Curious front end issue. Ideas wanted

[like_A_pike]

Orange car has stock lower control arms and front sway bar. the rear links look like they were replaced at some point but bushing look ok. the upper control arms and struts are adjustable RMS and bushing look ok. All joints are newish (10 not 56 years old) but the dust boots on the upper ball joints never fit right. Shocks are at least 15 year old KYB nothing specials and the springs are original 318 bars. Car was a base model 318 car from the factory.

When I bought the car in '11 it was resting on the bump stops and had a bent strut. When I replace them I tried to adjust them to the original strut length. Then I raised the front off the stops by a couple inches and had it aligned. Ever since the car stays a few inches higher than usual after jacking it up for work, until I drive it around a little and it gradually falls back down to position I set it at after a few minutes. It is really hard to "jounce" by hand. On curvy roads it handles really great. Problem is, I would kinda like to loosen it up for weight transfer when tuning at the track. What do you think is making the front end stiff like this?

thanks in advance.

 

[sccachallenger]

Can't believe it would be this, after all this time.
But I'd loosen the lower control arm pin nuts, the upper arm eccentrics a little, and lower shock bolts.
Then set the tires on some blocks or ramps and retorque everything at ride height!
I might also loosen the sway bar links and make sure the sway bar isn't pre-loaded.
If you didn't do this work yourself you have no idea if all the parts were torqued at ride height.
The rear suspension should also get the same treatment.

 

[remytherat]

I think the LCA bushings having been torqued with the suspension hanging down is a good diagnosis: they will be heavily preloaded at ride height. Could also be due to a strut rod being too short/long, causing the LCA to bind.

 

[like_A_pike]

So that I am clear; Should I raise the car and loosen everything while it's hanging and then lower the car on blocks and re torque? Including the torsion bars at the LCA, Yes?

 

[AJ/FormS]

It doesn't matter when you loose the LCAs.
It only matters that you not tighten them until the car is at ride height.
If you loose the UCAs, you will likely lose your alignment, so I would not do that.
Some aftermarket BJs are extremely tight, and will sorta "stick" which will cause wandering

 

[sccachallenger]

Yes, first after loosening everything and sitting on blocks, measure and. adjust ride height.
I'd disconnect sway bar on one side to verify it isn't pre-loaded which can affect height.
I always loosen the lower control arm nuts before adjusting ride height.

 

[like_A_pike]

Ok so I’m sure that I didn’t loosen them when I cranked the height up. Thanks for the guidance!

 

[72bluNblu]

How many miles have you driven since you did the work and raised the suspension? Are you running stock strut rods?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Orange car has stock lower control arms and front sway bar. the rear links look like they were replaced at some point but bushing look ok. the upper control arms and struts are adjustable RMS and bushing look ok. All joints are newish (10 not 56 years old) but the dust boots on the upper ball joints never fit right. Shocks are at least 15 year old KYB nothing specials and the springs are original 318 bars. Car was a base model 318 car from the factory.

When I bought the car in '11 it was resting on the bump stops and had a bent strut. When I replace them I tried to adjust them to the original strut length. Then I raised the front off the stops by a couple inches and had it aligned. Ever since the car stays a few inches higher than usual after jacking it up for work, until I drive it around a little and it gradually falls back down to position I set it at after a few minutes. It is really hard to "jounce" by hand. On curvy roads it handles really great. Problem is, I would kinda like to loosen it up for weight transfer when tuning at the track. What do you think is making the front end stiff like this?

thanks in advance.

All what you describe is normal. You cannot jounce the car with the tires sitting on the ground. They must be on something that allows motion like an alignment turnplate. So that's why the car doesn't settle until moved. You might try loosening the control arm fasteners and retightening while the weight is on the tires.

 

[Wvbuzzmaster]

All what you describe is normal. You cannot jounce the car with the tires sitting on the ground. They must be on something that allows motion like an alignment turnplate. So that's why the car doesn't settle until moved.

This is the correct answer. I’ve done the front alignment on my Duster and reset the torsion bar height after settling a few times now and what I found is 1/4 turn on torsion bar adjustment, drive around block, remeasure, repeat until you like the number. I tried that using the “jounce” method and added like an inch of height by accident. You have no issue, just overthinking how this suspension design works. It is not leafs, it is not coils, it does not work the same.

Some alignment shops are “scared” of torsion bars because they think they align differently. The torsion bars are only a height adjustment and affect alignment only if adjusted after the fact. After the ride height is set, alignment process is typical unless you ever take the weight off the car, then it’s a tighten hardware, lap around the block, back to measuring. More steps but not really… a Mopar can be aligned in a driveway with hand tools and tape measures, I have done it. And arguably easier, because “jounce” doesn’t work as well as driving to settle the car. Others may disagree but the end result is the same, just different ways to get there.

 

[like_A_pike]

How many miles have you driven since you did the work and raised the suspension? Are you running stock strut rods?

Jeez, maybe 10-15k. I did the height thing back in 2016! The bent strut was yanked and a pair of adjustable RMS went in at that time. If there is a spec on that adjustment, I wish I knew what it was!

 

[Inertia]

Toe outta whack will cause wheels to bind, raise/lower car, makes car difficult to roll.
Just throwing it out there .

 

[RustyRatRod]

Jeez, maybe 10-15k. I did the height thing back in 2016! The bent strut was yanked and a pair of adjustable RMS went in at that time. If there is a spec on that adjustment, I wish I knew what it was!

There is a spec. while going back together with the torsion bars out, shocks off and the strut rods connected to the LCA, you adjust the strut rods until you get smooth and fluid motion through the arc of suspension travel then lock it down. If that makes sense.

 

[like_A_pike]

There is a spec. while going back together with the torsion bars out, shocks off and the strut rods connected to the LCA, you adjust the strut rods until you get smooth and fluid motion through the arc of suspension travel then lock it down. If that makes sense.

…& I was just wondering what project to do this winter. No way to cheat and get close w/o fiddling with my alignment?

 

[72bluNblu]

All what you describe is normal. You cannot jounce the car with the tires sitting on the ground. They must be on something that allows motion like an alignment turnplate. So that's why the car doesn't settle until moved. You might try loosening the control arm fasteners and retightening while the weight is on the tires.

Totally agree, "jouncing" the car to settle the suspension doesn't work effectively. The camber and toe changes with travel, when you jack the car up and lower it the tires make contact with the ground with the suspension fully extended. Then the friction from the contact patch of the tires tends to resist the changes in suspension geometry as the car is lowered, effectively holding the suspension up. It requires rolling the tire to fully settle the suspension.

The only way that doesn't happen is if the tires can slide easily on the ground, so narrower tires have less of this effect, and wider tires worsen this effect. Putting the car on slip plates (like when it's being aligned) solves the issue.

Jeez, maybe 10-15k. I did the height thing back in 2016! The bent strut was yanked and a pair of adjustable RMS went in at that time. If there is a spec on that adjustment, I wish I knew what it was!

I really doubt that loosening the re-torquing the suspension at this point will make much of a difference. If you have rubber LCA bushings, and they were torqued with the suspension fully extended, it's likely that your LCA bushings have given up by now. If they're still in good shape then they were probably torqued at ride height, and the car may have been lowered (or settled further with the original torsion bars) after that. So raising it may have put them closer to where they were torqued. Either way loosening the LCA pivot nuts and re-torquing them won't hurt anything, but in your case I doubt it will change much either.

There is definitely a procedure for setting the length on the adjustable strut rods, I'll add it below RRR's quote.

There is a spec. while going back together with the torsion bars out, shocks off and the strut rods connected to the LCA, you adjust the strut rods until you get smooth and fluid motion through the arc of suspension travel then lock it down. If that makes sense.

Mostly agree, it's best I think to do this with the torsion bars installed and only the torsion bar adjusters removed. The more suspension that is assembled the closer the results will be to what's happening when it's going down the road.

I set the LCA up to start so that it is perpendicular to the frame, and the goal of the adjustment is for the LCA to be free of any binding when it travels up and down. Adjustable strut rods are not for adjusting the alignment specs, although you may see a change in the alignment numbers after installing them. The goal is the free movement of the LCA up and down, while reducing movement fore/aft.

You'll want to have as much of the suspension installed as possible while still being able to check for resistance/binding. So, torsion bars in, UCA's, spindles, LCA's installed. You'll need to remove the torsion bar adjusters so you can cycle the LCA up and down by hand. You'll also need the shocks out, and if you have a front sway bar you will want that disconnected as well. Then cycle the suspension up and down, from bump stop to bump stop, and check for binding. If you know where in the range of travel your ride height is that will be better too, since you'll want that to be the neutral spot. It takes a little trial and error, especially the first time, to get a feel for what is normal resistance and what is binding. When you think you have it good, put another turn on the adjustment in one direction or the other and see what that does. If you're right, it should be more binding, if you're not, you may get less so that's the direction to keep adjusting until the binding starts to come back.

I've found with my cars that the adjustable strut rod ends up being a bit shorter than the factory strut rod, but I also use Delrin or poly LCA bushings, so the LCA may be slightly farther forward with that arrangement than with the stock bushings. Typically I've found that the ride height/neutral spot has a small amount of tension on the strut rod when the LCA is most free from any binding within its range of travel. This also keeps the LCA from moving backward any while it's traveling, which is good because that movement results in a negative caster change. This may be different for some though because your ride height may not be centered between the bump stops.

…& I was just wondering what project to do this winter. No way to cheat and get close w/o fiddling with my alignment?

Not really. The only way it won't change your alignment is if your strut rods are already the correct length. Any significant adjustment of the length of the strut rods will change your alignment numbers, primarily your caster setting. Changes in ride height affect everything.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Totally agree, "jouncing" the car to settle the suspension doesn't work effectively. The camber and toe changes with travel, when you jack the car up and lower it the tires make contact with the ground with the suspension fully extended. Then the friction from the contact patch of the tires tends to resist the changes in suspension geometry as the car is lowered, effectively holding the suspension up. It requires rolling the tire to fully settle the suspension.

The only way that doesn't happen is if the tires can slide easily on the ground, so narrower tires have less of this effect, and wider tires worsen this effect. Putting the car on slip plates (like when it's being aligned) solves the issue.


I really doubt that loosening the re-torquing the suspension at this point will make much of a difference. If you have rubber LCA bushings, and they were torqued with the suspension fully extended, it's likely that your LCA bushings have given up by now. If they're still in good shape then they were probably torqued at ride height, and the car may have been lowered (or settled further with the original torsion bars) after that. So raising it may have put them closer to where they were torqued. Either way loosening the LCA pivot nuts and re-torquing them won't hurt anything, but in your case I doubt it will change much either.

There is definitely a procedure for setting the length on the adjustable strut rods, I'll add it below RRR's quote.


Mostly agree, it's best I think to do this with the torsion bars installed and only the torsion bar adjusters removed. The more suspension that is assembled the closer the results will be to what's happening when it's going down the road.

I set the LCA up to start so that it is perpendicular to the frame, and the goal of the adjustment is for the LCA to be free of any binding when it travels up and down. Adjustable strut rods are not for adjusting the alignment specs, although you may see a change in the alignment numbers after installing them. The goal is the free movement of the LCA up and down, while reducing movement fore/aft.

You'll want to have as much of the suspension installed as possible while still being able to check for resistance/binding. So, torsion bars in, UCA's, spindles, LCA's installed. You'll need to remove the torsion bar adjusters so you can cycle the LCA up and down by hand. You'll also need the shocks out, and if you have a front sway bar you will want that disconnected as well. Then cycle the suspension up and down, from bump stop to bump stop, and check for binding. If you know where in the range of travel your ride height is that will be better too, since you'll want that to be the neutral spot. It takes a little trial and error, especially the first time, to get a feel for what is normal resistance and what is binding. When you think you have it good, put another turn on the adjustment in one direction or the other and see what that does. If you're right, it should be more binding, if you're not, you may get less so that's the direction to keep adjusting until the binding starts to come back.

I've found with my cars that the adjustable strut rod ends up being a bit shorter than the factory strut rod, but I also use Delrin or poly LCA bushings, so the LCA may be slightly farther forward with that arrangement than with the stock bushings. Typically I've found that the ride height/neutral spot has a small amount of tension on the strut rod when the LCA is most free from any binding within its range of travel. This also keeps the LCA from moving backward any while it's traveling, which is good because that movement results in a negative caster change. This may be different for some though because your ride height may not be centered between the bump stops.




Not really. The only way it won't change your alignment is if your strut rods are already the correct length. Any significant adjustment of the length of the strut rods will change your alignment numbers, primarily your caster setting. Changes in ride height affect everything.

Thanks. I knew the torsion bars didn't need to influence things.

 

[72bluNblu]

Thanks. I knew the torsion bars didn't need to influence things.

Realistically it probably doesn't make a difference. I like to have them in because it means the LCA torsion bar socket is going to be located exactly like it will be when the car is on the road. But it's pretty unlikely the torsion bar will move it much, because they won't slide in if they do.

Either way the motion of the LCA is going to be slightly different because of how it rotates without the adjusters in place. Dropping the adjusters is certainly easier than pulling the bars if the bars are already installed.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Realistically it probably doesn't make a difference. I like to have them in because it means the LCA torsion bar socket is going to be located exactly like it will be when the car is on the road. But it's pretty unlikely the torsion bar will move it much, because they won't slide in if they do.

Either way the motion of the LCA is going to be slightly different because of how it rotates without the adjusters in place. Dropping the adjusters is certainly easier than pulling the bars if the bars are already installed.

That's a valid argument. Thanks for the point!

 

[like_A_pike]

The more suspension that is assembled the closer the results will be to what's happening when it's going down the road.

I set the LCA up to start so that it is perpendicular to the frame, and the goal of the adjustment is for the LCA to be free of any binding when it travels up and

You'll want to have as much of the suspension installed as possible while still being able to check for resistance/binding. So, torsion bars in, UCA's, spindles, LCA's installed. You'll need to remove the torsion bar adjusters so you can cycle the LCA up and down by hand. You'll also need the shocks out, and if you have a front sway bar you will want that disconnected as well. Then cycle the suspension up and down, from bump stop to bump stop, and check for binding.

I’ve seen you post parts of this in a dozen threads over the years and hoped you’d chime in. That’s the soup and the nuts! Thanks

 

[sccachallenger]

And agree, when setting height, roll the car back and forth to settle the tires.
More helpful than jouncing.

 

[1973dust]

I don't know if this will help you or not but when I aligned my Duster, I set both front tires on a pair of thin teflon cooking sheets from the dollar store with grease between them. They seemed to work great to let the tires go where they wanted when adjusting. I got the idea from someone on here.

 

[72bluNblu]

I’ve seen you post parts of this in a dozen threads over the years and hoped you’d chime in. That’s the soup and the nuts! Thanks

I’ve seen a couple sets of instructions for the adjustable strut rods and they really don’t do a great job explaining it. And some don’t come with any instructions!

In their defense it’s kinda hard to explain, especially to someone that may or may not have a complete understanding of the suspension, its geometry, how it changes as it travels etc. Which absolutely described me when I did my first adjustable strut rod install on my Challenger like 15 years ago. Having a gone through the process of setting the length and checking for binding a bunch of times now on both my Challenger and my Duster (every time I changed lower control arm stuff, which is few times each) it's a bit easier to describe just going through the process step by step. It's still going to be trial and error if you've never done it before, just trying to figure out what the binding feels like vs what it feels when there's none takes some feel. And its different depending on what other parts you have, if you've got rubber LCA bushings there will always be some resistance, if you've got poly or Delrin bushings everywhere then there's less resistance overall and the binding is more obvious.

I think it's easiest starting with the LCA's perpendicular, running it through the travel several times to get the feel (it should be close to neutral there), and then shortening the strut rods until the binding is really obvious works best. At that point you should be able to see the LCA being pulled forward. Then you lengthen it again until all the binding is gone if possible, or just in a small window right at the extreme ends of suspension travel before it hits the bump stops. And it may take lengthening them until the binding starts up and then shortening them again back into the sweet spot, especially if your combination of parts, ride height etc mean that there will be a little window at the ends of the travel where there's some resistance. The first few times doing it will take a lot longer to get the feel and figure out if you've got it in the best spot, but it's worth it to get it right.

I don't know if this will help you or not but when I aligned my Duster, I set both front tires on a pair of thin teflon cooking sheets from the dollar store with grease between them. They seemed to work great to let the tires go where they wanted when adjusting. I got the idea from someone on here.

Yessir, poor man's turn plates right there. Teflon plates, even metal plates with dish soap or grease between them work well enough. Just have to get the tires to slip easily on the floor so they don't load the suspension up with the friction of moving the tire on the floor.

 

[like_A_pike]

it's a bit easier to describe just going through the process step by step. It's still going to be trial and error if you've never done it before, just trying to figure out what the binding feels like vs what it feels when there's none takes some feel. And its different depending on what other parts you have

certainly appreciated, I don't remember any instructions with the struts but I think the proprietor was very approachable. Kinda wish they still did individual suspension parts. Im kinda partial to the old Mopar front end and spring config. Additionally, YouTube is full of folks doing front suspension videos but NONE of them I've been through so far described any nuances regarding adjustable struts or troubleshooting them.

since Im on the subject of nuance and the mention of individual parts.... I notice that the distance between the bushings for stock sway bars are different between after market sway bar end link manufacturers. Its hard to describe but many of them (and there seem to be a lot) advertise that they "fit" my model with stock equipment but the sleeve or the ferrules that hold the sway bar apart from the LCA are almost all different lengths. I can't say that guidance in the manual is very forthcoming either. My question is would a longer distance force more pre load into the sway bar and effect the freedom of movement (travel) of the LCA? Maybe longer would help compensate for or restore spring to a tired bar?