Date code question

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cudamark

cudamark

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I know some couldn't care less about date codes and number matching but this is more a curiosity than anything else. When numbers were stamped into a block, transmission, fender tag, or anything else for that matter, when was it done? When the block was first starting the machining process or when the engine is complete and ready to install? Same with the fender tag....when the unibody is just starting on the line or when it's getting the final inspection? Anyone know for sure? One reason I'm asking is: Can an engine build date be one day after a fender tag build date? Maybe the engine was built late one day and installed in a car early the next day or are all the engine build dates the same day as it's car or maybe many days before the car build date?
 
As near as I can recall, the engine stampings happen at engine assembly, at the time the engine is actually being assembled. There is info related to the actual assembly process sometimes included in the pad stamping that indicate certain facts, such as undersized turnings and bearings that would not be known until the assembly process is underway. However, the assembly date of the motor can be days before the build date of the car, as there needs to be many assemblies to fill the line with sales bank cars, fleet orders and such. I believe the actual VIN is stamped on the motor when it is mated to the chassis, either from the build sheet or IBM card to correlate the motor to the car it is destined for. As a body came down the line, it was imperative that the chassis be assembled and ready to continue, therefore the motor would already be stamped before it is mounted.

As for the fender tag, it has always been my knowledge that the fender tag is painted with the body, and that the purpose of the fender tag is to call out the "punch list", or what holes need to be punched and what fixtures need to be present for that car. Since it also calls out the paint and trim codes, which is mostly for paint, it was hung by a wire on the car early on the line and attached to the fender at paint.

So, to try to answer your question, could the motor be built one day after the car was assembled?? Of course, if only by way of waiting for a certain part to arrive, or if something held up the motor or chassis for some reason. Damage to bodies happened all the time, and repaints were frequent, so who knows what happened to either assembly. Parts shortages could also suspend a build depending on what the shortage was, so it's entirely possible that the motor could be assembled one day after the build date of the body!!

Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it!!Geof
 
if only one human being out there , had had, the presence of mind , and the authority, to film the entire production process of one 1969 dart or 1970 duster. there is a production sequence of 1975 cordobas , but there is no information or explanation of the actual process or what steps actually occurred. nothing fascinates me more than the process of how these cars were put together coming down the assembly line, and how everything came together...i have about 15 more pics which can be seen at allpar....i wish i knew more about it myself...
 

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The date on the fender tag / broadcast sheet is the Scheduled Production Date (SPD).

The car may, or may not have been built on schedule.

On one of my cars, the final engine assembly date on the original engine was five days after the cars SPD, so I know it was built 'late'.
 
Let's think this over a bit. What's the first date on a portion of a car? What number is the only number that is cast into a portion of the car? Would it not be "cast" on the side of the engine block? Most times wont the block date be the earliest date on the car? Would a 70 model car have a 71 dated motor? A 70 model car could have a 69 cast date on the block and many do. All other numbers are stamped. That engine date was built into the block when the block was cast. It is the raised numeral so it was done during the casting of the engine block.
Small Block
 
Ahh yes Smallblock, but the casting date has little to do with the destination of the motor and only gives what information it can..ie, the casting date of the block!!

As a matter of reference, I recently had a 383 motor that had a casting date of 1969, but was stamped and assembled for a 1971 car, according to the date letter stamp on the pad!! Go figure!! Geof
 
Any special paint such as color or painted hood treatments done after paint , custom colors or corrections would change body destination on the line. When coming into the spray booth you look at the paint code on the body. You grab the hose off the wall that has that code marked by the paint mixer. His Job to mark the hoses 10 per side. The line does not stop for anything.

I was a finish painter on a assembly line. I was painting my side white and Louanne was painting her side red . When I came to the front it was to late. The body after the oven was removed from the line and taken to what they call the change over department where all custom paint was done and repairs. This sometimes held up the Body for days and it would be finished assembled in that department

In this case the body was not used and another body was pulled and would meet up with the drive line and interior much later in the week. Not all bodies were perfect . Quality inspectors would designate the poor quality bodies to low line none special orders. Sometimes some of the flaws would not be seen until during paint or even assembly because of alignment issues. So never go by numbers on any vehicle. If a special order had a issue and it needed to go out. They would grab the next shell that they could use no matter what number was on it. And that bad body would be used on another in the future. Just cover the numbers up.

Oh yeah it was suppose to be white so we couldn't cover the red. We tried but ended up with pink bleed and sags. I saw things that totally changes some of the expert interpretation of production numbers and build dates in the past. So when I here guys talking numbers as if they are the rules from god. These people never had the life on the assembly line. Numbers a lot of time were not a priority. there would always be issues that changed the production order.
 
I had a Duster with an engine built after the SPD. The SPD was just that, scheduled. Not an absolute.
 
Don't know if this would apply, but I had a 1987 2.2 that I was told was a quality control test motor, I was told that they randomly pulled an engine off the line and tested it. This engine had nothing stamped on the pad for vin number.
 
coffeedart67 said:
Don't know if this would apply, but I had a 1987 2.2 that I was told was a quality control test motor, I was told that they randomly pulled an engine off the line and tested it. This engine had nothing stamped on the pad for vin number.
Click to expand...

Could that have been a warranty replacement?
 
Oldmanmopar said:
Any special paint such as color or painted hood treatments done after paint , custom colors or corrections would change body destination on the line. When coming into the spray booth you look at the paint code on the body. You grab the hose off the wall that has that code marked by the paint mixer. His Job to mark the hoses 10 per side. The line does not stop for anything.

I was a finish painter on a assembly line. I was painting my side white and Louanne was painting her side red . When I came to the front it was to late. The body after the oven was removed from the line and taken to what they call the change over department where all custom paint was done and repairs. This sometimes held up the Body for days and it would be finished assembled in that department

In this case the body was not used and another body was pulled and would meet up with the drive line and interior much later in the week. Not all bodies were perfect . Quality inspectors would designate the poor quality bodies to low line none special orders. Sometimes some of the flaws would not be seen until during paint or even assembly because of alignment issues. So never go by numbers on any vehicle. If a special order had a issue and it needed to go out. They would grab the next shell that they could use no matter what number was on it. And that bad body would be used on another in the future. Just cover the numbers up.

Oh yeah it was suppose to be white so we couldn't cover the red. We tried but ended up with pink bleed and sags. I saw things that totally changes some of the expert interpretation of production numbers and build dates in the past. So when I here guys talking numbers as if they are the rules from god. These people never had the life on the assembly line. Numbers a lot of time were not a priority. there would always be issues that changed the production order.
Click to expand...
That's what I figured. I'll believe your real life experiences on the line over the self proclaimed "numbers" experts anyday. Thanks.
 
Near as I can reason out from all your input is, the date castings and stampings were done at various times during the build process. The casting marks first, engine build date second, over/under bearings,bore,etc third, and VIN last....right before it's mated with a trans and chassis. I've seen blocks with the VIN stamped through the paint and others with the paint applied over the stampings but at this point it's hard to tell if the blocks have original paint or not. It would be nice to hear from someone who worked on the line and knows for sure. If a car was pulled from the line before completion, what was the maximum time frame before it returned to be finished? 3 days? a week? more? What about some of the dated components of the engine....like the carb, alternator, starter, manifolds, etc.....could they have stampings after the engine build date? Say the block was started on and stamped, then there was a shortage of some component and had to wait to be completed. Seems to me that it could happen, even if only for a few days until production caught up.
 
I parted out a 1965 Formula S Cuda with a 273 HP. The body was assembled in September of 1964 but the engine block was casted February of 64. It even has a factory Power Pack tag attatched to the engine block! Very rare.
 
Yup, I've seen lots of casting dates that were way before the car build date but was more curious about ones AFTER the car build date. On a related note, I have a '65 273 block with a casting date after a '66 273 block casting date! There must not have been a strict order or sequence in which the blocks were picked out for assembly.
 
This is the power pack tags that was attached to the block. This should mean that this 273 commando engine was built way before the release of the power pack option for 1965 production. I think they announced it around Sept 20, 1964. Could this be a pre-production engine?

I think most of all the numbers that we are running after is just a date when the product was casted. Not when it was assembled and that is a big difference.

There are some parts that has date codes that make sence, the signal horns, the brake booster, the carburator, the distributor, spark plug wires etc. The date codes were stamped when the part was assembled. The date code on the spark plug wires has the same quarter for three month and then it was changed to next quarter. Simple as that.
 

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Interesting....I've never seen one from the factory.....but I've seen rebuilders use a similar tag. Is it riveted to the block? What exactly does it say? Is there a Mopar logo of any sort?
 
OK Mark, Can I dust off this thread and ask a question along similar lines? I have two automatic Big Block cars, both are built in the September and August 68 timeframe respectively going forward. The September car has a 727 casing that has the VIN pad and is correctly serialized, with the matchin early full serial number. The numbers stamped on the PAN rail are as follows: 2892091L 2602 8166 My understanding of these numbers is limited but if the little white book from GTS is correct it would have been noted as 69 727 for an A or B body HP with H51 (or air Condiitioning option). So, to make a long description long....the car is matching numbers, have build sheet, no air conditioning on this car, not on build sheet, not plumbed for it. The 2602 is the date (I think) and it is right in line with the production dates. I don't know what the last four digits represent....

So, Here is where I am confused, on the other 1969 big block car, the transmission casing does not have the VIN pad and is not serialized so go to the PAN stampings and hope that the 10,00o calendar date matches up.....well here are the digits on that stamping.....J2801543 4061565......not the typical pattern I have ever seen. This is taken out of a 1969 convertible, all numbers matching with build sheet. So, the first is the part number which is a 1967 727 the next 7 mean what? if first four is the date that would be September 9th 1972 on a 1967 transmission? Talk about stampings that are really not in line at all? Is this a dealer installed replacement unit that might have been a 6 year old part on a shelf? Am I misinterpreting the parts?

Why would the stampings on two transmissions be so different.

I am sure that these numbers varied in many ways, my interest is to get to hopefully determine if this convertible big block transmission was a replacement, or what????
 
2602 = Sept 11 1968

From the info I have, 2801543 would not have come in an A body BB car, it's a 2 barrel carb transmission. Also shows for a 67-68 model year car. I'll guess it's missing a 2 in front of the 406 which would make a build date of 2/28/68. It doesn't have a VIN, how can it be an "all numbers matching" deal?
 
Appreciate the feedback!!


The GTS (Galen's Tag Service) white book shows that the 2801543 part number was also used on a ABC 383 4bbl transmission in 1967 and had a note on the margin as +police. This trans has a 67 stamped near one of the coolent line fittings. Being that the car had a very early build date there are many instances that a left over transmission casing without a VIN pad could have been used to build the transmission.

No telling what the heck came or did not come with these cars. But you are right, the transmission is a weak link in the formula for this all numbers matching BB convertible but I will still work to put this car back together regardless if the trans may not be correct......Trans has been in the is car since the 1970's. Being there is a missing number in the stampings does not help. I have read that many early 1969 transmissions came un serialized as well as with older casings without the VIN pad. Probably using up older inventory.


Being that my serialzed trans from my BB fastback is spec'd wrong for the car it seems that the matching numbers and part numbers was not an exact science coming out of the factory......
 
I think the 2801543 was swapped into the car and not the original. The numbers indicate it is a '67 383 2 or 4bbl application as well as a '68 2bbl one. Those years it would have had a single wire neutral safety whereas the '69 would have the 3 wire. That can be changed by swapping out some internals but it might be another way to tell if yours is a replacement if yours still has the single wire switch in it. As for VIN stampings in the case, it should have them in '69, but I've seen replacement cases that didn't and others that had been milled off and/or restamped so look at them closely. I guess it's possible that the factory could have used a case that was 2 years older than the car but I seriously doubt it.....2 months maybe, but not 2 years.
 
well, will keep you posted. I got the car about halfway home....flying out this week to pick it up and finish the long drive. I negotiated the price way down once I found that the trans was suspect.....still a great project! Guess what, I got a set of 69 doors in the package along with a bunch of crap I dont need.....so, I should be good to go on body parts to finish up the fast back. Then I dig into this one......soon as I get this car home I will check out the trans details and maybe stop by and bore you with some pictures and details.... I will tell you that that thing did not look like it was ever out of the car....it was so crudded up, all the linkages looked like they had never been mucked with.......oh well.......just another fish story.
 
I've got my '69 up for sale right now so swing by and make an offer!
 
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