engine flat outa the hole

[winstoninwisc]

hey all I just got my 360+ build done and in , first shake down run today , I have a new tsi trans with a 3200 stall that doesn't seen to be stalling ?? I have a m1 intake , mechanical msd , 525 lift 309/288 comp cam with a 650 dp/df mechanical secondairies.

2 and 3 rd gear are awesome in the sweet spots , but I cannot get it to come out of the hole I am running the timing at 10 initial and 37 , we changed the springs in the distributor to the lightest and changed the shim weight to the red as recommended by MSD to open as fast as possible I am wondering by the CDI x rpm 3456 equation for cfm in carb size if I am way under carbureted , wich the build called for a 780 cfrm vacuum secondairies or where am I missing my tunning at ?? this got way over my head with so many varyations , I just wanted to get some better experience to see what they think and what they figure the cfm<s should be on the carb .
Rick , tony , ROB , Fishy , MRL, BRIAN Hilfigar can you guys give me a little insight to what might be going on here .is there a way to check or set my stall?? it doesn't seem to let me buzz, 3000 it comes in and smak second and its on a tear , please help me you guys not all named with great trouble shooting experience . thanx HOPE YOU CAN READ THIS pm asap
also I have rhs 2.02 heads and plugs gapped at 45 running on 91 0ct

 

[crackedback]

Distributor a pro billet that uses advance limiter bushings?

If so, install the black bushing, retime it, reset idle speed and mixture screws and see how it runs. IMO, NEVER EVER EVER run the the red bushing on anything but a stock 318 2bbl engine. Way too much mechanical advance.

You might actually need a bushing that has less advance in it. I have them if you need one to set the engine up right at idle. My guess it will want in excess of 20* initial timing. It should idle around 900-1000 rpm.

37* seems like a lot of timing for a closed chambered SB.

Carb isn't what I would run, but, it's not likely the issue.

 

[2 Darts]

Remember the old-timers rule-of-thumb on carburetors? Manual transmission, mechanical secondaries. Automatic transmission, vacuum secondaries. What sounds like the problem described is too much air/fuel mixture for the engine on launch. Rather than being under-carbureted, I suggest that the engine is over-carbureted when trying to come outta da hole. Rather than go to a smaller carburetor, suggest same size with vacuum secondaries. The vacuum secondaries, if working properly, will not supply more than the engine can handle.

 

[fishy68]

Not stalling like it should may be because it's not making much low end torque. You didn't mention your compression ratio but IMO that's not even close to enough initial timing for a cam that size. What MSD distributor do you have? If it's a standard billet unit you need one of Rob-Crackedback's 10* button's in it and set the timing at 24-25 initial which will give you 34-35 total. That'll help low end torque quite a bit. Not sure the M1 was a good choice unless your running a pretty low gear. I had a smaller cam than that and a 3k stall in my old 360 with an Eddy air-gap and it wasn't a torque monster at all. I'd hate to think what it would have ran like with a M1.

Your carb may be a little small but I don't think size is a major contributing factor unless it's running real lean. If it falls on it's nose when you floor it you may need to go up a few sizes on the pump squirters especially on the secondary side. If you can upgrade to a 750 it'd help mid range to top end power.

Questions that need answered

What exact Comp cam is it? Either the full specs or part #. Did you degree the cam in or just stick it in dot to dot?

What's the compression ratio?

What gear ratio are you running?

Are you set on keeping stock manifolds on it? I know headers are a PITA on early A's but you've built an engine that needs to breath and stock manifolds are a big restriction. Kinda like a 400 guy trying to run the 440 with a cork up one nostril.

 

[fishy68]

Distributor a pro billet that uses advance limiter bushings?

If so, install the black bushing, retime it, reset idle speed and mixture screws and see how it runs. IMO, NEVER EVER EVER run the the red bushing on anything but a stock 318 2bbl engine. Way too much mechanical advance.

You might actually need a bushing that has less advance in it. I have them if you need one to set the engine up right at idle. My guess it will want in excess of 20* initial timing. It should idle around 900-1000 rpm.

37* seems like a lot of timing for a closed chambered SB.

Carb isn't what I would run, but, it's not likely the issue.

Were your ears ringing Rob! I was typing about you while you were, LOL

 

[winstoninwisc]

lol almost word for word with rob , but it was the same set up as the msd came with
the 340 raised hell with the 650 but had a LD340 on it .Yes it was degreed in I caqn only assume , mikey shroeders been building race motors forever and checks every piece before he trusts some 1 elses work , like a machine broke and put a mark 4 degrees off ,he trusts no 1 but his work , even the new parts have to pass his quality control .
it came to be 9.8:1 compression and yes it wanted 28 degree"s initial and right around 37 but that was us after breakin and 4 hours of trouble shooting and shakedown run , and then reading MSD SET-UP and spring curves and bushing charts . And also as I said I don't feel the stall at all , but we are running 3.23 gears right now and yes no headers yet . wondering if 12k in just motor and tranny then 1750.00 for headers ifs feaseable with tesla making a run for the $ and I haven't seen 1 of these sell for over 12,500.00 I was going to do this in a duster or dart just because the header issues of the early A bodies but I do luv these cars
I will put the MSD BACK oem but with the black bushing and try to find a 750 to try
for a weekend if I can. meanwhile if you think of any thing else please pm me with options keep an eye open for a ld 340 at a reasonable price also thanks tracy,, jon

 

[RustyRatRod]

More nitrous.

 

[Locomotion]

X2 on most of whats been said. But carb tuning can help a lot. Double pumpers idle rich out of the box and are a pain to get "just right". On my race car after years of tuning, a 650 DP ran about the same ET's as a 750 vacuum. The 650 launched harder but the 750 vacuum made up for it with airflow. A 750 double pump ran about a tenth faster than both. But this was on a race car.

You'll probably need to go with bigger squirters (.037+), bigger pump cams (pink 1,2,3), get the correct power valve based on vacuum readings, play with the secondary throttle blade opening at idle, etc. Check & reset (if needed) the pump arm adjustments after every pump cam change.

In your case with the conservative gear and converter, a good dual plane with the 750 vacuum secondary would give the best all around performance and be easier to tune. Good intake options besides a LD340 would be an Air-Gap and a Weiand Stealth.

Try a 4 hole spacer if hood clearance allows it.

Headers can only help, but it may affect optimum jetting. I'm biased, but TTI 1 5/8"-1 3/4" step headers work great on a variety of combos with a bunch of other advantages. Dyno tests show good results on mild small blocks and they work great on my race car running low 11's as well as other NHRA Stock classed cars despite the initial 1 5/8" pipes. Any straight 1 5/8" would be a restriction.

 

[crackedback]

Were your ears ringing Rob! I was typing about you while you were, LOL

Too funny!

I'd put the light silver and med blue spring on the distributor. That is a package that seems to work pretty well. The instructions show the curves on graphs for each spring package.

If the engine liked 28 initial, why is it set at 10? A 10* bushing would help allow you to set initial in the 24-28 range and still not be out of bounds on total.

LD340, Air Gap or Performer RPM are 3 good intake manifolds.

 

[flyfish]

If you are not seeing the "stall" you were hoping for, it is more than likely due to your miss matched combo. You have a relatively large cam, low compression, highway gears, and exhaust manifolds. The torque converter will only stall higher if it sees more torque, but with the miss matched parts just listed, it is going to have very low torque, so it is going to be a dog out of the hole, no 2 ways about it. Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to shoot straight with ya.

 

[Mad Dart]

I second you have a Lazy Initial timing and the advance curve is way out there. Your distributor needs to be set up correctly. Than dial in the carb after you get that figured out.

Less Lazy down low = more torque, more stall

What RPM is your timing all in at now?? If it is over the stall of converter that is another big part of your problem.

Plugs are gapped too big for me.

 

[Mad Dart]

More nitrous.

:cheers:

 

[moper]

Too funny!

I'd put the light silver and med blue spring on the distributor. That is a package that seems to work pretty well. The instructions show the curves on graphs for each spring package.

If the engine liked 28 initial, why is it set at 10? A 10* bushing would help allow you to set initial in the 24-28 range and still not be out of bounds on total.

LD340, Air Gap or Performer RPM are 3 good intake manifolds.

x2.

Not enough initial, too much total, and probably in too early. Once the timings figured out you can tweak the carb.
What did you mean by you "don't feel the stall"?

 

[70aarcuda]

if you are loading the converter by power braking it ....you are not going to see much in the way of the converter flashing....

best thing is to hit it just off of idle...using the torque of the engine to flash the converter....and with a 3000 stall...most cars are usually walking off the starting line......and if it was just an generic 3000 converter...that maybe behind a 440...and you are only getting 2500 stall behind a 360...

you can check it ...easier with manual valve body.....just rolling in high gear...floor it...see where the converter flashes too.