Dart won't stay running.

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BGDart

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Hey all, I've been racking my brain trying to get my Dart to stay running. It's a '71 Dart Swinger with a 318 and a 2 barrel Carter BBD. I don't know all the mechanical history of the car other than it's a family car and it's always been running. It was sitting for a few years before I got to it. It still sits but only because of this issue. I've had the issue for a while and in my spare time I've tinkered and tried different things to get it going without blindly throwing money at it.

What happens is I can start it and it may run for a couple to ten seconds before quickly and smoothly dying flat out. I can start it and rev it up and it will still die out the same way. I have hooked up a remote starter to it and looked down the carb at the venturi cluster while it runs. What I can see is fuel visibly dripping from the center of the venturis down onto the the throttle plate and then dying. Sometimes I can start it again and it will run for a short time but more often than not I have to let it air out because it seems to be flooded. If I open the throttle plate some thick gas fumes will slowly work their way up from the intake manifold. As far as I know, that means it's flooded.

When I first got the car it wasn't running because a rubber fuel line from the fuel filter to the fuel pump had rotted out. Air was free to dry out the fuel pump at this point and the diaphragm no longer worked. I replaced the pump and filter and it started up great and ran fine. I changed the oil and was able to drive down to a gas station and back without issue. I was able to drive it around town to a few body shops without issue as well. A few months later I went to start it and it died within a few minutes.

My initial thought was the float went bad. I bought a rebuild kit and float and made sure everything was to spec and there was zero change. Next I thought a vacuum leak could have been the problem. I ended up replacing the intake manifold gaskets with no change as well. I've used a remote starter to turn over the engine with the top of the carb off to make sure the float valve was closing when it reached the proper level. It closes and completely stops excess fuel. I have even disconnected the fuel line at the carb, plugged it, started the engine and it still pulls too much fuel and floods. I was able to get it running once with the top off the carb and observed the vacuum piston closing so the metering rods were fully pressed into the jets. The float valve was also closed and not spewing fuel.

I'm now thinking something could be deteriorated inside the carb that would allow too much fuel to come through. Or there could still be a vacuum leak of some form deeper in the engine. On another car, I've dealt with an intake valve that didn't seal but the engine didn't behave like this. My last thought is something could be wrong with the ignition system. I would think if an ignition component is going bad it works or it doesn't and thats it. I dont think the ignition system would cause the drops of fuel I've seen, either. I'm tempted to get a professionally rebuilt carb but again, I don't want to blindly spend money.

Thanks for any and all advice!
 
Sometimes reading the plugs can give you a handle on what is and is not happening internally.
 
I can give a couple of things to check.

1. Verify if it's dying from fuel or electrics. (does it still have spark when it quits?)
2. Make sure that pigtail off the distributor is staying connected. (squeeze the sockets to tighten them up.

You mentioned fuel dripping.
If you find wet plugs and still have a spark then it's obviously a carb issue (no matter what you have already done with it)

As already mentioned, pull a plug or two right after it dies and see if it's wet, dry, black or what.
I like to pull at least one plug on each side when there is a problem like this.

You can also temporarily run a wire straight from the battery + to the coil + and see if it keeps running. (It could be a weak spark problem causing it to quit)
Only jumper it as long as it takes to verify, as it will overheat the coil if left jumpered too long. (If the coil gets too hot to put your hand on it's too hot)
 
Fuel dripping visibly from the venturi's is typically a sign of a high fuel level in the carb bowl and flooding like you suspect. It may not be the only issue, but it needs to be rectified. Pull the spark plugs and if it is indeed flooding, they will be black and wet and smell strongly of gas.

Since the car sat, and is having this issue, then likely the needle & seat in the carb now have crud in them; they may have been clean at rebuild time, but if you did not pull and drain and clean the gas tank, then it likely has pulled more crud from the tank and that is causing the needle & seat to not close. The replaced fuel line and such all point to a dirty fuel system, and putting in fresh fuel probably did a nice job of stirring up rust and crud in the tank.

So you REALLY need to drop and clean and inspect that tank before anything else. Check to see if the fuel sender gasket into the tank needs renewing. SAVE and reuse the original tank sealing ring on the sender! Renew the rubber line from the tank to main fule line under th car and clean out that line. I bet you will be amazed at what you find in the tank; it may also contain separated alcohol that forms a gum with water in it. If it is too rusted, then perhaps it is time for a new tank; there are tank internal coatings that you can apply with varying success.

Then re-work the carb and get it cleaned out.
 
Thanks for all the tips. I was all set to go over the ignition system but I found something else.

I checked the number 1 spark plug. I put it back and started up the car. It ran for ten seconds and promptly died. I pulled the number 1 and 3 plugs. The outer rings are wet but the electrodes are dry. The number 1 plug looked exactly the same before I started it up. Could someone please decipher these for me?

http://s192.photobucket.com/user/psychrome86/media/dart/20151207_154227.jpg.html

I decided to pull the float needle and valve to check for dirt and debris. Sparkling clean.
http://s192.photobucket.com/user/psychrome86/media/dart/20151207_161732.jpg.html

I noticed something, though. When I pulled the fuel line off no fuel came spurting out. Any other car Ive pulled a fuel line off right after running was pressurized. I looked at the fuel filter and it was empty! Any other time I've looked at that filter it had fuel in it. I pulled the top of the carb off and the bowl was empty! The floats were touching the bottom of the bowl. I had put in two and a half gallons of gas only a couple days ago and I know it already had a few gallons in from when I first brought it home. I held my ear up to the filler and shook the car and could hear a lot of gas sloshing around. I doubt it could be low enough to not pick up any fuel though. It will start up and die even after I put gas in it. Unfortunately, the fuel gauge and temperature gauges don't work. :(

I went back to the filter and saw gas get into it, probably from the pump side draining back into it. I started turning it over again and watched the gas get sucked up little by little but no gas was flowing in from the tank. I let it turn for about 30 seconds and no gas came out at all.

This would seem to explain why it dies quickly and always within a certain time frame. If there is enough gas in there, though, I'm perplexed as to why fuel would get cut off like that before it even hits the fuel filter. Looks like it's time to drop the tank and blow out the lines.
 
BGDart said:
Thanks for all the tips. I was all set to go over the ignition system but I found something else.

I checked the number 1 spark plug. I put it back and started up the car. It ran for ten seconds and promptly died. I pulled the number 1 and 3 plugs. The outer rings are wet but the electrodes are dry. The number 1 plug looked exactly the same before I started it up. Could someone please decipher these for me?

http://s192.photobucket.com/user/psychrome86/media/dart/20151207_154227.jpg.html

I decided to pull the float needle and valve to check for dirt and debris. Sparkling clean.
http://s192.photobucket.com/user/psychrome86/media/dart/20151207_161732.jpg.html

I noticed something, though. When I pulled the fuel line off no fuel came spurting out. Any other car Ive pulled a fuel line off right after running was pressurized. I looked at the fuel filter and it was empty! Any other time I've looked at that filter it had fuel in it. I pulled the top of the carb off and the bowl was empty! The floats were touching the bottom of the bowl. I had put in two and a half gallons of gas only a couple days ago and I know it already had a few gallons in from when I first brought it home. I held my ear up to the filler and shook the car and could hear a lot of gas sloshing around. I doubt it could be low enough to not pick up any fuel though. It will start up and die even after I put gas in it. Unfortunately, the fuel gauge and temperature gauges don't work. :(

I went back to the filter and saw gas get into it, probably from the pump side draining back into it. I started turning it over again and watched the gas get sucked up little by little but no gas was flowing in from the tank. I let it turn for about 30 seconds and no gas came out at all.

This would seem to explain why it dies quickly and always within a certain time frame. If there is enough gas in there, though, I'm perplexed as to why fuel would get cut off like that before it even hits the fuel filter. Looks like it's time to drop the tank and blow out the lines.
Click to expand...

Totally sounds like something plugged up or even possibly a suction side air leak.
Check any rubber lines as you look at the tank area.
I have also seen pickup tubes corrode completely off of the sender/pickup unit. (not able to reach the fuel any longer)

One thing I like to do in cases like this is disconnect the fuel line before the pump and blow back through the line to listen for bubbling in the tank.
At first there should be some resistance for a breath or two blown into the line, then it should get easier and you should hear it bubbling in the tank.
This indicates that there is fuel within reach of the pickup in the tank.

Just an FYI, carbureted engines don't keep the fuel lines pressurized like FI engines.
AND air in a fuel filter doesn't necessarily mean anything definitive.
Blowing through the line and hearing bubbles or not does, so if you hear bubbles look at rubber sections for air leaks or fuel pump failure.
 
Actually carbed engines SHOULD typically keep pressure in the line from pump to to the carb for a considerable time after shutting off. The fuel pump has 2 check valves and the outlet valve check valve should close and keep pressure in the carb line for many minutes. Not pressure either means it is not getting fuel for some reason as suspected, or the pump's output check valve is shot, or the needle and seat in the carb is not sealing.

I would get a water bottle with a plastic lid, drill a small hole in the lid, and use this to put a couple of tablespoons of fresh gas into the carb's float bowl though the bowl vent. Disconnect the line from the pump and see if the engine will fire and runs for a few seconds on this fresh gas.

Then for sure proceed with the above checks of the line and drop/clean the tank; it has been sitting too long. Once done, then test the pump: it should pump somewhere around a pint to a quart of fuel into a can in 30 seconds of cranking. This is just one test and is not conclusive by itself. If the pump is indeed shot, then check the crankcase and dipstick for the smell of gas; sometimes the pump's diaphragm can rupture and dump gas into the oil. If this is the case, drain it and put in new oil and filter before running the car, so you don't damage any internals with the gas watering down the oil.

The plugs are rich, BTW; due the dry black deposits. But after no real running, it may not mean much. and they don't look wet on the electrodes like flooding. The wetness on the outside looks like it might be oil but from where is hard to say.
 
I've done this for a few seconds - disconnect from the fuel lines and run the engine with carb cleaner - tickle the throttle while spraying the cleaner into the carb, if you don't have a remote starter you'll need a buddy - if it runs, then obviously, it's the fuel system... although it sounds like you've decided that it is.. :D
 
You might set a can of gas by the right front wheel & connect it to the inlet side of the pump with several feet of 5/16 black neoprene fuel line & prime the carb & see if it straightens out (this takes the front/rear line/pickup/gas tank out of the picture "for now"). You might install a parts house Wix metal 5/16" fuel filter inbetween the pump and carb and recheck float level and take out the needle and twirl it inbetween your thumb and forefinger to smooth/seal and clean it & reinstall. If it is the carb I am thinking of (needle/seat goes in the front of the bowl) you install the needle/seat then set the float level cuz when the seat goes inward it lowers the float. Also take out the two idle mixture screws & with carb cleaner or brake kleen whatever can has the thin red straw & shoot a 3 second blast into each of those carb ports then replace the screws to the same orig position (count # of turns to lightly seated before removal to easily return em to that position). Keep us posted
 
Well I found my smoking gun. I pulled off the fuel filter and blew into the line and nothing was moving through it at all. I jacked up the car and got underneath the tank to check the lines and see how to remove it...




Looks like I have a case of "There's your problem!" A kinked hose, really? The whole time? I pulled off the hose and gas started coming out of the tank freely and smoothly since the rear of the car was up in the air. I cut off excess hose, clamped it back up, turned it over, watched the filter fill up and it started up! I ran it till it warmed up with no issues other than the carb needing adjustment and timing. What a relief! :cheers:

Thanks for all the help and advice people! Special thanks to TrailBeast and nm9stheham, your tips are what led me to finding the problem.

Now I can get to the next step which is getting a roof on it. All other mechanical will wait as that is the biggest issue to deal with. Plus a roof takes up a lot of space. :D
 
LOL glad it was that easy! Had a fuel line cracked in that spot that drove me crazy for over year.....

Now do yourself a favor and clean out the tank anyway..... it ain't at all hard. Use the line out to siphon it mostly out to keep it light. And save the old lock ting on the sender.
 
Good job!...ground that sending unit if your gas gauge isn't working correctly.
 
TrailBeast said:
Cool, and now you know how to quickly test a fuel supply. :D
Click to expand...

Yup, what a lesson though. Sheesh!

nm9stheham said:
LOL glad it was that easy! Had a fuel line cracked in that spot that drove me crazy for over year.....

Now do yourself a favor and clean out the tank anyway..... it ain't at all hard. Use the line out to siphon it mostly out to keep it light. And save the old lock ting on the sender.
Click to expand...

Roger that. Is the filler pipe removable or welded to the tank?
 
If it like our early A & B Mopars, the filler is srcewed to the bodywork and pokes into the tank through a big rubber grommet, so you pull the tank off of the filler tube as you lower the tank. But I don't know 100% that it is that way for all the A models....I bet someone will chime in who does know for your '71.
 
these old cars are 45- 50 odd years old, and many have sat for years, decades?? not running. that's terribly hard one any car. it takes $$ to replace all the things that we figure need replacing but there are some things pretty important if we are going to drive that car. brakes.... remember the steel lines are maybe ???? old. not to mention the rerst of the system at the wheels, the M C, etc..
the fuel system. rust in tank. leaky holes on top side? condition of the steel lines, yes they rust inside. first thing to do I s pull the tank, clean it, look for any thin spots/pin holes, the pickup???, rubber lines at tank?. fuel pump , carb.??
condition of carb??? lots there to consider.
the dist. yep there go to heck internally too. adv working? timings???
the front end..... safety!?????
 
barbee6043 said:
these old cars are 45- 50 odd years old, and many have sat for years, decades?? not running. that's terribly hard one any car. it takes $$ to replace all the things that we figure need replacing but there are some things pretty important if we are going to drive that car. brakes.... remember the steel lines are maybe ???? old. not to mention the rerst of the system at the wheels, the M C, etc..
the fuel system. rust in tank. leaky holes on top side? condition of the steel lines, yes they rust inside. first thing to do I s pull the tank, clean it, look for any thin spots/pin holes, the pickup???, rubber lines at tank?. fuel pump , carb.??
condition of carb??? lots there to consider.
the dist. yep there go to heck internally too. adv working? timings???
the front end..... safety!?????
Click to expand...


I couldn't agree more, brother. I learned the hard way with an old 77 Nova not to drive an old car till something broke. When this comes back from the body shop I plan on going through it systematically before I put any confidence in it. As it is right now, anything with fluid in it is leaking; brakes, power steering, engine, coolant, trans, axle. The suspension is shot and sagging, tires are ten years old, windows squeak, temp and fuel gauges don't work, AC... Yeah, its needs a little work. :D
 
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