 ohms cold. That does not sound like much but......

The ballast resistance will shoot up when hot; it is designed to do that. If you are starting with a 1.5 ohm cold ballast resistance, I have measured those to go up to around 6-7 ohms hot (with a stock coil), while the original type ballast will go up only to about 2 ohms. That resistance dominates over the coil's primary resistance and will set the coil current at about 40% of a stock ballast and stock coil. Since coil energy is proportional to the SQUARE of the current, the coil energy will drop almost sixfold.... and spark voltage will drop too.

But after the ballast cools (in a few minutes) then it ought to be back up there. So that does not explain all of the symptoms, but maybe some of the hot restart issues. (FWIW, it takes about a 30-60 seconds for a ballast to get to its hot resistance.)

Measure the ballast resistance cold, end to end, with one end's wiring disconnected, as follows: First, put the ohmmeter leads together and take a reading of the lead resistance alone; do that a few times and average the readings. Then measure the ballast with the meter and subtract the lead resistance. See what you have and let us know. The Mopar system uses an unusually low ballast resistance and that needs to be maintained.

The MSD ballast PN that 69_340_GTS listed above is 2nd best. The best ballast is an OEM Mopar ballast at the 0.5-0.6 ohm cold resistance range. Either may work OK with that low MSD coil primary resistance, but I would probably use the MSD ballast there. You that you will get as good a spark from a Pertronix Flamethrower 40011 with a 1.5 ohm primary resistance.

This may not be the whole problem but the wrong ballast would just make things worse.

Thanks for the info......I should be able to get in a few minutes in the garage later with my meter

Don't use the ballast resister with that coil, bypass it.

Also make sure the float level is set right, it's possible , unless you're checking for spark...that it's flooded from bowl pressure bleed off through the mains. Just what I would look into initially with those symptoms.

The Installation manual for the coil specifically says

"This Blaster Coil Kit is intended to be used with an MSD Ignition. If installing on a stock, points style ignition system, a 0.8 ohm ballast resistor or resistor wiring MUST be installed. MSD offers this Ballast Resistor as PN 8214 or the Blaster Coil Kits, PN 8200 and 8203 are equipped with one. WARNING: Failure to use a ballast resistor could result in personal injury or component failure."

Although my iginition was switched from factory points too electronic

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

The Installation manual for the coil says
"This Blaster Coil Kit is intended to be used with an MSD Ignition. If installing on a stock, points style ignition system, a 0.8 ohm ballast resistor or resistor wiring MUST be installed."
Although my iginition was switched from factory points too electronic

As I said...

 

[Dartswinger70]

Its filled with poop, petrifed poop... how did it get from filled block to coil and ballast resistor? I though it was an overheat

 

[gtgto]

Its filled with poop, petrifed poop... how did it get from filled block to coil and ballast resistor? I though it was an overheat

Things have just snowballed since every time I drive my car I have a new issue to report.

 

[nm9stheham]

Don't use the ballast resister with that coil, bypass it.

If you have a 3 OHM coil primary, THEN you do indeed pull out the ballast. But this is a 0.7 OHM coil. The MSD electronic module controls the coil current quite differently than points or the Mopar electronic system so can run this coil without ballast with the MSD module. But you cannot use that MSD configuration with either the points OR Mopar electronic configuration.

You can sometimes get by with it on the strip by running short periods of time, but on the street, it will overload one thing or another in the Mopar electronic ignition (or the points if still being used). Waaay, way, way too much current will flow with this coil and no ballast, which can blow the switching transistor or burn up the coil.... or the voltage kick at the coil (-) will blow out the switching transistor in a different way or take out the condensor.

 

[gtgto]

OK, thanks. The coil is a 0.7 ohm primary resistance, which is about 1/2 of stock. Stock is around 1.4-1.6 ohms primary resistance. That is not horrible per se, but will cause the ballast to heat up more than normal.

I cannot find that ballast (Standard's old catalogs aren't online) but it may be a Chevy one at 1.5 ohms cold. Stock is 0.5-0.6 ohms cold. That does not sound like much but......

The ballast resistance will shoot up when hot; it is designed to do that. If you are starting with a 1.5 ohm cold ballast resistance, I have measured those to go up to around 6-7 ohms hot (with a stock coil), while the original type ballast will go up only to about 2 ohms. That resistance dominates over the coil's primary resistance and will set the coil current at about 40% of a stock ballast and stock coil. Since coil energy is proportional to the SQUARE of the current, the coil energy will drop almost sixfold.... and spark voltage will drop too.

But after the ballast cools (in a few minutes) then it ought to be back up there. So that does not explain all of the symptoms, but maybe some of the hot restart issues. (FWIW, it takes about a 30-60 seconds for a ballast to get to its hot resistance.)

Measure the ballast resistance cold, end to end, with one end's wiring disconnected, as follows: First, put the ohmmeter leads together and take a reading of the lead resistance alone; do that a few times and average the readings. Then measure the ballast with the meter and subtract the lead resistance. See what you have and let us know. The Mopar system uses an unusually low ballast resistance and that needs to be maintained.

The MSD ballast PN that 69_340_GTS listed above is 2nd best. The best ballast is an OEM Mopar ballast at the 0.5-0.6 ohm cold resistance range. Either may work OK with that low MSD coil primary resistance, but I would probably use the MSD ballast there. You that you will get as good a spark from a Pertronix Flamethrower 40011 with a 1.5 ohm primary resistance.

This may not be the whole problem but the wrong ballast would just make things worse.

I was able to check the resistance of both of the ballast resistors I have on hand. One of them measures cold at 1.2 and the other one is 1.4. I didn't get any further than that I didn't do much since I will have to wait till my Parts come Do you have the part number of an OEM ballast resistor I should be using?

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Do what you'd like, but I'll tell you the factory
dual ballast works fine with the blaster coil, if you must run one.

 

[nm9stheham]

2095501 is an old Mopar PN for the stock Mopar ballast and coil; I think there are some equivalent later Mopar PN's. That MSD 8214 is a decent 2nd choice, and if you are running that MSD coil, I would use that.

It will help the spark but I suspect that there are other issues. If you troubleshoot this again, then check for spark in a different way to be more accurate than just looking for the timing light to fire. Take the coil spark wire off of the distributor and place it near metal (valve cover, firewall, etc.); it should jump a 1/4" to 3/8" air gap with a nice blue spark. If you get that when you have starting problems, then the spark is good and you can move on to examining other things.

One possible ignition issue is in the key switch and connections like through the firewall. Before starting next time, hook your + voltmeter lead to the end of the ballast where the blue wire come in, the - voltmeter lead to battery -, and measure the voltage with the key on but not running; then compare that to the voltage with the voltmeter connected across the battery + and -. The difference should 0.5 volts or less. Do the same comparison while cranking, and also while running. If you get a significantly higher voltage difference between battery voltage and ignition input voltage, then you have some electrical connection issues; factory new difference is supposed to be less than 0.3 volts.

As for the hot re-start issues when it sits 5-15 minutes with the motor hot, it sounds like 'vapor lock', where the engine heat soaks the fuel line somewhere, boils the fuel into vapor there, and breaks the suction on the fuel out of the tank.

Or it could be boiling fuel out of the carb when hot and stopped. Next time you stop hot, take off the air cleaner top and listen for a dripping sound and look down in the carb to see if raw fuel is dripping down inside. Sometimes it takes a few minutes of sitting for things to heat soak to maximum temps, and so you may want to wait 5 minutes and then open the hood and make these checks.

BTW, with your symptoms, it's possible that you are getting fuel evaporation from the carb bowl overnight. But that would typically just be slow to fire off, and not have the symptom of never firing.

Is it cool there now, and do you have an electric choke on the carb?

 

[gtgto]

2095501 is an old Mopar PN for the stock Mopar ballast and coil; I think there are some equivalent later Mopar PN's. That MSD 8214 is a decent 2nd choice, and if you are running that MSD coil, I would use that.

It will help the spark but I suspect that there are other issues. If you troubleshoot this again, then check for spark in a different way to be more accurate than just looking for the timing light to fire. Take the coil spark wire off of the distributor and place it near metal (valve cover, firewall, etc.); it should jump a 1/4" to 3/8" air gap with a nice blue spark. If you get that when you have starting problems, then the spark is good and you can move on to examining other things.

One possible ignition issue is in the key switch and connections like through the firewall. Before starting next time, hook your + voltmeter lead to the end of the ballast where the blue wire come in, the - voltmeter lead to battery -, and measure the voltage with the key on but not running; then compare that to the voltage with the voltmeter connected across the battery + and -. The difference should 0.5 volts or less. Do the same comparison while cranking, and also while running. If you get a significantly higher voltage difference between battery voltage and ignition input voltage, then you have some electrical connection issues; factory new difference is supposed to be less than 0.3 volts.

As for the hot re-start issues when it sits 5-15 minutes with the motor hot, it sounds like 'vapor lock', where the engine heat soaks the fuel line somewhere, boils the fuel into vapor there, and breaks the suction on the fuel out of the tank.

Or it could be boiling fuel out of the carb when hot and stopped. Next time you stop hot, take off the air cleaner top and listen for a dripping sound and look down in the carb to see if raw fuel is dripping down inside. Sometimes it takes a few minutes of sitting for things to heat soak to maximum temps, and so you may want to wait 5 minutes and then open the hood and make these checks.

BTW, with your symptoms, it's possible that you are getting fuel evaporation from the carb bowl overnight. But that would typically just be slow to fire off, and not have the symptom of never firing.

Is it cool there now, and do you have an electric choke on the carb?

No electric choke....Stock AVS carb and mechanical choke. Thanks for the help......I'll get back to you after the new ballast is installed

As a quick check after the car is hot and will not fire I do use the timing light and see no light when cranking its safe to say I have no spark at all correct? That has been the case for a while and would cut out the other checks entirely. I will check voltages at ballast cold, then hot and see how it goes......While I'm waiting for my delivery I am going to also try and clean up the the bulkhead connections the best I can.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Things have just snowballed since every time I drive my car I have a new issue to report.

Oh **** man, I sorry to hear that. Ya know its funny, even back in the day Mopar was hit or miss, either they ran good and dependable, or they let ya sit once or twice a week. Well thats an exaggeration, but the good thing was, you could get them running on the side of the road if ya had to.

 

[nm9stheham]

As a quick check after the car is hot and will not fire I do use the timing light and see no light when cranking its safe to say I have no spark at all correct?

You're quite welcomed on the help. FABO is pretty darned good for that.

Well that is the point I am trying to make..... the timing light pickup has a sensitivity threshold and if the spark energy drops down a bit, it might not trigger the timing light but still have some spark energy. So that it why I would check it as suggested; you are truly going to see if you have some spark or no spark.... which is a very good clue.... and you also may observe that the spark is more yellow and less 'snappy' when hot..... another good clues. The timing light firing or not is masking some possible good information that actually LOOKING at the spark in open air can give you.

 

[ifishinbc]

I too have had the exact, same hot start issues as the OP. I have '67 Dart, 273 V8, with the Mopar electronic ignition conversion.
I have not yet installed the electronic voltage regulator as suggested in the Direct Connection Racing Manual.
I'm not to the bottom of this with mine, all the voltage checks test good, at the time. Installed my spare coil and its been much better and not let me down lately.
When I had a no spark condition, I installed a spare control box, and would have spark, and fire back up. Next morning, plug the original control box back in, and it would fire right up.
I'm suspecting it may be a bad connection, maybe at the bulk head, or ignition switch, even though when it fails there is voltage at the coil and ballast resistor.
I'll post back when I am confident I actually have this issue fixed, but driving season in my area is almost over.
Stay tuned!

 

[69_340_GTS]

Coil gets hot, or ignition box gets hot, and they stop working. I fought a similar battle for several Summers. Finally trashed the Mopar and/or stock-type replacement parts. Replaced everything with MSD stuff and in the process also got rid of the ballast. Guess what? No more problems.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

I too have had the exact, same hot start issues as the OP. I have '67 Dart, 273 V8, with the Mopar electronic ignition conversion.
I have not yet installed the electronic voltage regulator as suggested in the Direct Connection Racing Manual.
I'm not to the bottom of this with mine, all the voltage checks test good, at the time. Installed my spare coil and its been much better and not let me down lately.
When I had a no spark condition, I installed a spare control box, and would have spark, and fire back up. Next morning, plug the original control box back in, and it would fire right up.
I'm suspecting it may be a bad connection, maybe at the bulk head, or ignition switch, even though when it fails there is voltage at the coil and ballast resistor.
I'll post back when I am confident I actually have this issue fixed, but driving season in my area is almost over.
Stay tuned!

When it stops working...take a 7/16 and loosen and re tighten the modules mounting bolts, as well as the voltage regulator.....then try and restart it.
Could very well be resistance in the grounding.
You could also run a ground wire from engine to regulator and ignition module mounting bolts.

 

[ifishinbc]

When it stops working...take a 7/16 and loosen and re tighten the modules mounting bolts, as well as the voltage regulator.....then try and restart it.
Could very well be resistance in the grounding.
You could also run a ground wire from engine to regulator and ignition module mounting bolts.

Yes, I certainly wouldn't discount that with a 50 year old car. Thanks.