Excessive play in steering wheel

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68ValiantEffort

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My steering wheel has about a 1/8 turn in both directions play in it. What would cause that? The steering box? Also I currently have a slant six in the car with a 360 on the side that I'm trying to rebuild...would the steering box need to be changed when I swap in the 360? Thanks in advance for all input and advice
 
steering box can stay...

factory service manual will show you how to adjust the play..
 
Actually the play can be caused by anything from the steering shaft coupler to the tie rod ends.
A good play inspection is in order.
 
TrailBeast said:
Actually the play can be caused by anything from the steering shaft coupler to the tie rod ends. A good play inspection is in order.
Click to expand...
Exactly. And when you adjust the steering box play, it has to be at it's center of travel.
 
TrailBeast said:
Actually the play can be caused by anything from the steering shaft coupler to the tie rod ends.
A good play inspection is in order.
Click to expand...

Absolutely and you need two people

Get your great lookin girlfriend to wiggle the wheel back and forth while you watch "things".

Pay close attention. Start right at the shaft coming down from the column in the engine bay, into and out of the shaft coupler. Watch for any play between the two. They should follow exactly.

Same for the bottom of the coupler and the box shaft.

Now get down and look at the linkage. Look for movement of the box, loose on the K

Look for any lost movement in the pitman arm ball to the center link, up/ down or other lost movement at the idler, and at each tire rod ball.

If this is play "in the box" you will see movement of the column shaft with a "dead spot" of the pitman not moving.

You can download service manuals free at MyMopar. Several of them, there, came from the guys here at FABO

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31
 
AJ/FormS said:
Is that with a manual box?
Click to expand...
At least the ones I have messed with. ('Messed with'..... doesn't that sound professional! LOL)

The sector gear has a high spot in the exact middle of travel and the gear lash will be at zero only at the center of travel when properly adjusted. Too tight of a lash adjustment off to the side of center of travel will result in a binding condition when the sector gear turns through the center.

This center of travel and the proper adjustment of the gear mesh for zero lash and proper torque at center should be found, and the straight-head alignment of the steering with the tie rod adjustments and centering the steering wheel should be done with the steering box at this point. And due to machining or parts variations, this center-of-travel point may be a bit off of halfway between the ends of travel, so it should be found independently of the end of travels. (I.e., don't just count the turns end to end and go halfway between.)
 
Well here's the thing;
With the engine off and a power steering box, 1/8 of a turn either way from centered can be perfectly normal. With those single, flimsy, factory, reaction discs, in there, I have seen lots of perfectly fine-driving cars set up like that.

I have also seen perfectly fine-driving cars with manual boxes, that exhibited some steering wheel play, when stationary. In my experience the idler arm can be doing a little dance when the rubber is glued to the floor,and the box could be just fine.I'm just saying.

I know everybody's trying to help but gee-whiz the O/P hasn't clued me-at-least in yet.

And no I'm not arguing with any of the posters and their excellent helps. Steering boxes are always better steering when set a little loose than a little too tight. Too-tight on center steers like crxx.
 
nm9stheham said:
At least the ones I have messed with. ('Messed with'..... doesn't that sound professional! LOL)

The sector gear has a high spot in the exact middle of travel and the gear lash will be at zero only at the center of travel when properly adjusted. Too tight of a lash adjustment off to the side of center of travel will result in a binding condition when the sector gear turns through the center.

This center of travel and the proper adjustment of the gear mesh for zero lash and proper torque at center should be found, and the straight-head alignment of the steering with the tie rod adjustments and centering the steering wheel should be done with the steering box at this point. And due to machining or parts variations, this center-of-travel point may be a bit off of halfway between the ends of travel, so it should be found independently of the end of travels. (I.e., don't just count the turns end to end and go halfway between.)
Click to expand...

Exactly my experience also, and you can find that elusive center by lightly over tightening the gear mesh and feeling for that center bind.
It will be pretty close to the center of the amount of turns, so it's not like you have to turn the wheel all they way back and forth.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Well here's the thing;
With the engine off and a power steering box, 1/8 of a turn either way from centered can be perfectly normal. With those single, flimsy, factory, reaction discs, in there, I have seen lots of perfectly fine-driving cars set up like that.

I have also seen perfectly fine-driving cars with manual boxes, that exhibited some steering wheel play, when stationary. In my experience the idler arm can be doing a little dance when the rubber is glued to the floor,and the box could be just fine.I'm just saying.

I know everybody's trying to help but gee-whiz the O/P hasn't clued me-at-least in yet.

And no I'm not arguing with any of the posters and their excellent helps. Steering boxes are always better steering when set a little loose than a little too tight. Too-tight on center steers like crxx.
Click to expand...


What are you trying to say AJ?
That we took a tiny bit of information given by the OP and turned it into a scenario hunt?:D

I HATE the feel of an overtight steering box, that sticky can't trust it feeling like it may not actually turn next time.
Uhh.
 
Sorry i left you all hanging a bit there. I have power steering...does that make a difference? also it has the play when the engine is off and when it is on. I went ahead and ordered a service manual before I saw your post but will check and see it my manual is on that link.
also I just thought the steering was way too loose. I look like a maniac trying to keep my car straight lol.
 
LOL, well, we have focused on the steering boxes, partly out of general conversation. Rereading you original post, I thought you side 1/8" play but you said 1/8 TURN at the wheel; that is HUGE and explains having to steer like a maniac all over the place! That comment makes it pretty certain that you have a number of badly worn steering and suspensions components, as mentioned before. I would not be driving that car, and certainly not with a new 360 in it!

Steering: Steering shaft coupler, steering box, pitman arm, idler arm, tie rod ends.
Suspension: Control arm bushings, ball joints, strut rod bushings.

Sounds like time to jack up the car on stands, and go through the steering parts and find the loose item(s) and replace. And the same for the suspension parts, although those are harder to test; look for bits of rubber hanging out of the bushings, cracked and rotted rubber at the joints, and so forth.

If 'twer me, and the car's maintenance history was unknown, and I found a couple of bad parts, I would just shotgun the whole steering and front suspension with new parts, with the possible excpetion of the box: I would price that out and if too pricey, then test and adjust on that to see if it would come close to spec. And with 1/8 turn of looseness at the wheel, I would expect all sorts of worn/bad parts. Just 20-30 year old dried up grease in the joints in a car that has been sitting will cause problems. The parts don't cost THAT much and an all new setup will be a dream to drive.

It is not a job for a pure amateur, but if you are decent with tools and cars and have some room to work, this is something that you can do at your home shop. And unless I knew a shop that really knows older cars well, I would do it myself for the quality control. It does require some special tools, and a vice and a few big sockets, a lot of rust penetrant, and some occasional swear words, and air tools make it a lot easier too. You might want to take a few things to a shop with a press.

And BTW, a power steering box will have some play when the engine is off that a manual box will not have. This due to the valves inside the power box that are directly actuated by your steering input.
 
oh wow. ok thanks for that. The 360 isnt in now thank goodness. I would hate to drive it if its this bad with just the slant 6. I usually just drive down to the gas station a few blocks away that actually still sells 100% unleaded. Should i then set up the suspension and steering for the 360 then? and would there be any differences in parts in the suspension/steering area between the 2 motors? Thanks again
 
The V8 torsion bars are larger diameter and thus stiffer, so you should look into changing them if this is a street driven machine. If I was going to change the T-bars, then I would read up on what others are using in the various threads here, but if on a budget, then at least find some T-bars from a V8 car. (Your car presumably has /6 t-bars, and if you are purely drag racing, they would actually be desirable, but not for street driving.)

The rest of the parts should not change. Doing all of this when the engine is out might make it a bit easier, but that is not necessary. I would actually do the steering and suspension BEFORE changing so you can get any issues sorted out and not be fighting them at the same time as sorting our a new engine installation.

And as far as the suspension overall, read up a lot on this subforum. It is like everything else, you can go on and on with upgrades..... and the associated costs!

Oh yeah, add wheel bearings on your list of things to inspect/replace. If you need to take this to a shop for this work to be done, then you can expect many, many hundreds of $$ for a full rebuild; it is not hard but is a fair amount of labor time. At least down there in Cleveland in east TN, the chances of finding an old school mechanic who knows this stuff is a lot better than most areas of the country.
 
Ok will do...I think I can do this on my own. I got a neighbor who made the mistake of saying "just holler if you need any help" and he seems pretty knowledgeable. I'll provide the labor if he provides the insight. There are still some shops around that I will have to check into. I wonder if I could sneak some parts into work via a backpack and use our small press....should be able too..they pretty easy going on govt work. What do u think about a front end rebuild kit. They seem to have most of what all I might need
 
If you have any plans to swap it to big bolt pattern disc brakes, now may be the time to do it. The upper control arms and upper ball joints are different on the 73 and up stuff, so doing that now would save you from having to turn around and buy new upper ball joints and bushings for different upper control arms. Just something to think about to save added expense down the road if you were going to add disc brakes.
 
ok yes most def. I'm hoping i can find the stuff to at least convert my front to disc. thanks for bringing that to my attention
 
68ValiantEffort said:
What do u think about a front end rebuild kit. They seem to have most of what all I might need
Click to expand...
What kit is that? I tend to buy individual parts. And for a regular road cruiser, I would not go with poly bushings; they tend to be harsher on the suspension and chassis parts. I use regular rubber bushings.

OK on rebuilding there with your neighbor. Invest some time here readings threads on that, all you can find. You will learn important bits that will make the work soooo much easier, like:
- How to get the upper ball joints in an out and what tools to use in various places
- The use for offset upper control arm bushings for getting more caster than stock for a more modern steering feel (which has it's +'s and -'s)
- NOT torquing the lower control arm pivot bolts until AFTER the car is on the ground and final ride height set; if you torque them down before the car is on the ground, then it will rip up the rubber in the lower control arm bushings.
- And so on....
 
If you go so far as to upgrade your torsion bars, and the engine is out anyways, I'd suggest dropping the K-member, mounting the engine to it, then pull it up from under the car. It's easier than trying to drop it in from the top.
 
I was looking at the rebuild kits from PST. they offer them in poly or the OEM rubber bushings. They are around 400 depending on how much you get. I'll shop around to find more places. Do you suggest anything?

I'll look up how to do a front end rebuild on the forum and on YouTube

I don't know about pulling the motor up from under. I don't have access to a lift unless you can do it with out but I'm clueless about that stuff for now
 
I sourced all my parts from RockAuto, all Moog. As for putting in the motor, I did not use a lift. I had two $8 Harbor Freight flat mover's rollers. I bolted the tranny (4-speed) to the engine (engine already bolted to the K-member) while on the rollers. I jacked up the front of the car, rolled the the engine/tranny/K-member ***'y combo under the car, slung the engine hoist above the engine, pulled it up. Four K-member bolts, and BLAMMO, it was in. Did it alone, no help needed. No having to wrestle with the transmission under the car. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
 
Hmm....I will most definitely check that out then. I'll check rock auto. Haven't looked at them yet. Did u need a bigger jack to jack up the front end that high?
 
nm9stheham said:
What kit is that? I tend to buy individual parts. And for a regular road cruiser, I would not go with poly bushings; they tend to be harsher on the suspension and chassis parts. I use regular rubber bushings.
Click to expand...

I found this while looking around

http://www.carid.com/1968-plymouth-...n-hyper-flex-system-master-sets-40029653.html

$136 out the door. It has poly bushings though. I was also reading some stuff in the suspension section...I seen where it was said if you go poly at least dont put them on the Lower Control Arms. What are your thoughts about that?
 
Rock Auto, NAPA. Moog is typically very good though there have been some ball joints issue of late, I believe.

I bought the whole kit & kaboodle from NAPA with their premium parts for a bit over $400 IIRC, and got the strut rod bushings with that too; PST does not list a full list of parts so ask them for a list of you go that way. That way, if I had/have a parts problem I could/can get it fixed locally.
 
I jacked the car at four corners, placed stands under with the front high enough to clear rolling the engine underneath. Just used a standard ton and a half floor jack.
 

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