68340fish
Well-Known Member
People would pay alot of money for all of this psycho analysis bull$%*! I'm not offended by a clone, or confused, I just dont like being deceived & lied to. Apparently some people dont mind.
Fake '68 Formula-S on Ebay!!!
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People would pay alot of money for all of this psycho analysis bull$%*! I'm not offended by a clone, or confused, I just dont like being deceived & lied to. Apparently some people dont mind.
340mopar
Sorgermotorsports
Exactly.
Engine swaps, changing the color, customizing, etc. is all part of hot rodding or the car hobby. I have been around cars since I was born being my dad was a tech director for NHRA. I have been around customs and have been around the real mccoys and I appreciate the level of dedication that both types of car owner put in their cars. Anyone that makes there car look like a factory rare car is only trying to do one thing, make it look like a factory rare car, period. If they didn't then they would make them look like something else.
Chuckbizkits, I called the guy that walks up to the factory car and say's his buddy has one when it is a fake a dork. Not the guy that owns the fake. Might want to re-read before making comments. The problem is not in the fakes directly it is in the general public that don't know the difference.
One thing is for sure, guys like me that have owned or do own the originals don't care for the fakes and the guys that have owned a clone or would own one think they are OK. You will never, ever convince me that there is a place for them.
Even if the person selling the fake states it is a clone they still recieve more money for it because it looks like the real one. So they are riding one the shirt tails of the guys that have the real ones.
I bought a '72 Scamp for my wife but she likes the look of the '70 Dart Swinger more so I am in the process of putting on a '70 Dart nose so it will look like one. She also wants the twin scoops and I am reluctant unless you could get them also with a 318 and not just the 340 because I don't want to make a Swinger 340 fake because to me it is disrespectful to the guys that own Swinger 340's.
Chuck
OneOfMany
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with 68340fish. I couldn't care less whether a car is numbered or a clone. But I was young too, and maybe a little less informed than now. Of course there was no Google to automatically bring up all the info on a VIN or fendertag. Unfortunately, what I have learned is that it is "buyer beware" when it comes to buying anything, and the thing that bugs me the most is watching unscrupulous individuals either lying or omitting information to prospective buyers in the hopes they are ill-informed, and pay a premium for something they "think" they are getting. So as far as pointing out these issues, hopefully someone on this board interested in the vehicle in question at least will go in with the knowledge to make an informed decision.
Just be glad it's not one of the thousands of 67 Camaro SS out there. They say if you brought them all together you'd have ten times more than the 602 they built. lol
Grant
Just be glad it's not one of the thousands of 67 Camaro SS out there. They say if you brought them all together you'd have ten times more than the 602 they built. lol
Grant
adriver
Blazing Apostle
Good that you are making this known to people.
That appears to be the purpose of your post.
I know if I was buying something (anything) I would not want the seller to misrepresent it.
However with old cars it is what it is.
If someone is into this for an investment, caveat emptor.
I wont question this sellers motives or the accuracy of his statements.
Im not well qualified for either.
Clones and fakes.
Seems to me its all in ones perspective.
Perhaps a person more concerned that his Hemi whatever will be worth less because there are more of them? Or is it preferable to have more Max Wedge cars at the drive in instead of SS Chevelles?
(Remember the kid in the parking lot?)
It almost like people are trying to keep the bloodlines pure.
For who? For generations yet un-born?
GG says it is only original once.
And by my logic no matter how much one spends to restore a basket case, Chrysler didnt build it.
Someone else did.
Follow this:
(Years ago I actually saw something very close to the following statement about metal in one of the Mopar publications. It was about a rare E Body Cuda that was saved.
Right then I knew .)
Someone cuts up a perfectly good Satellite and grafts that metal onto a Road Runner carcass. The only thing that is saved from the Road Runner is the cowl, radiator support, trunk and roof.
I think that gets about all the body VIN numbers?
All the other metal came from the poor donor car.
This is call restoration and it is acceptable.
Yet we now have a whole body that Chrysler DID NOT put together.
But if someone takes the documentation from a hopeless Road Runner and puts that documentation on a nice Satellite body, we now have car with a body that Chrysler actually DID put together.
This is viewed as wrong by many authorities. It is a re-numbered body.
Which car would you want?
For better or worse, that is the way it is.
That appears to be the purpose of your post.
I know if I was buying something (anything) I would not want the seller to misrepresent it.
However with old cars it is what it is.
If someone is into this for an investment, caveat emptor.
I wont question this sellers motives or the accuracy of his statements.
Im not well qualified for either.
Clones and fakes.
Seems to me its all in ones perspective.
Perhaps a person more concerned that his Hemi whatever will be worth less because there are more of them? Or is it preferable to have more Max Wedge cars at the drive in instead of SS Chevelles?
(Remember the kid in the parking lot?)
It almost like people are trying to keep the bloodlines pure.
For who? For generations yet un-born?
GG says it is only original once.
And by my logic no matter how much one spends to restore a basket case, Chrysler didnt build it.
Someone else did.
Follow this:
(Years ago I actually saw something very close to the following statement about metal in one of the Mopar publications. It was about a rare E Body Cuda that was saved.
Right then I knew .)
Someone cuts up a perfectly good Satellite and grafts that metal onto a Road Runner carcass. The only thing that is saved from the Road Runner is the cowl, radiator support, trunk and roof.
I think that gets about all the body VIN numbers?
All the other metal came from the poor donor car.
This is call restoration and it is acceptable.
Yet we now have a whole body that Chrysler DID NOT put together.
But if someone takes the documentation from a hopeless Road Runner and puts that documentation on a nice Satellite body, we now have car with a body that Chrysler actually DID put together.
This is viewed as wrong by many authorities. It is a re-numbered body.
Which car would you want?
For better or worse, that is the way it is.
Chuckbizkits
Well-Known Member
You guys are right. I got too caught up in the clone vs real arguement. The original post was to warn people about a possible fraud issue. I think EVERYONE would agree that representing a clone as an original is bad.
dgc333
Well-Known Member
Adriver, thats great! 
The only original cars that I am impressed with are the survivors and only if it has miles on it indicating some one actually used it. I'm certainly not impressed with a car that has 10 or 20k original miles on, that just tells me the orignal buyer didn't like it enough to drive it.
I am not as impressed with a restoration, restification or a custom that someone just opened their wallet to obtain as I am with car that may not be perfect but the owner was completely involved in every step (whether they actually did it all) of rning it back to life.
I am thrilled with my 68 Barracuda that is 70 Sub-Lime, has a 78 motor, 81 tranny, 76 rear end, 67 interior, 73 brakes, 69 side stripe, 70's ralley wheels, modern stereo sticking through the dash and Formula S emblems (previous owner put them on when it was a \6 car because he dented a fender and the junk yard one had it) and wouldn't trade it for anything. Why, because I did all the work myself and I have gotten more satisfaction than you can imagine working on this car for the past 10 years. I drive daily between March and the first salting of the roads and have put almost 50K miles on it since getting it on the road after the initial restification. I have planned out it's next paint job when this one gets to tired looking it will be a House of Colors tangerine orange metallic now that my painting skills have developed enough to take on a metallic pearl paint.
I purchased the car because it was cool looking and I remembered when they first came out. I only looked at the VIN to make sure it matched the title, i paid a fair price based on the condition. There is enough room in this hobby for everyone to do their own thing but just don't treat my car as something inferior because it didn't come from the factory that way. I can tell you this; my car will out run, out stop and out corner anything that came from the factory and get better fuel mileage than any factory 340 or 383 car to boot.
The only original cars that I am impressed with are the survivors and only if it has miles on it indicating some one actually used it. I'm certainly not impressed with a car that has 10 or 20k original miles on, that just tells me the orignal buyer didn't like it enough to drive it.
I am not as impressed with a restoration, restification or a custom that someone just opened their wallet to obtain as I am with car that may not be perfect but the owner was completely involved in every step (whether they actually did it all) of rning it back to life.
I am thrilled with my 68 Barracuda that is 70 Sub-Lime, has a 78 motor, 81 tranny, 76 rear end, 67 interior, 73 brakes, 69 side stripe, 70's ralley wheels, modern stereo sticking through the dash and Formula S emblems (previous owner put them on when it was a \6 car because he dented a fender and the junk yard one had it) and wouldn't trade it for anything. Why, because I did all the work myself and I have gotten more satisfaction than you can imagine working on this car for the past 10 years. I drive daily between March and the first salting of the roads and have put almost 50K miles on it since getting it on the road after the initial restification. I have planned out it's next paint job when this one gets to tired looking it will be a House of Colors tangerine orange metallic now that my painting skills have developed enough to take on a metallic pearl paint.
I purchased the car because it was cool looking and I remembered when they first came out. I only looked at the VIN to make sure it matched the title, i paid a fair price based on the condition. There is enough room in this hobby for everyone to do their own thing but just don't treat my car as something inferior because it didn't come from the factory that way. I can tell you this; my car will out run, out stop and out corner anything that came from the factory and get better fuel mileage than any factory 340 or 383 car to boot.
Woodys_Cuda
Ontario, Canada
Amen!
I'm always driving my 69 during the nice weather. In fact I think everybody in my city has seen it by now. Maybe I drive it too much? lol.
The drivetrain has been upgraded, it's been repainted, and it's in good shape. It is a Barracuda, that's all that matters to me. I'm glad I have it.
Thanks to the original poster for trying to help somebody from getting ripped off. The seller wasn't being honest in his listing.
68340fish
Well-Known Member
dgc333 & Woodys Cuda -- You guys both have awesome cars that are very impressive to say the least. Thankfully I'm finding out, that there are other people that share the same passion for these rare cars that I do. I thought from a very young age that these cars were special & have been hooked ever since. Because of a tragic event early in life, I was able to purchase my first car in 1983 at the age of 14. It was a '68 340-S fastback. I saw it at the drags one Sunday & knew it was the one. A week later I got a call from the owner & I bought it for $3800.00. After 2 years of hard work, it was back in its street trim, with a fresh red paint job & brand new centerline wheels. Some of the best times of my life were spent in that car. I sold it in 1994 for $8500.00 to buy a house for my growing family. It recently sold on Ebay for around $90.000 after it was turned into the "rogue elephant" Hemi car! When my son was 12 we purchased our current Barracuda to restore together, with help from his younger sister. It will be his first car when he turns 16 in 2 years. It will be painted this winter & if all goes as planned, it could be on the road by the end of next summer. (For me to test drive of course). The beat goes on!!
Woodys_Cuda
Ontario, Canada
Thankyou, I totally agree they're awesome cars. I'm on my third one, the 69. I have had two Formula S cars. My first was a 67' four speed notchback car that somebody swapped a hopped up 318 into. That car would fly! It was badly rusted (frame) beyond my skills at the time so I sold it.
Then, I tried to save a 67 Formula FB from the wreckers. I spent about a year replacing all the frame rails & front clip before I gave up on it. I still have it, but just about everything needs replacing. It is a good parts car for me.
A work injury led me to my current car. I can't do heavy work anymore. It's exceptionally clean, & original. The drivetrain has obviously been replaced, but I'm fine with that. The six pack was actually a selling point with me. The hood scoop is not correct for the car, but looks great in person.
Nobody cares if it is a Formula S, or not. They just think its a great car. If anbody asks I tell them its an original 318 car. Only one person has asked me so far if the car is all original.
I think the majority of us love A bodys even if they are not numbers matching. They're just great cars.
If I ever sell it, I will be honest about it. That was the point of your thread.
limelite70
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hi guys,theres nothing wrong with cloning a 6 cyl car to make it better,faster etc.
but if a car is a mint 6 cyl leave it alone.
last week there was a mint blue 6 cyl car hear for sale.a car like that ,leave it alone. it was a mint 6 cyl blue swinger.
dont be affended by any of our comments.
but if a car is a mint 6 cyl leave it alone.
last week there was a mint blue 6 cyl car hear for sale.a car like that ,leave it alone. it was a mint 6 cyl blue swinger.
dont be affended by any of our comments.
1964 hippo
Well-Known Member
I thought it to bee a clone not s / Did you see that 1964 vert for ( 45.000 )?
Well I see and read all you guys post, and I think all have very good points.
Here is an example of how they should be listed though.
Plymouth : Road Runner 1969 Plymouth 426 Hemi Road Runner
$35,100.00 See description 2d 45m
Clone
Plymouth : Road Runner 426 HEMI 1969 PLYMOUTH HEMI ROADRUNNER,426,ROTISSERIE RESTORED!!
$109,995.00 See description 6d 16h 26m
Real Deal
Both are Hemi runners, both very nice, I have nothing against any clone, it is part of hot rodding agreed! But Money is Money, just like there are plastic fake diamonds and real diamonds. They may all appear to look just as good and some almost impossible to see the diff. But when people bust their behind to make $$$ and get mislead that is more than just not right.
And this is not 100% the buyers fault to investagate. Yes you need to research what you are buying etc. as best you can. I have heard so many peple in my life time say they have a bud or know someone with a hemi cuda etc. If all these stories were true and not BS Mopar would have had to make 100,000 of those cars for all of us that had heard the same lines and stories. So the seller has not only a moral responsibilty to state what they sell, but also a legal one as well.
Just keep it real and it is what it is. Myself I can not afford many of the real deal number matching cars, many people that buy them these days are not real car hot rodder types like most all of us. They are strictly investors driving the price out of site!
I often wonder many times on the cars for sale at Jackson and other houses, since these guys do better than factory restores, what it to say they did not make even fake ID trim plates as well? Bet it happens!! I have seen used cars sold as new at a Chev dealer I worked for more than once, none of us would have been able to see it unless we tore the car apart. There are a lot of dishonest folks out there so beware. These types of people need to disclosed and I thank you for this topic on this fake S car.
PS Great topic guys!
:rock:
Here is an example of how they should be listed though.
Plymouth : Road Runner 1969 Plymouth 426 Hemi Road Runner
$35,100.00 See description 2d 45m
Clone
Plymouth : Road Runner 426 HEMI 1969 PLYMOUTH HEMI ROADRUNNER,426,ROTISSERIE RESTORED!!
$109,995.00 See description 6d 16h 26m
Real Deal
Both are Hemi runners, both very nice, I have nothing against any clone, it is part of hot rodding agreed! But Money is Money, just like there are plastic fake diamonds and real diamonds. They may all appear to look just as good and some almost impossible to see the diff. But when people bust their behind to make $$$ and get mislead that is more than just not right.
And this is not 100% the buyers fault to investagate. Yes you need to research what you are buying etc. as best you can. I have heard so many peple in my life time say they have a bud or know someone with a hemi cuda etc. If all these stories were true and not BS Mopar would have had to make 100,000 of those cars for all of us that had heard the same lines and stories. So the seller has not only a moral responsibilty to state what they sell, but also a legal one as well.
Just keep it real and it is what it is. Myself I can not afford many of the real deal number matching cars, many people that buy them these days are not real car hot rodder types like most all of us. They are strictly investors driving the price out of site!
I often wonder many times on the cars for sale at Jackson and other houses, since these guys do better than factory restores, what it to say they did not make even fake ID trim plates as well? Bet it happens!! I have seen used cars sold as new at a Chev dealer I worked for more than once, none of us would have been able to see it unless we tore the car apart. There are a lot of dishonest folks out there so beware. These types of people need to disclosed and I thank you for this topic on this fake S car.
PS Great topic guys!
:rock:
adriver
Blazing Apostle
Rebuild.
What does that word mean?
(This is a rhetorical question).
Why are parts labeled as remanufactured now instead of rebuilt?
(Another rhetorical question. And probably a thorny legal issue.)
What does restored mean?
(Yet another retorical question. And another question to make money on.)
When I see Rotisserie Restoration, for some reason I think about the deli chickens at Kroger.
Well, at least I dont see too many 100 thousand dollar restored Mopars being called a frame off restoration. (Maybe they are?)
Calling them that happens more in the 35 thousand dollar range. :toothy7:
What does that word mean?
(This is a rhetorical question).
Why are parts labeled as remanufactured now instead of rebuilt?
(Another rhetorical question. And probably a thorny legal issue.)
What does restored mean?
(Yet another retorical question. And another question to make money on.)
When I see Rotisserie Restoration, for some reason I think about the deli chickens at Kroger.
Well, at least I dont see too many 100 thousand dollar restored Mopars being called a frame off restoration. (Maybe they are?)
Calling them that happens more in the 35 thousand dollar range. :toothy7:
The only part I have a problem with is when people are purposely trying to mislead the buying public. If I ask somebody if it is a real 340 car and they say yes, then I find a VIN that says different, I will call them a liar. When people ask me how my 340 Demon works, I tell them it's a 360 and it works great.
I know I can't afford to go buy a real Hemi-Dart. But, I may be able to build a clone of one. Can somebody please explain the harm in that. If I want one and can build it myself and afford it, why not? I shouldn't have to apologise for it. It is what it is.
Jack
I know I can't afford to go buy a real Hemi-Dart. But, I may be able to build a clone of one. Can somebody please explain the harm in that. If I want one and can build it myself and afford it, why not? I shouldn't have to apologise for it. It is what it is.
Jack
rednesss
Well-Known Member
Adriver, thats great!
The only original cars that I am impressed with are the survivors and only if it has miles on it indicating some one actually used it. I'm certainly not impressed with a car that has 10 or 20k original miles on, that just tells me the orignal buyer didn't like it enough to drive it.
I am not as impressed with a restoration, restification or a custom that someone just opened their wallet to obtain as I am with car that may not be perfect but the owner was completely involved in every step (whether they actually did it all) of rning it back to life.
I am thrilled with my 68 Barracuda that is 70 Sub-Lime, has a 78 motor, 81 tranny, 76 rear end, 67 interior, 73 brakes, 69 side stripe, 70's ralley wheels, modern stereo sticking through the dash and Formula S emblems (previous owner put them on when it was a \6 car because he dented a fender and the junk yard one had it) and wouldn't trade it for anything. Why, because I did all the work myself and I have gotten more satisfaction than you can imagine working on this car for the past 10 years. I drive daily between March and the first salting of the roads and have put almost 50K miles on it since getting it on the road after the initial restification. I have planned out it's next paint job when this one gets to tired looking it will be a House of Colors tangerine orange metallic now that my painting skills have developed enough to take on a metallic pearl paint.
I purchased the car because it was cool looking and I remembered when they first came out. I only looked at the VIN to make sure it matched the title, i paid a fair price based on the condition. There is enough room in this hobby for everyone to do their own thing but just don't treat my car as something inferior because it didn't come from the factory that way. I can tell you this; my car will out run, out stop and out corner anything that came from the factory and get better fuel mileage than any factory 340 or 383 car to boot.
I can relate to you. I have a 68 Barracuda Formula S FB A/C car, however it has a '70 340 block in her and I plan on putting a new Sanden AC pump on before next summer. I painted it a newer Chrysler color because at the time the old formulas didn't cross over into the BC/CC system I was using. So I picked something close to the Burgundy Met that it was originally. I put a keyless entry system in and plan on buying electric window motors for it soon. I also plan on installing a carputer with a touchscreen so that I can drive around with 300 GB of my favorite MP3s to listen to over the thumping stereo. Does that detract from what it's worth as a stock car??? Maybe. But I don't care so long as I'm comfortable driving it around. I look at it as an old muscle car with some of the nicer modern amenities. While I'm at it, the old bucket seats aren't nearly as comfy as modern seats so they might go into the rafters sometime soon as well and get replaced. I love tinkering with my cuda.
limelite70
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hi guys,this is a great topic and everybody is giving good honest opinions.
if you want to buy a car and your not sure if its real , etc.
bring a friend or your g.g books.
unless its a great deal and you just dont care and you cant live without the car than thats cool too.
if you want to buy a car and your not sure if its real , etc.
bring a friend or your g.g books.
unless its a great deal and you just dont care and you cant live without the car than thats cool too.
dc_mopar
Well-Known Member
to me clone cars are a mixed bag. i don't like it when some rip-off tries to pass one as authentic, but i also don't like the high prices of the real cars.
a clone is the only way most po workin folks can afford one.
personally i like phantom cars, that way i can have what i want regardless if the factory built it or not. you also get the added benefit of watching the newbies who don't know anything oooh and aaaaw at the obviously "rare" options. the only time "numbers matching" really matters is if you are paying for that. i use the term "built up cars" more often then "clone" as most are not actually complete clones of original cars, but cars built up how you want them. when i look at a built up car i am considering buying i look at the parts it is built from (both stock and aftermarket) and do the math and add up the value of the pile of parts it took to put it together. then i decide if i like it, or what i will have to change to make it what i like, how much that would cost me, and how much a head start the car would give me over starting from scratch. many times the car is cheaper than buying all the parts seperately and you get them all at once. on the flip side i have seen cars where the work was all done wrong, and it would have cost more to fix then to start from scratch. if a numbers matching rare original car is what it takes to make you happy, and you can afford one, more power to you. if you find or build a car that you can afford that makes you happy and the numbers aren't important to you that's cool too. the only thing really not cool is misrepresenting it or commiting fraud. (this does not include letting someone who doesn't know any better drool over it because they ASSUME it's real,as long as you're not selling it to them as genuine) Doug
a clone is the only way most po workin folks can afford one.
personally i like phantom cars, that way i can have what i want regardless if the factory built it or not. you also get the added benefit of watching the newbies who don't know anything oooh and aaaaw at the obviously "rare" options. the only time "numbers matching" really matters is if you are paying for that. i use the term "built up cars" more often then "clone" as most are not actually complete clones of original cars, but cars built up how you want them. when i look at a built up car i am considering buying i look at the parts it is built from (both stock and aftermarket) and do the math and add up the value of the pile of parts it took to put it together. then i decide if i like it, or what i will have to change to make it what i like, how much that would cost me, and how much a head start the car would give me over starting from scratch. many times the car is cheaper than buying all the parts seperately and you get them all at once. on the flip side i have seen cars where the work was all done wrong, and it would have cost more to fix then to start from scratch. if a numbers matching rare original car is what it takes to make you happy, and you can afford one, more power to you. if you find or build a car that you can afford that makes you happy and the numbers aren't important to you that's cool too. the only thing really not cool is misrepresenting it or commiting fraud. (this does not include letting someone who doesn't know any better drool over it because they ASSUME it's real,as long as you're not selling it to them as genuine) Doug
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