Diff ratio help

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Looks like everybody forgot the OPs desire for fuel economy.
Premium fuel here costs about $2.40 per litre; to put that into perspective, that is $9.08 per US gallon.
He also has a pretty good low gear, 2.92 not 2.2.
 
2.92 first gear, 0.8 5th gear, 0.63 6th gear. Rear tyres are 26 inches, haven't got dyno results yet and I don't want stupidly low revs on the highway - about 2000 - 2100 at 65mph is about it. With 650 horses, 5th gear is a power gear at 65mph if I want to overtake, but I love 4th for doing it in a quarter of the time. Sixrh gear is just a waste of a gear, unless you want to save on gas travelling freeways. I'm happy to use the gears, it's why I got it, so good cruising RPM at 65mph is what I'd like. Sounds like 3.7 to 3.9 would be much better suited to my needs? 3.9 more so?
You posted 315 40 18 size for the rear tires. Those are almost 29" tall. A 3.9 rear gear ratio will be a 2.45 final gear in OD. I don't think I'd do anything numerically lower than a 4.30.
 
Looks like everybody forgot the OPs desire for fuel economy.
Premium fuel here costs about $2.40 per litre; to put that into perspective, that is $9.08 per US gallon.
He also has a pretty good low gear, 2.92 not 2.2.
Nobody's forgotten anything, genius. Let's say he went with a 3.08 gear like you endorsed. That means he'll have a 1.94 final ratio in OD. He'll be lugging the hell out of that thing and it won't get optimal mileage.
 
Looks like everybody forgot the OPs desire for fuel economy.
Premium fuel here costs about $2.40 per litre; to put that into perspective, that is $9.08 per US gallon.
He also has a pretty good low gear, 2.92 not 2.2.
yeah because nothing screams economy like a 650hp G3
 
I'd hit a gear calculator, and shoot for 1800-2000 rpm at 75 mph in sixth double o.d.
I'd probably end up with either a 3.91 or 4.11.
 
yeah because nothing screams economy like a 650hp G3
I only need sixth gear for long haul freeway driving to save fuel, and drone of too high revs for hours on end - I.e., a trip from Canberra to Brisbane return, which I do every couple of months in one day, is about 1200 klms (720 miles) and 13 hours each way. The old car I had was LSA, about 480hp, 20 inch tyres, tr6060 six speed manual and had 3.70 diff, which was factory. Good economy long haul, good power throughout rev range. I thought with more power I'd go lower diff number, but advice here is go higher? People now have me thinking 3.9 or 4.11. Engine EFI is managed by Dominator X Max, if that helps. At shows, all I wantbto do is park it and drink beer, not cruise and burn tyres. I'll save that for elsewhere. But for me, this car will be a daily driver. I live 35 miles out of nearest city on a major highway, so not much city driving to worry about, and even then I don't care about fuel. It's only really the highway driving and long trips that I care about as that is 75% of my driving time.
 
ah, i get it. so basically, you just want to build a freeway flyer that hauls balls and clips 1800 rpm so it doesn't feel like it's revving it's tits off, and gets "reasonable" mileage.

reasonable in quotes in terms of acceptable for a 650hp motor.

so not knowing what speeds you travel at, i can't give you more than a guess based on the tire size and OD and say that i wouldn't run anything less than a 3.70 gear. but having some experience with the 5.7 G3 in my ram, i can tell you it was most happy in the 1800~2000 range; which sat me between 65~75mph, and anything over that mileage decreased rapidly, anything under that i had to get on the pedal to make the power available.

i understand that's not an apples to apples comparison, but it might give you at least sort of a starting point. the benefit here is that you've got gobs of power so you're not going to be wanting in that department no matter what gear ratio you pick.

here's a link to a gearing calculator that may be of some assistance:

 
ah, i get it. so basically, you just want to build a freeway flyer that hauls balls and clips 1800 rpm so it doesn't feel like it's revving it's tits off, and gets "reasonable" mileage.

reasonable in quotes in terms of acceptable for a 650hp motor.

so not knowing what speeds you travel at, i can't give you more than a guess based on the tire size and OD and say that i wouldn't run anything less than a 3.70 gear. but having some experience with the 5.7 G3 in my ram, i can tell you it was most happy in the 1800~2000 range; which sat me between 65~75mph, and anything over that mileage decreased rapidly, anything under that i had to get on the pedal to make the power available.

i understand that's not an apples to apples comparison, but it might give you at least sort of a starting point. the benefit here is that you've got gobs of power so you're not going to be wanting in that department no matter what gear ratio you pick.

here's a link to a gearing calculator that may be of some assistance:

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Yes, you got it! Freeway flyer might be more like freeway cruiser, but yeah, 'reasonable' mileage is the aim for longer drives. Cruising speed in Australia is usually 60 miles an hour (posted limit) on highways, and 66mph on freeways (with people usually going 70mph without concern from most coppers). So 2000 to no more than 2200 hundred in sixth at 65mph is probably ideal. Rhat would see me happy for about 1000 of the 1200 kilometre three-monthly trip, while I don't mind getting 3mpg overtaking idiots for the remaing 200 kilometres.
Fuel economy is relative - mainly to the mood I'm in and the wife being absent or present. But I want some economy when I want it and I have a lot more gears in my hand if I need power. So, the more reasonable and experienced advice I get it based on understand what I want, it sounds more and more like a 3.9 diff ratio is rhe way to go - probably best compromise all-round, it seems.
 
Have we confirmed tire height?

I only ask, because I have seen some numbers but also saw a “20 inch tyes” reference a few posts back. If we really are nailing this down, I feel that this number is important.

Are we going with 315/40/18s? 27.91” tall? Goal is 2200 rpm at 65 mph?

Just the facts ma’am…
 
Have we confirmed tire height?

I only ask, because I have seen some numbers but also saw a “20 inch tyes” reference a few posts back. If we really are nailing this down, I feel that this number is important.

Are we going with 315/40/18s? 27.91” tall? Goal is 2200 rpm at 65 mph?

Just the facts ma’am…
Depending on fitments, I will be going with 18 x 40 or 17 x 45. Original wheel/tyre combo was 14 x 75 x 165, so will be trying to match that total circumference as closely as I can to maintain speedo accuracy. All those sizes are very close in measurement of circumference, so any size I use should require very similar diff as one complete turn of the rear wheel is within less than 1/2 inch of any of the tyre options.
 
speedo accuracy is only a matter of changing the speedo drive gear in the transmission. why would you confine yourself to tire sizes with something as trivial as that?
 
2000 to 2200 in sixth at 65 mph sounds like 4.56s! I would NOT go that steep!
I would put in 3.91s or 4.10s, leaning toward the 4.10 for what you want.
 
I don't know exactly what ratio diff to get for good, all-round general driving and economy for my A body Australian Charger. I have 650hp Gen 3 hemi with close ratio six speed Tremec Magnum, 18 x 40 x 315 tyres - no drag racing, driver mostly, fair bit of highway. I'm thinking something like 3.08. Thoughts?
A bit depends on the trans 1st and OD ratios. A close ratio probably has something like a 2.5 1st gear. And then the OD 6th gear is between .7 and .5. With that in mind, the 3.08 is a bit tall. With street driving in mind, my first choice would be a 3.55 gear with second choice of 3.73. This depends on the trans ratios. For good street driving, I find that the first gear ratio × the final drive ratio should come out to about 10:1. You also find about 1700RPM at 110KPH gives good mileage, a definate concern these days.
Balance the trans ratios and pick the final drive to fit into these basic guide numbers.
 
2.92 first gear, 0.8 5th gear, 0.63 6th gear. Rear tyres are 26 inches, haven't got dyno results yet and I don't want stupidly low revs on the highway - about 2000 - 2100 at 65mph is about it. With 650 horses, 5th gear is a power gear at 65mph if I want to overtake, but I love 4th for doing it in a quarter of the time. Sixrh gear is just a waste of a gear, unless you want to save on gas travelling freeways. I'm happy to use the gears, it's why I got it, so good cruising RPM at 65mph is what I'd like. Sounds like 3.7 to 3.9 would be much better suited to my needs? 3.9 more so?
10:1 ÷ 2.92 = 3.42. Mopar has 3.55 ring and pinions.
2.92 × 3.73 = 10.89:1 With that power/torque and this reduction it will be real easy to burn the hides.
2.92 × 3.91 = 11.42:1. First is almost useless.
 
Hang on fellas;
As to fuel Economy;
1) If that engine has a factory computer controlled EFI/Timing, then run whatever rear end ratio that computer was tuned for.
2) If that engine has a stand-alone EFI/Timing computer, well yur in for a treat tuning that for 3.07s.
3a) If that engine has a carb, AND mechanical distributor, and has long-tube headers; I foresee lotsa problems.
3b) To get as much power as you say your engine has, IDK the cam size/Dynamic compression ratio/ nor the cylinder pressure, cuz I don't run in those circles......
But I can tell you this, from my fairly extensive modest-cam experience;

So from here to the end of my post, this is all from my experience, and I get that nunuvit may apply to your application. It's OK, I'm retired, so how much typing I do, is not up to Rusty.

For a modicum of hiway fuel economy,

1) as to Power stroke; the cam should have more than about 104*. This is already too low for my liking. It doesn't get much better until 110* . And, honestly, 114* is where I'd like to be.
2) As to overlap; by the time it gets to ~60*, the headers, at low-rpm, are pulling fuel charge right across the top of the piston and out the back door it goes. By 76*, you better have the timing figured out, or you'll be leaving a trail of stink in your wake.
3) As to cylinder Pressure, the more the better, until you get into detonation.
4) As to intake and Exhaust durations, you get whatever is left over. If the engine doesn't make enough power on the leftovers, get a bigger engine, or supercharge it.
As an example;
say you had a cam with 108* Powerstroke, 120* compression; that totals 228* . The total available is 720 plus say 76* overlap=796. So then, that leaves 568* for Intake plus exhaust; so say 284/284, or 280/288. On a fast rate of lift FTH cam that might be 240/240@050. That's getting to be pretty big for a Manual trans car.
5) What I figured out for my COMBO (see Avatar) was to run the hiway rpm at just above the rpm that generated the highest no-load vacuum, at the highest possible ignition timing.
This is the lowest rpm that the engine first becomes fuel efficient.
Any lower, and
a) some of the fuel-charge is going right out the exhaust, b) or the Short Power-Stroke is blowing wasted energy right out the tailpipes. Once the engine is built, you cannot do much about the PowerStroke except degree the cam to maximize that.
Any more than this, and
a) the rpm is multiplying all the shortcomings of the combo. and
b) yur just wearing out your engine for no good reason.

6) to that end, I developed an easy test.
I mean it's so simple.
Install a vacuum gauge and SLOWLY, rev the engine up, until the vacuum plateaus, then, increase/decrease the timing until the engine looses rpm, then reduce the rpm say 500 and again slowly bring the Rs up, until the rpm again plateaus, and again adjust the timing for highest rpm.
Record the Timing and Rpm.

My engine has had three different cams, and on each camchange, I changed the compression ratio, to arrive at or near the previous pressure. So, when I did this, the vacuum plateaued;
....~2400 with the 292/292/108 cam,
to ~2000 with the 276/286/110 cam,
to ~1800 with the 270/276/110 cam.

In each case, I initially geared the car to those minimum rpms, using a combination of rear gears and transmission gears.
Some combinations had 8 useable progressive gears, some had 7, and I now have 5, cuz that's all my 367 needs. Eight or even Seven was just too much.

Now, That method above, establishes the ideal rpms.
Sometimes, I imagine, the minimum rpm might be rather high. Say your minimum turns out to be 2600, but you want to cruise at 1800. The logic argument is that as the rpm goes down, fuel economy goes up, and that is true for a small-cammed engine , like a factory 318, that vacuum plateaus just off idle, lol.
But say you have established that yours Plateaus at 2600. That is where it will get best fuel economy, jus saying. If you cruise at a lower rpm but same speed, that engine will lose fuel efficiency, but gain economy from the lower rpm.
I proved this once by gearing my 270-cammed combo down to 65=1600rpm in double-over, which came to either 2040 or 2240 in one of the other two selectable First-overs, (Gear Vender, or A833 over) on an 1800rpm plateau . Thus, cruising at either 1600 or at 2040, economy was about the same cuz neither was at the 1800 ideal. But cruising at 75=1800 was, and again, the increased speed cost me what engine efficiency gained.
So that was Problem #1, hiway rpm

Now, about problem #2; how slow do you want to go?

1) Do you need to drive slowly? If so, what is the lowest rpm that your engine can comfortably idle at? You use those numbers together with the tire height, and your minimum roadspeed to calculate your starter gear.
Your tires are about 28 tall.
You may want to parade at 4 mph.
Say your engine idles at 950rpm
Say your trans has a low gear of 2.87.
Doing the Calculation, spits out a Rear gear of 6.89.
That's a Problem;
this car will NEVER parade with people walking.
Lets say you did install those 3.08s. Your minimum roadspeed would be ~9mph, so I mean, that's even fast when pulling thru a drivethru. Yur gonna be toeing the clutch a lot. And your Hi-Perf clutch is gonna have to deal with that.
But say you get the Idle-rpm down to 780;
and run 4.88s;
Now you can drive at a minimum roadspeed of 4.64mph.
But say you got the Wide-ratio trans with a 3.27 low, and still with the 4.88s, Now you can Idle down the road at 4.1mph, still too fast for parading, but acceptable to idle around at carshows.
Lets work the Formula in reverse; with the 2.87 low, and 4.30s what would the Idle-speed need to be, to drive at 3.5mph?
Answer 518rpm. It'd never gonna happen is it......
And with the 3.27 low?
Answer, 590rpm. Still not realistic for an engine of your caliber. If this matters to you, then you kindof need a 2-speed rear-end like a Quickchange.
Ok so that solves those two problems

Problem #3 is this.
In my experience as a streeter; 65 mph is all I wanted to hit, and the only way to get there quick, was in Second gear. If I got into 3rd, the car lost ET. If I tried to get there in First, the rpm went outta sight. So second it was. So I geared it to to just run out of pulling power at 65. Of course that required a different Pumpkin for each cam.
My favorite cam was the little 270* cam, which made up to 195 psi cylinder pressure, so she was no slouch in those first two gears. The PowerPeak was around 5200, but with the Edelbrock heads, she kept pulling a looooog way beyond that. So I installed 4.30s, which got me 6000= 62mph.
Of all the combos that car went thru, this was my favorite.
If you run the close ratio trans, I think Second is 1.89 to my 1.92, so you'll want a similar rear gear, namely the 4.30s. Which will idle at 5.28 mph@780 rpm, in 2.87 low gear..
So again, you need a two-speed rear gear, to solve all three problems so far. Or, an automatic transmission.

(And that's why I pulled the 292 cam outta my Combo. They told me that cam was too big for street, but nobody could tell me why, definitively. I tried ALL SUMMER to make that cam work, cuz at 7000 that thing was still a beast! I pulled it out...... cuz NO-WAY was I gonna put an automatic on that engine. )

There's no sense in me suggesting what rear gear to run, cuz I don't know what's most important to you; and In your case NO RATIO is gonna cover all driving conditions.
About the closest you might get is;
1) at the bottom; the Idle-Speed will be too high for walking speed, no matter what the rear gear is. With 4.30s the minimum Roadspeed is about 5.27@780rpm.(2.87 low)
2) on the street with 4.30s and 28" tires, in 1.89 Second Gear; 65=6330.
3) to cruise at 65=2200, requires a Final-Drive Ratio of 2.82. With 4.30s, that would require an overdrive of .66

Nice car!
The factory ECU can be programmed with the diff ratio and tire sizes, and it will compensate some. With that power and EFI, a custom tune is pretty much guaranteed.
 
Wow ! Only 65 mph down under ? Guess I watched Mad Maxx too many times …lol

Hell with 650 hp just skip the tremic and run an 833 with 2.97 rear gears . The savings will buy 10 years worth of Little Creatures .
 
Exactly. He has a 650 hp engine, not 250 hp. And a light car, about 3100 lb.
 
Looks like everybody forgot the OPs desire for fuel economy.
Premium fuel here costs about $2.40 per litre; to put that into perspective, that is $9.08 per US gallon.
He also has a pretty good low gear, 2.92 not 2.2.
Remember this next time we start whining about the price of gas in the US.
 
ENGINE DETAILS - TO GO WITH TREMEC MAGNUM - TYRES
BBP 448 CRATE ENGINE
Block Prep:
Casting inspection
Sonic Check cylinder walls
Deburr interior surfaces
Chamfer and Radius edges
Deck Head Surface
Cylinder Bore and Hone with Plates
Line Bore and Hone with Plates
Shot Peen Main Caps
Total Block Cleansing
Short Block Assembly:
Mopar Block
Molnar Technologies 4340 Forged Crankshaft
Molnar Technologies Forged H-Beam Rods
Diamond Racing 2618 Pistons
ARP Main Studs
ARP Head Studs
Clevite H-Series Bearings
Head Assembly:
Mopar Apache 6.4L Head Castings
Stainless Steel Valves
Conical Beehive Valve Spring .650" lift
Hardened Locators and Retainers w/ Shims
Viton Valve Seals
Multi Point Cut Valve Job
Camshaft Kit and Timing:
Custom Grind VVT Camshaft
Phaser Lockout
Chromoly Pushrods
Non_MDS HD Lifter Set
Mopar Rockers
Mopar Timing Set
Melling Oil Pump
Specifications:
Cubic Inches: 448
Liters: 7.2
Bore Size: 4.095"
Rod Length: 6.125"
Stroke: 4.250"
CVF Black Billet Front Accessory Drive
Holley Terminator Max GEN 3 Hemi PCM and Wiring
 
Most motors making 650 that I know of aren’t meant to run in low rpm ranges.

If the goal is low revs, highway cruising why not save all the hassle and out in more ‘simple’ combination. Even a mopar crate 392 or something, you can have EFI, power (what do they make these days 465 - 485? Can’t remember right now) and a five speed transmission so you don’t have to cut the hell out of the tunnel?
 
Most motors making 650 that I know of aren’t meant to run in low rpm ranges.

If the goal is low revs, highway cruising why not save all the hassle and out in more ‘simple’ combination. Even a mopar crate 392 or something, you can have EFI, power (what do they make these days 465 - 485? Can’t remember right now) and a five speed transmission so you don’t have to cut the hell out of the tunnel?
Basically, because I'm building the car the way I want to build it, and for it to fit in with my life, where I live, and the practicality of where/when/how I will be driving - and not to fit in with what other people want for their cars. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone else but me. It may be the only car I ever build, so I dont care about trivial things like trans tunnels, wheel tubs, etc. There's more mods than that going on, believe me! The only original component of the car when Im finished will be 90% of the body panels. The rest, inside, under and all around, will be new or altered. What I want is a motor that will rip the tires off in several of the early gears, plenty of available power when shifting down to 4th gear to overtake multiple cars (4-8 cars) on single lane highways in a few seconds, and a top gear that will then allow for a good cruising speed at lower revs to save on fuel for longer trips (and from my lead foot when overtaking). So I've got the engine and power, I've got the gearbox to cope with the power and provides the double-overdrive I prefer for longer distance fuel economy (5th can be used as the primary overdrive for turning/twisting roads, while 6th is good for freeways/double lane highways). So, the right diff ratio will be important to achieve all of that - KNOWING - that anything I do will be a compromise due to the engine power - which normally isn't used as a daily driver, or is primarily a city-based vehicle and therefore making a true overdrive gear irrelevant to them. From all input I have received, no particular ratio will suit perfectly for any scenario, so a compromise situation looks best around the 3.9 to 4.11 ratios to achieve closest to what I want, depending on the final tyre and wheel choice I make. Thanks to everyone's help, I now know the contributing factors in evaluating the best diff ratio for me (and a 3.08 was waaaayyyy out!) and what I want, and where I will need to make the necessary compromises to satisfy me (probably highway revs, but not too much), while leaving plenty of usable power for, occasionally, being a little bit silly and having a bit of fun.
 
I have 3.0 gears on my 426 barracuda (8.8 ford diff, 500hp) and runs nice off the line and in the highway at 130-140kph speeds with the stock 4 speed manual. I do not race it in quarter mile dough, its a daily driver. Its below 3000 rpm at 140kph so that is good for me. I have 275/40?/17 rear tires.

I would recommend for your case to enter the transmission gear ratios you have, define what rpms you would like in the highest gear at yoyr highway cosntant cruising speed and play with the ratios availablw for your diff and see what you like best.

Take care,
 
I'm sorry 650 hp. and your worried about fuel economy. I would start with 3.91 gears then if you're not happy go into the 410s and so forth but, I do feel 456s is too much. Thats just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions, their like assholes everybody's got one and they all stink. LOL Good luck my friend and follow your own opinion after reading all these very helpful posts.
 
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