Feel like my 440 should be faster

[Ozyduster]

It’s January…….plenty of time for tweaks before car season gets underway.

Pull the heads, have them milled to 80cc and the bowls blended.

Get a 9.5” converter.

If that’s still not enough, put some gears in it.

I would go gears before anything, biggest difference you will feel with any modification. Definitely needs the heads played with as be a slug with stock ports

 

[standup303]

Standup303, I feel your pain. I live near Parker, CO at 5800' and miss the power of my 340 when I lived near sea level in SoCal. I am running 10.05:1 actual compression, essentially stock 340 specs, but you lose 20-25% of your HP due to altitude. There were times at Bandimere when the indicated altitude was 8800' due to temperature and barometric pressure that day. Knocks well over 1 second of 1/4 mile times.
Understand that Bandimere will reopen in Hudson, CO.
"The family-run speedway, now led by Bandimere Jr.’s son, John “Sporty” Bandimere, hopes to have the new facility partially open by 2025, with full operations by 2026. While a partial opening may not be profitable, Bandimere Jr. emphasizes that maintaining the racing family’s legacy is the top priority: “It’s about keeping this racing family together.” Bandimeres Explore Relocation to Hudson, Colorado for New Expanded Facility | Drag Illustrated

BTW, what dyno facility were you planning on using? Not many left in CO.

I sure hope they move forward with the Hudson location! I was planning on going to the Carburetor Shop Mile High Performance Tuning.

 

[standup303]

Thanks for all the input. Definitely doing gears, leaning towards 3.91s. Also looking into converters. Need to finish up some steering work then I’ll dig into the rear end. If I do anything past gears and converter it will be next winter. Nice set of heads is definitely on the want list. Always learning more everyday about how to build these things.

I’ve been cruising FB marketplace and have seen a few decent condition double pumpers for sale. Doing homework on if I want to stick with a 750 or go 850.

 

[Illahe]

I sure hope they move forward with the Hudson location! I was planning on going to the Carburetor Shop Mile High Performance Tuning.

You may want to talk to Mike Jones of Jones' cams in the Carolinas. He recommends more lift on the intake lobe and not to much spread on duration for high altitude racing. Steve Taylor Carburetors said his Bandimere combination used smaller dimeter headers as well. For what its worth Racer Brown had the same comments as Jones cams when I spoke with him about setting up a high altitude combination. You can add 1.6 rockers on your intake to play around with the combination. You are fighting air density. Think about your engine having a least one point less of dynamic compression when your choosing cam and gear ratio combination for you base altitude.

Another route is "atmosphere in a bottle aka N2O." you wont have to change your dial-in as the air density falls off with the heat of the afternoon as you're going through the rounds.

 

[Dartswinger70]

"Retarded" I like that as mach as "doo-Doo"

 

[standup303]

You may want to talk to Mike Jones of Jones' cams in the Carolinas. He recommends more lift on the intake lobe and not to much spread on duration for high altitude racing. Steve Taylor Carburetors said his Bandimere combination used smaller dimeter headers as well. For what its worth Racer Brown had the same comments as Jones cams when I spoke with him about setting up a high altitude combination. You can add 1.6 rockers on your intake to play around with the combination. You are fighting air density. Think about your engine having a least one point less of dynamic compression when your choosing cam and gear ratio combination for you base altitude.

Another route is "atmosphere in a bottle aka N2O." you wont have to change your dial-in as the air density falls off with the heat of the afternoon as you're going through the rounds.

I’ve heard nothing but good things about racer brown. I’ll read up on those shops when picking out the next cam.

 

[NITROTRIP]

In your list, "stock ignition box". If it is an original old chrysler box it will start rpm limiting
around 5000 to 5200 rpm. If it is a stock replacement in the last 25years they start limiting
as low as 4200 rpm. They don't hit a wall like a chip they get lazy. With a box from auto zone
you would have a hard time passing a car on a single lane highway. Get a orange box from
mopar perf or branden at 440 source ect. 6000 rpm. Easy first thing to try. I have 2 of the newer
chrome boxes 1 from auto zone and 1 from advance that came out of pickups. The worst
would not break 3800 rpm on a mountain pass. Stock ignition is very good, bad rep is from
the last 25+ years of garbage service parts. Give it a try. Has fixed a lot of LAZY engines.

Take care,
Rick

 

[roccodart440]

What size converter would yall recommend for my setup? If I ended up going to trick flow heads one day would that same converter still be applicable? (which I believe have a smaller chamber volume and would raise my compression to about 10.2:1)

I will definitely be going to at least 3.73 or even 3.91s out back this winter.

It isn't a mail order item. You need to call a reputable convertor company and give them ALL of the most HONEST answers to their questions. A dyno sheet on your engine is best, but they can get you close without it.

For reference, I run a 4,500 on my mild 440 and it makes peak tq at 4,500. I used to run a 3,500 on my old engine, which made peak tq from 3900-4100. I can't imagine having less than a tight 3500 convertor in any performance street car.

 

[standup303]

It isn't a mail order item. You need to call a reputable convertor company and give them ALL of the more HONEST answers to their questions. A dyno sheet on your engine is best, but they can get you close without it.

For reference, I run a 4,500 on my mild 440 and it makes peak tq at 4,500. I used to run a 3,500 on my old engine, which made peak tq from 3900-4100. I can't imagine having less than a tight 3500 convertor in any performance street car.

I talked to a few manufacturers. Going to call Dynamic tomorrow. FTI recommended their street racer series 9.5” 3600 stall that I like. Boss Hog recommended their 3600-4000. Waiting on a few more replies to the build sheets I submitted too.

 

[BSB67]

I’ve lost track. Did we ever get cranking cylinder pressure, dyno time/tune or any other performance measurements?

I keeping going to the original post. The 440 underperforms a 360 in the same car, and a higher stall converter is the answer? Really? Is this where everyone is at? Sounds like perfume on a pig.

If I was a small block guy, I’d be having a field day with this thread.

 

[forphorty]

Going back to 1986. I was 20 yo, had just replaced the worn out 383 in my 71 RR with a 440. Low compression (TRW 2266 ) Comp 292, 906s, iron intake, 750 vs, headers. Definitely stronger on the bottom and midrange than the 383 but didn't seem much better on the top. Then a friend told me the spring in the secondary pod of the carb might be too heavy. Checked it. Black spring. The heaviest. My friend brought me a lighter spring from his assortment. I installed it. BIG improvement. Took it for my first time to the strip. Went 14.90s at 93. Next time at the track, uncorked the exhaust, went 14.14 at 102 , spinning the tires like crazy. My exhaust was 2 inch with long glasspacks. Long story short : I learned early on that if your carb ain't opening all the way and your exhaust is very restrictive ,you probably won't go very fast.

 

[standup303]

I’ve lost track. Did we ever get cranking cylinder pressure, dyno time/tune or any other performance measurements?

I keeping going to the original post. The 440 underperforms a 360 in the same car, and a higher stall converter is the answer? Really? Is this where everyone is at? Sounds like perfume on a pig.

If I was a small block guy, I’d be having a field day with this thread.

Not yet. It was a busy and cold weekend. Hoping to get compression test soon.

 

[standup303]

Going back to 1986. I was 20 yo, had just replaced the worn out 383 in my 71 RR with a 440. Low compression (TRW 2266 ) Comp 292, 906s, iron intake, 750 vs, headers. Definitely stronger on the bottom and midrange than the 383 but didn't seem much better on the top. Then a friend told me the spring in the secondary pod of the carb might be too heavy. Checked it. Black spring. The heaviest. My friend brought me a lighter spring from his assortment. I installed it. BIG improvement. Took it for my first time to the strip. Went 14.90s at 93. Next time at the track, uncorked the exhaust, went 14.14 at 102 , spinning the tires like crazy. My exhaust was 2 inch with long glasspacks. Long story short : I learned early on that if your carb ain't opening all the way and your exhaust is very restrictive ,you probably won't go very fast.

Thanks for the input. One thing I learned early on with these cars is throwing new parts at them doesn’t always solve the problem. I fight that battle all the time though!! New parts are so clean and shiny…

 

[Illahe]

Not yet. It was a busy and cold weekend. Hoping to get compression test soon.

For comparison, my sons 360 with 211@.050 9.5:1 motor will crank 160+ at 4700'. You want to be at 165-185psi to make decent power out of a streetable combination, at base altitude with a properly curved distributor. You may want to talk with Jim at Racer Brown about the best intake centerline with your compression and cam set up. After all its just a couple of gaskets away from "tuning." A spread-bore will help overcome your tall axle ratio with that camshaft as well.


Converts can get expensive, but Frank Lupo @ dynamic is one of the best. Cheap converters are like stepping on a hot marshmallow!

 

[PRH]

If the ultimate goal is to actually “make more power”, then I don’t think putting in a small cam is the answer.
For sure, before any parts get changed a cranking pressure test should be done. But we already expect the numbers to be on the low side.
Of course, If they’re way low, then more digging would be in order.
Sure, a small cam would improve response and drivability, but not really help in the “horsepower” dept.

The converter swap thought process addresses the engines lack of low speed TQ, and allows it to operate in an rpm range where it’s happier.

 

[fishmens67]

You want to be at 165-185psi to make decent power out of a streetable combination

Cranking pressure has very little to do with overall performance.

 

[273]

Cranking pressure tells nothing about VE% which is the true potential of each power stroke.

 

[Illahe]

Cranking pressure tells nothing about VE% which is the true potential of each power stroke.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

Its been my experience when the cranking pressure is low so is low end torque production...yet when the motor gest up on the cam it pulls hard.
Perhaps you can explain to me if its torque that gets your vehicle moving from a dead stop or hp?

 

[273]

Perhaps you can explain to me if its torque that gets your vehicle moving from a dead stop or hp?

There's start of a never ending argument lol

Hp is basically torque over time (rpm), Hp is the sum ability of torque and rpm. (torque x rpm / 5252 = hp)

The easiest way to see it is torque is per power stroke (so basically torque minus time, 0 rpms) and hp it the sum of torque over time (all the power strokes added up) RPM.

It isn't 100% correct but easiest way to look at. (Because as soon as the crank starts turning we've added time, rpm, so basically hp)

So torque one power stroke ain't gonna do much, hp the sum total of all the power strokes over time aka per minute or RPM is what moves your car.

So hp is what does everything you want an engine to do and hp is made from torque and rpm.

 

[318willrun]

Perhaps you can explain to me if its torque that gets your vehicle moving from a dead stop or hp?

gears. gears move the car

 

[273]

gears. gears move the car

Kind of, most gas engines main powerband is up higher in the rpms so it needs stall and gears to get you there.

 

[318willrun]

Kind of, most gas engines main powerband is up higher in the rpms so it needs stall and gears to get you there.

clutch cars do not have stalls. But even so, transmissions have gears. It's why a slant six in a D300 can drag a stone buck board up a mountain. Granny Low and a 4.56 Dana ?? LOL

 

[Illahe]

There's start of a never ending argument lol

Hp is basically torque over time (rpm), Hp is the sum ability of torque and rpm. (torque x rpm / 5252 = hp)

The easiest way to see it is torque is per power stroke (so basically torque minus time, 0 rpms) and hp it the sum of torque over time (all the power strokes added up) RPM.

It isn't 100% correct but easiest way to look at. (Because as soon as the crank starts turning we've added time, rpm, so basically hp)

So torque one power stroke ain't gonna do much, hp the sum total of all the power strokes over time aka per minute or RPM is what moves your car.

So hp is what does everything you want an engine to do and hp is made from torque and rpm.

Thank you for explaining the science behind the theory. Perhaps you can explain the science of going faster as torque is going down hill after the 5200 rpm. Say your peak torque is 475ft# at 4400 with your 440, yet at 6200 its 365. is the cars acceleration slowing proportional to the torque/rpm equation?

I agree with the gear theory to a point, especially for the 1/8th mile crowd, yet I ran 4.30's in the 1/4 and ran out of breath at 1000' truing about 6k on a hot day with 6000+ da. Swapped to 3.91 and went 3-4/10ths faster.

My perception, is the OP is looking to get as much out of his car with out dropping 2g on a converter and a set of gears.

 

[273]

clutch cars do not have stalls.

basically works like one, both accomplish the same goal.

But even so, transmissions have gears. It's why a slant six in a D300 can drag a stone buck board up a mountain. Granny Low and a 4.10 Dana ?? LOL

Never said they didn't, gears are to get you in the powerband.

Rock Crawlers have so much overall gear ratio the engines can spin a reasonable rpm at like 1 mph.

You can put all the gear ratio behind a 1hp engine it ain't gonna do much for you.

It take a certain amount of hp to do a certain task, gearing just there to turn the engine at the right rpm so the engine can make the needed power for the given road speed.

 

[318willrun]

basically works like one, both accomplish the same goal.

Never said they didn't, gears are to get you in the powerband.

Rock Crawlers have so much overall gear ratio the engines can spin a reasonable rpm at like 1 mph.

You can put all the gear ratio behind a 1hp engine it ain't gonna do much for you.

It take a certain amount of hp to do a certain task, gearing just there to turn the engine at the right rpm so the engine can make the needed power for the given road speed.

1 hp Briggs and Straton will move plenty with gears, even a lawn tractor, mini bike, and such. With enough gearing, it will also move a car, like a clock but it will move it. Or on a hoist lift the car off the ground. 800 hp/880 ft trq won't move a lawn mower without a gear. It's why they roar on engine stands and nothing happens.