Crank Trigged Mopar engines?

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HP2

HP2

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I built a crank trigger some years ago for a 440 but in the end I had to buy an expensive aftermarket "brain" to be able to set the parameters. It works very good and the ignition was as good as I expected, if not better.
I don't remember where I found it or the manufacturer and I don't care because it was so expensive and I like to be cheap.

My question was if it would be possible to find something usable on a junk yard? Wheel and sensor you can buy anywhere, but the rest?
I'm not going EFI, I just want an excellent ignition that sparks exactly where it should be, I know how much better my crank trigged 440 runs!
To get a timing point for all eight cylinders is very difficult via timing chain - cam/distributor gears - play in distributor and that tiny reluctor wheel. And upon that phasing. Ever experienced a scattering timing mark using the timing light? No more. Steady as a rock.

After hours googling and just getting "MSD Cranc Trigger" results I found something interesting.
I have just ordered a Megajolt Lite Jr: https://wiki.autosportlabs.com/MegaJolt_Lite_Jr.
and then a Ford Edis-8 module complete with coils on ebay for $75. A friend had a trigger wheel for $20 so all I have to buy now is the pickup.

I will get a fully programmable crank trigger ignition for less than $300 plus a little fabrication of mounts and weld the wheel to the crank pulley.

I will get fully adjustable timing curve, rev limit and also vacuum advance. Even data logging is possible. And if the day comes I can connect an EFI to it.

Maybe I have missed something but I don't see any advantages with MSD crank trigger system?
I really don't understand why I'm so alone on this path...
 
You're alone because you're not just switching to EFI and being done with it.
 
HP2 said:
I built a crank trigger some years ago for a 440 but in the end I had to buy an expensive aftermarket "brain" to be able to set the parameters. It works very good and the ignition was as good as I expected, if not better.
I don't remember where I found it or the manufacturer and I don't care because it was so expensive and I like to be cheap.

My question was if it would be possible to find something usable on a junk yard? Wheel and sensor you can buy anywhere, but the rest?
I'm not going EFI, I just want an excellent ignition that sparks exactly where it should be, I know how much better my crank trigged 440 runs!
To get a timing point for all eight cylinders is very difficult via timing chain - cam/distributor gears - play in distributor and that tiny reluctor wheel. And upon that phasing. Ever experienced a scattering timing mark using the timing light? No more. Steady as a rock.

After hours googling and just getting "MSD Cranc Trigger" results I found something interesting.
I have just ordered a Megajolt Lite Jr: https://wiki.autosportlabs.com/MegaJolt_Lite_Jr.
and then a Ford Edis-8 module complete with coils on ebay for $75. A friend had a trigger wheel for $20 so all I have to buy now is the pickup.

I will get a fully programmable crank trigger ignition for less than $300 plus a little fabrication of mounts and weld the wheel to the crank pulley.

I will get fully adjustable timing curve, rev limit and also vacuum advance. Even data logging is possible. And if the day comes I can connect an EFI to it.

Maybe I have missed something but I don't see any advantages with MSD crank trigger system?
I really don't understand why I'm so alone on this path...
Click to expand...
I'm curious how well this works. Be sure to post videos and pics when you get it going
 
I have two cars running the Ford EDIS ignition (waste spark, 36-1 wheel).

One is a 440 with a carburetor, so the ignition is run by a Megajolt box. The other is a 408 with Holley Terminator EFI running coil drivers that fire factory EDIS coils.

I've actually listed 36-1 trigger wheels here before: [FOR SALE] - 36-1 Crank Trigger Wheels 318/340/360/383/440
 
I noticed just moving to an optical ignition on my old 71 Vette made the timing mark rock steady. Timing it with the old points was a "close enough" setup with a timing light. Put in the optical points eliminator kit and that line is dead on every hit. I get what you're saying about slack in the timing chain and stuff making things somewhat less consistent, but I'm not sure you really need a full crank trigger setup to have a noticeable improvement over points.
 
Map63Vette said:
I noticed just moving to an optical ignition on my old 71 Vette made the timing mark rock steady. Timing it with the old points was a "close enough" setup with a timing light. Put in the optical points eliminator kit and that line is dead on every hit. I get what you're saying about slack in the timing chain and stuff making things somewhat less consistent, but I'm not sure you really need a full crank trigger setup to have a noticeable improvement over points.
Click to expand...

I fully understand it was an improvement from points, but I'm referring to Mopar Electronic ignition with ECU or MSD billet distributor and 6AL and comparable solutions as most of us use.
A MSD kit as mentioned is around 600 bucks. For that money you still don't get the precision over a crank trigger and I swear you won't change weights and springs to adjust timing curve in a couple of minutes. AND you wont get the chance to run vacuum advance as you should on a street driven car.
 
wish4hemi said:
I have two cars running the Ford EDIS ignition (waste spark, 36-1 wheel).

One is a 440 with a carburetor, so the ignition is run by a Megajolt box. The other is a 408 with Holley Terminator EFI running coil drivers that fire factory EDIS coils.

I've actually listed 36-1 trigger wheels here before: [FOR SALE] - 36-1 Crank Trigger Wheels 318/340/360/383/440
Click to expand...

Wow, that looks nice! Sorry, I have not seen your post before.
Fun to hear someone else is on the same track!
Educate me on cam sensor, what does it do?

About the tack welding, I did exactly like you have done on your pics and it came loose twice. It needed three 1" welds to stay in place!
 
HP2 said:
I fully understand it was an improvement from points, but I'm referring to Mopar Electronic ignition with ECU or MSD billet distributor and 6AL and comparable solutions as most of us use.
A MSD kit as mentioned is around 600 bucks. For that money you still don't get the precision over a crank trigger and I swear you won't change weights and springs to adjust timing curve in a couple of minutes. AND you wont get the chance to run vacuum advance as you should on a street driven car.
Click to expand...
Ah, okay, I see what you're getting at. Admittedly having electronic control is pretty nice. I went with a Megasquirt setup on the 5.7 Hemi in my 67 using and MSD Hemi6 to run the ignition since I had a carb on the setup originally. Figuring out the vacuum settings takes a minute to get your head wrapped around absolute pressure vs. gauge pressure, but if you watch the traces with the engine running it starts making a little more sense. Does the MegaJolt have any provisions for an intake vacuum/pressure sensor or is it strictly mechanical? It may not make the most sense, but you could alway use a Megasquirt setup and just not run fuel injectors if you wanted vacuum control (assuming the MegaJolt doesn't already provide that).

Edit: Nevermind, just looked at the link you posted. Guessing the Megajolt is exactly what I described, just a Megasquirt with no fuel injection channels. Haven't heard of that one before, but neat idea. They are adapting those to do just about anything lately.
 
HP2 said:
Educate me on cam sensor, what does it do?
Click to expand...

The cam sensor is required if you want to drive each spark plug independently, such as a coil-on-plug (COP) system. The Ford EDIS setup fires as "waste spark" where pairs of cylinders spark at the same time. (1,6) , (8,5) , (4,7) , and (3,2) fire as pairs in waste spark, but one of the cylinders is firing on the exhaust stroke. Therefore, I do not run a cam sensor.
 
HP2 said:
I have seen endless EFI engines with distributors. I wont get away with a bad ignition just because I get rid of the carb.
Click to expand...

I concur, but for the level you're taking ignition, you're not but a step or two from the excellent improvements offered by efi.

Just an fyi, I'm currently thought-experimenting on how to add a crank signaled Mopar ecu to my lawnmower, so no, you're not alone.
 
jos51700 said:
I concur, but for the level you're taking ignition, you're not but a step or two from the excellent improvements offered by efi.

Just an fyi, I'm currently thought-experimenting on how to add a crank signaled Mopar ecu to my lawnmower, so no, you're not alone.
Click to expand...

Right. As I said in my first comment - I'm cheap! For sure, an EFI would be far better than a carb. But if you want to make hp and don't drive it much (which is the case for my 440 Charger) it's easier and cheaper to use one of the carbs you probably have then go out shopping EFI.

The one I'm building now is for a redneck 360 that's gonna be the powerplant in a 63 Valiant rat rod. Only used parts and home made milling and fabbing. First goal is to get into the 7's (1/8 mile) under 2 grand.
Spending money on a crank trigger then sounds strange and awkward but I like what it did to the 440. Heck, a MP electronic kit is 200!

Sounds cool with a crank trigged lawnmower!
 
jos51700 said:
I concur, but for the level you're taking ignition, you're not but a step or two from the excellent improvements offered by efi.

Just an fyi, I'm currently thought-experimenting on how to add a crank signaled Mopar ecu to my lawnmower, so no, you're not alone.
Click to expand...
That kinda reminds me of my masters project in college. We had a 2 cylinder Onan generator that was fuel injected that we were converting to an aftermarket ECU so we could tune it to test different fuel the chemistry people were working on. Had to make our own cam and crank trigger wheels, but I finally managed to get it working. The big issue is that I inherited the project from someone else, so I was trying to work with what was already there and found out when digging in further that it wasn't really done the best. Biggest issue was the cam and crank sensors were not mounted solidly enough, so it kept dropping the signals. Fast forward a few years and after putting a Megasquirt on my Dart I wish I knew then what I know now. Would have been much cheaper for the college and I probably would have been done faster, but what's done is done. Would like to go back and do it again though.
 
wish4hemi said:
The cam sensor is required if you want to drive each spark plug independently, such as a coil-on-plug (COP) system. The Ford EDIS setup fires as "waste spark" where pairs of cylinders spark at the same time. (1,6) , (8,5) , (4,7) , and (3,2) fire as pairs in waste spark, but one of the cylinders is firing on the exhaust stroke. Therefore, I do not run a cam sensor.
Click to expand...

Allright.
But as long as you assume your crank is true 45 degrees apart you can rely on the crank trigger. A hall sensor does more or less the same as the crank trigger right?
Waste spark doesn't bother me at all.
 
Do you want to have a digital control and an ignition curve you can tailor throughout the range, or do you just want to skip the distributor?

If just to skip the distributor you can mount/weld a 4-tooth wheel to the crank's pulley, mount a Hall or VR sensor and have that trigger a GM-module.
But that leaves you with a timing setup without having centrigufal and vacuum advance.

If you want that, you might want to look into the 'Black Box' made by CB Performance.
Also comes with a vacuum port so it can sense engine-load.
It's a simple little box with a multitude of ways to trigger it with and program your timing advance with it with an alterable timing table.

I have one on those, had it running a number of times, but I toasted it while benchtesting some dwell settings one day and went to far.
 
HP2 said:
Allright.
But as long as you assume your crank is true 45 degrees apart you can rely on the crank trigger. A hall sensor does more or less the same as the crank trigger right?
Waste spark doesn't bother me at all.
Click to expand...

The camshaft sensor is basically providing an ECU with a home position to control fully sequential fuel and spark when used in conjunction with a crank sensor.

A hall sensor is a three wire powered sensor, power, ground and signal. It outputs a digital square voltage wave. Common reference voltage is right around 5 volts. VR sensor is a magnetic pickup. 2 wire, signal and ground. Teeth on the wheel change the magnetic flux as they pass by the sensor and this creates an alternating voltage, which the ECU has to condition to digital.

So they do the same thing just different ways.
 
stroker416 said:
So they do the same thing just different ways.
Click to expand...

Correct, although the EDIS system comes from Ford with a magnetic (VR) sensor. Plenty of good sensor selection from '93 - '96 Ford/Lincoln/Mercury 4, 6, or 8 cylinder vehicles. They're usually about $20 at any local auto parts store (not including pigtail).
 
BigBlockMopar said:
Do you want to have a digital control and an ignition curve you can tailor throughout the range, or do you just want to skip the distributor?

If just to skip the distributor you can mount/weld a 4-tooth wheel to the crank's pulley, mount a Hall or VR sensor and have that trigger a GM-module.
But that leaves you with a timing setup without having centrigufal and vacuum advance.

If you want that, you might want to look into the 'Black Box' made by CB Performance.
Also comes with a vacuum port so it can sense engine-load.
It's a simple little box with a multitude of ways to trigger it with and program your timing advance with it with an alterable timing table.

I have one on those, had it running a number of times, but I toasted it while benchtesting some dwell settings one day and went to far.
Click to expand...

I want to get an exact timing so I want to get rid of the distributor, and I want fully controllable curve, rev limiter and vacuum advance. It seems like MegaJolt and junkyard Ford parts will take me there for less than $300. If it's true I'm happy. We'll see after winter!
 
Sounds like the last slant 6 I bought. it was used as an oval race motor. I found the vac advance hole plugged with a block of wood, wiring went I don't know where and under the cap had no rotor, also had a gm/Rochester throttle body fabricated(horribly) to the slant 1bbl intake. There was a timing wire on the front of the block also instead of the timing tab. Never did get to see how this set up worked. Also came with 3 cams. When I got it home I thought WTH??? Its since been converted to the gm hei ignition
 
HP2 said:
It seems like MegaJolt and junkyard Ford parts will take me there for less than $300. If it's true I'm happy. We'll see after winter!
Click to expand...

Don't forget to grab the spark plug wires. The coil ends are EDIS-specific. I have right around $325 in each of my setups.
 
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