different 318 question

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Mikes270dart

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The 318 in my 1974 has a stock long block with an LD340 intake and a carb from a 70 dart 4 spd. (don't know the CFM) and dual exhaust. With the original 2.45 gears it seemed to run fine, very low RPM. Car now has 3.55 seems to run out of steam after 3500rpm. The question, was the motor built as a really low RPM motor by Dodge? Will changing the cam make the difference? Read somewhere here that a K20-417-3 from comp cams was a good cam for stock motor. Thanks
 
318 is just an overbored 273. The top end was designed with a 273 in mind. 318 is closer to 340 size than 273. Breathing at high rpms isn't its strong suit. The heads are the cork for power on 318 but saying that they are good for about 300 hp unmodified.

Theres a build with a dead stock long block 4bbl headers and xe262h cam and makes 282 hp @ 5000 rpm. Thats probably the biggest cam you want to go with stock cr.

Your cam choice would probably be a better street and make close to the same hp. Even 256 ish cam is a step up from stock.
 
I think your problem was always there but the high gear hid it , I have turned a stock 78/318 with a ld4b650 holly and wore out 340 springs 7000rpm ,was way out of the power range for a stock cam but it would go there with a good ign system and proper tune up with a 4 speed ,look at fuel flow, ign timing dist ect.
 
Your cam is likely running out before the bigger carb, intake, and exhaust. Not uncommon to see this happen when someone just changes the 'in' and 'out' parts. I think I would go for a 256 or 262 cam max like 273 mentions. Getting lift up will be quite a help and all the cams mentioned will get the breathing up and not require you to mod the retainers. Get a good set of springs, get the exhaust rotators out, and add of decent timing chain; the old one is stretched by now.

Have you checked the compression on the cylinders? Any smoking from the exhaust on hard acceleration? If so, then the rings/rings lands are probably worn and that will cause the top end to drop off.
 
No smoke. we are finally out of the deep freeze up here will be able to check the comp.
 
I think your problem was always there but the high gear hid it , I have turned a stock 78/318 with a ld4b650 holly and wore out 340 springs 7000rpm ,was way out of the power range for a stock cam but it would go there with a good ign system and proper tune up with a 4 speed ,look at fuel flow, ign timing dist ect.
I like your style; If it goes there once,just keep pouring the coal to it! Been doing myself since 1999.
 
I agree with the 262 comment above
your valve springs my be tired
the 256 cam mentioned above closes the intake about 55 AFTER BOTTOM DEAD CENTER ABDC
the Dual energy has a long exhaust (where does this help?) and 59 ABDC less dynamic compression for a low compression motor
but why look at multipurposed chevy cams
I posted this in another thread 440 rebuild
The Voodoo closes the intake at the same place as the 256 comp but has shorter intake duration and more lift than either comp mentioned, more even than comp 268H
you have to go to the comp XE 262 to get that much lift but it is a much bigger cam
Not pushing Lunati but here it makes sense or the Hughes there may be price differences- let us know
 
Is this the Voodoo cam that you are talking about?
Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam.
  • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 298/308
  • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 232/242
  • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .462/.473
  • LSA/ICL: 112
  • Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
  • RPM Range: 2500-6500
  • Includes: Cam & Lifters (#71977PR-16)



Part Number: 10201002LK
Previous Part Number: 10402LK
 
make sure you use the matching valve springs that go with the new cam you use
 
Another issue going on..... a stock 318 cam will easily go 5000 rpm's. It's where I've shifted many 318 4bbl's with dual exhaust.
 
My stock lower end LA318 pulls fine all the way to 5k. Before you put a cam in I would figure out what is happening. I would guess it is timing... Advance is maybe not working correctly.
 
OP queries
is this the Voodoo cam that you are talking about?
Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam.
  • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 298/308----reality check time
not even close we're looking at a low compression 318 here
from above "I think I would go for a 256 or 262 cam max like 273 mentions. Getting lift up will be quite a help and all the cams mentioned will get the breathing up"
VD 454/454 253/256 208/213 112 10230700 54.5 [email protected] sae as 256comp
the next Voodoo is
VD 454/475 258/265 112 10230701
then the 262 dbl check with Lunati but IMHO it is WAY too big unless you make other MAJOR changes
I have it like this in my database- If I'm wrong let me know please the 60302 is one of their old numbers so they could have superseded
475/494 262/268 220/226 112lsa #60302
LUNATI from what I hear - has converted all of their Voodoo Mopar line to Mopar grinds- please check and let me know- many grinders do not Sell MOPAR cams especially short ones and I believe in supporting those that do it really makes a difference in a low comprssion street build If I'm racing I can rev the snot out of a chevy grind and sorta make it work- I hate to make the loose the low end trade off

anyway 220 @50 is way bigger than the 340 HP cam

Another issue going on. agree. springs, timing chain jumping all over the place, ignition , timing lots of things

how do the plugs look and what's the cranking compression
 
With free breathing in and out, my low-C, 1973 stock long-block teener, pulled pretty good to 5000, and with more valve spring pressure to over 5500 with the stock 240/248/112 cam. It didn't pull hard up there, but what did I care; it was my winter engine.
With 3.55s,and a A833od/GVOD, 5500 was 52mph in 1st/over using 2gears.
With 4.88s, and same trans, 5500 was now 54mph in second, using 3 gears (still splitting gears). And cruising (with the 4.88s) was still 65=2180 with double overdrive; That combo was a real hoot.
Eventually I put an A999 in her for winter, that was nice in it's own way.

If I was gonna hop up MY 8.0ish teener, this is the cam I would go shopping for;
First it would be a mechanical flat tappet with ramps of around 38*. Lunati seems to have a handle on this.
Then I would tighten up the LSA to 102, cuz this teener is gonna be a one or two gear deal, so I'll be looking to move the power as far up the rpm band as I can. Next I am gonna slam that intake closed as early as I can to actually make more cylinder pressure than stock, to increase the low-rpm performance, so I can run 3.23s. I don't care so much about the power/exhaust side, as long as it comes along for the ride. And finally I'll be looking to increase steady-state point to point fuel economy.That looks like a winner to me.

To that end; the stock cam is 240/248/112 and has durations of: intake of 240,exhaust of 248, overlap of 20* ooo so scary. Now compression and power total 252*, and if you install it at 110, then you will have an ICA of 50* . At 8.0 Scr,Mr. Wallace says this will bring the Dcr in at 7.0/135psi/111VP. I have no clue what the .050s of this cam might be but I suspect less than 190*. Sooooooo; 111VP is not quite marshmallow soft but almost.
>>So here is the solid flat-tappet cam I worked out: 252/256/102 It has durations of: intake of 252 (plus 12), exhaust of 256 (plus 8), overlap of 52 (so she idles with a bit of a lope), compression and power total up to 264 (plus 12), and if you install it at 100*, then you will have an ICA of 46* . Still at 8.0 Scr, Mr. Wallace says this will increase the Dcr to 7.2 (up .2), pressure of 139 (plus4psi), and VP now 117 (up 5.4%). The .050s of this cam might be 214/218. So I estimate this cam to be (214 less 111)/7= more than 3 sizes bigger than factory. That's a huge jump to not have to sacrifice low rpm performance to get.

Now lets analyze this cuz I know you all think I'm crazy to install a 102 LSA cam in there. Ok so this cam will power peak at what? I'm guessing 4700, and she'll be dropping off rapidly after 5000. But she'll be building power very fast and peak at a higher number than the generics. The sacrifice is the powerband; there ain't enough for an automatic; the 1-2 shift will drop the Rs from 5000 to 2950= 2040rpm, and I'm guessing the engine might struggle a bit with that. But I don't care cuz I'm gonna slam it into Drive and call it done. Why? Cuz with 3.23s this is 50mph,fast enough for my application: I just want to scream thru first gear burning up the tires, and rattling windows thru my dual 3inch cannons.
Now, to help me get off the line, I'm gonna try my 2400TC. 65 mph will be 2500 with 28s so that should work out for me. I like the 2800TC that I already have, so if the 2400 doesn't work out, she's my back-up.
>>Now let's talk about fuel economy.
Firstly the cylinder pressure is low enough that she'll run on 87E10. This is important to me Cuz I'm gonna rack up a lotta miles on this poser. Wait Poser? Well yeah.... It idles quite a bit lopier than A 340, but she's done real early, and when she hits second, she's gonna nose over for a while. I'd call that a poser.
Secondly, with the ICA set to 100, the time allocated to compression is 134*. That's a lot of time. But it doesn't mean that much in this combo, cuz the pressure only hits 139psi. But, on the other side, power extraction time is 130*. This is HUGE. Normally a guy wouldn't run this much on purpose cuz most of the energy in the exhaust is pretty much used up by 110/115 in a hotrod engine, and if it's not,we don't care cuz there's another charge coming right behind it. ....... But this is not a hot rod engine. And the only way to run less is to muck up the other timing events, so 130* it will have to be. However, in this engine, those 130 degrees will help her burn up every last molecule of gas that finds it's way in there.... at cruising speed. Finally this cam will come out of reversion a little below 2200, so that's a minimum economical cruising speed of 54mph.
So that about covers it; I get a fat little power-curve, a little more torque down low, better Hi-way fuel economy,and the lopey idle everybody loves. The sacrifice is occasional valve adjustments........ And with an automatic, it's kindof a one gear deal.

>>But I don't have an automatic.I have a 3.09low 4 speed and am using the GVOD as a splitter. That makes my powerband requirement with a 5000 shift, just 1100rpm ............... purfect for this cam.
So that's what I would be shopping for; a 252/256/102/52 o-lap, fast-rate, solid, flat tappet cam, with as much lift as the grinder will give me or whatever lift I can make the heads accept. and ................ you just know I'm gonna send those little tiny heads out for a little work ........ Or maybe I'll.........

but if a 102LSA cam scares you
>here are some other, a lil less power numbers;252/260/104 now 48* of overlap, still makes extra pressure with an ICA of 48* (vs50* stock)
> or how about 250/256/106,now 41* overlap same 48* ICA as factory
> or how about 248/256/108, now 36* overlap, same 48* ICA as stock, in fact, same 252 total for compression plus power, as stock. This is actually one size bigger than stock but with the LSA closed up to run a few hundred rpm higher.And higher rpm .....is supposed to make more power.
But I myself would go straight to the big dog; 252/256/102/52 overlap
 
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What we don't know is what the OP means by "seems to run out of steam after 3500rpm"..... Stops completely? The torque drops off? (Meaning the seat-of-the-pants feel of begin pressed back in the seat starts to drop off?) There are several interpretations of such a statement so there will be different ideas about what is actually happening, like in post #3: "was way out of the power range for a stock cam but it would go there"

BTW, OP, make sure your duals don't have glass pack mufflers where the fiberglass is 'leaking' out of its proper place and plugging the exhaust.
 
What I mean by it drops off is that it no longer pulls, just makes noise. 60 mph is about 3000rpm, 70 mph is all I got. So before I make a cam decision I will run a comp test, check the timing , making sure the advance works. Don't have glass packs, the timing chain is not original, but it could be stretched. AJ I didn't understand half of what you wrote, wyrmrider if I read your thread correctly you would run the 252.
Thanks
 
I had to read Aj twice but what he said makes sense
He just reinvented a solid short duration Whiplash cam- and I actually think it would not lope too bad since it's so short
If you are looking at this Hyd cam
461 307 256 @ 202 it's about 256 @006 if I remember but big at .200 let the grinder pick the exhaust lobe and lca- he's the best at that kind of thing
I don't know if he'll squeeze the lca together a la Aj I would think of the true compression you come up with and the exhaust, etc
looking fwd to the compression- you too AJ?
 
Are you saying your teener cannot drive faster than 70 mph in any gear? And does not backfire,missfire or otherwise misbehave? That sure sounds like either;
1) the carb is only opening halfway on the primaries, or
2) bad cam timing/ very low cylinder pressure, or
3) a restricted exhaust, or
4) no ignition advance whatsoever, or or
5) the engine load is ridiculously huge,lol.kidding; you'd have to be towing a 10 ft tall 40ft long 5th wheel trailer.
Together with the other statement, about just makes noise, I think I'd be checking the carb opening first cuz that's easy,then the ignition timing mechanisms,then a compression test,Hyup, then a pressure test on the exhaust system, and then the cam timing dead last,along with the lobes. These are in order of complexity and time to perform.

Or are you saying it will not rev past 3500? This sounds like valve float/lifter pump-up, or plugged exhaust

Here's a tip; if the cam timing is seriously retarded, someone will have turned the speed screw waaaay up and cranked a bunch of initial timing into it. The engine will usually be very hard to start no matter how you set the choke. And of course the cylinder pressure will be very low, perhaps less than 50psi..... on all cylinders.... so yes, it will be interesting to see the pressure results.
 
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Something else is bothering me;
To be spinning 3000 at 60 mph,with 3.55s, you would have to have really small tires; just under 24" tall at zero slip. A 205/75-14 is 26.1, a 235/60-14 is 25.1, a 245/50-14 is 23.6
Or the TC is seriously slipping.
Or the tach is lying
Or the speed-O is out.
Or that chunk is not a 3.55,lol
 
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What I mean by it drops off is that it no longer pulls, just makes noise. 60 mph is about 3000rpm, 70 mph is all I got. So before I make a cam decision I will run a comp test, check the timing , making sure the advance works. Don't have glass packs, the timing chain is not original, but it could be stretched. AJ I didn't understand half of what you wrote, wyrmrider if I read your thread correctly you would run the 252.
Thanks
Good info... AJ is spot on... this should not happen. I don't think it will be timing related (cam or ignition) unless the cam is off like a whole tooth. (But it could have been assembled wrong.) The carb not opening or an exhaust restriction seems most likely.

"Just makes noise"? Sputtering? Missing? Some sort of chain rattle or ...??
 
Car starts easily. The gears are brand new. the tires are 26". The exhaust is new. The tach is cheap, it could be out. No back fire, sputtering or strange noises, it just "lays over", I am thinking it is valve float but not sure. Carb could be an issue will check it out as well this weekend.
 
To be clear I was suggesting the much shorter than the 262 for a stock block
Ask Lunati if the 253 is a .904 or a chevy lifter size master- I can't check till much later
Jones has the best lobe for this class but I have not tried the Howard
 
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