Dave999
Well-Known Member
Last edited:
First step to restoring my 1974 Duster; Front End rebuild (coilovers needed?)
- Thread starter okan74duster
- Start date
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okan74duster
Well-Known Member
I just ordered from your website. It gave me an error when trying to ship to an APO (says you can only ship within CONUS) which is disappointing because shipping to an APO basically is the same as shipping CONUS via USPS.
I did cop these parts though;
LCARMOPADLX
FEKSSDOD732
TOR4820PA
SR14385
PIT18760
SWAY 596
TUBAMOPA
Hope that will do it
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
Sorry for necro-ing this thread, just waited til the car actually got here. Havent put her on the lift just yet because I came down with a plague, and having this car here required a lot of bureaucratic processes that needed to be navigated to get this car legal.
Basically bought the parts that this here manual says. Which I got from PST, pretty much. Except the center link.
Basically bought the parts that this here manual says. Which I got from PST, pretty much. Except the center link.
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
This is the order list
Your order is in process and should ship shortly.
Thanks
James From
PST
Thanks
James From
PST
The coil-over suspensions have not proven to give any advantage except to the vendor that sells them. They get your money, you get a system that looks pretty but performs no better.
You can go fast with a stock based system.
Uhhh.....
I just saved you almost $1260.
You don't need all of those things.
You don't need the lower control arm kit unless yours are damaged or rusted.
Adjustable strut rods???? No. Try urethane strut rod bushings.
Pitman arm? Those rarely go bad.
Those upper control arms have Heim joints...They are terrible for the street. Noisy and harsh riding.
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
OH ****!
What about Bilstein shocks?
LCA was recommended by a friend of mine. Home garage mechanic but he did look at it and he is experienced on old mopars.
The problem with this is that it handles like **** and the front end shakes at like 50mph. Like I have to almost white knuckle it to keep it stable.
I assess these parts based on the threads here and the Haynes manual (pic above)
Bilstein shocks are excellent.
All those things that you listed are good quality but not always necessary.
I may be biased though since where I live, suspension stuff doesn't usually get rusty.
The lower control arm parts are usually fine when cleaned up and reused. The stiffening plates can be bought individually but all that hardware in the kit is likely not needed.
I understand that you want a good handling car.
I am a strong believer in the solid and reliable performance that you can get with a proper rebuild using fairly stock parts.
This car uses larger torsion bars, bigger sway bars, Bilstein shocks.....
No adjustable strut rods here.
Offset upper control arm bushings:
...... in STOCK B body upper control arms.......
......and a GOOD alignment. I got over 5 degrees of caster this way. This car tracks straight. No shakes, no wandering.
All those things that you listed are good quality but not always necessary.
I may be biased though since where I live, suspension stuff doesn't usually get rusty.
The lower control arm parts are usually fine when cleaned up and reused. The stiffening plates can be bought individually but all that hardware in the kit is likely not needed.
I understand that you want a good handling car.
I am a strong believer in the solid and reliable performance that you can get with a proper rebuild using fairly stock parts.
This car uses larger torsion bars, bigger sway bars, Bilstein shocks.....
No adjustable strut rods here.
Offset upper control arm bushings:
...... in STOCK B body upper control arms.......
......and a GOOD alignment. I got over 5 degrees of caster this way. This car tracks straight. No shakes, no wandering.
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
Nice car! And thank you.
I just researched those parts on this forum too, adjustable vs fixed strut rods etc. before I added them to the basket
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
I strongly disagree on not using adjustable strut rods if he's going with poly LCA bushings. I've tried the latter without the former and it didn't work well (dynamic alignment issues). @72bluNblu can give more details on this. Basically comes down to the dimensions for factory strut rods being sh** and having less-compliant bushings in the lower arms makes it worse. Either do poly LCA bushings and adjustable strut rods together or go with rubber LCA bushings and keep the stock strut rods.
Otherwise I agree, tubular UCAs are nice but those ones are overpriced for what you get and Heim joints on that specific component for a street car are a bad idea. Also check current Pitman arm to make sure it is indeed still good.
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
I had to double check my order, the LCA indeed have poly bushings
In my research in this forum, poly bushings do not seem to be the most favorable to what I am trying to turn this car into (as reliable as I can make it, daily driver)
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
I've had poly LCA bushings in my Duster for about 8 years and 15,000 miles. I've also had adjustable strut rods for about 6 years and 10,000 miles. They're just as reliable as rubber, more so if you lubricate them once in a while. It's unfortunately a controversial subject because some guys have had bad experiences with them due to incorrect installation or other issues causing them to fail, then they form very strong opinions about them and tell everyone else their car will fall apart if they don't use factory-type rubber bushings.
For what it's worth I've also taken my Duster to several track day/autocross events and I beat the hell out of it on a regular basis. No issues with suspension parts failing or alignment changing over time, aside from some cheap shock absorbers blowing out once in a while.
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
Yup read that. And it is actually what deterred me from Poly. It seems very particular/specific in installation and me being a beginner, it may not be the best option. But for LCA I think I can figure it out. How does it ride? Did I overdo this? I dropped off my car to get aligned and managed to snap a few pics of the suspension (that squeaks when I make a left turn) also my rear brakes squeals when I am driving.
BTW I still have drums on the rear so I'll have to figure that out. (conversion to disc, but I only have 11" wheels, not a lot of converter kits)
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
That is very clean.
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Swimming up stream here but I prefer coil overs for sure. There is a bunch of different ways to do this and as you have already seen some passionate opinions @HemiDenny is a great vendor (HDK) on here as well as the guys already posting. In the end you have got some great advice from a bunch of knowledgeable folks. I would suggest researching the countless threads on this topic and get a broad view of the subject. A bit of research time and effort is well spent when it comes to front ends. I am biased as I race and have several HDK components on multiple rigs. By same token I race against a bunch of guys that do not utilize coil overs. Do you guy, and have fun be safe!
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
Honestly for me working with factory-style rubber LCA bushings is more of a pain than going with poly. As long as the poly bushings fit snugly into the outer shell and the LCA pins fit snugly into the bushings you're good to go, also be sure to use plenty of the special silicone grease for polyurethane bushings. It's really not that difficult if you understand how they're supposed to work. If there's anywhere in the front suspension where poly is most beneficial it's in the lower control arms. I still have offset rubber bushings in my stock upper arms like @Kern Dog mentioned but they're pretty beat-up after ~10 years and 30,000 miles of hard driving. I'll be going to QA1 or SPC tubular UCAs from @BergmanAutoCraft after upgrading my brakes and shocks. I'll also likely upgrade to his Delrin LCA bushings and swap out the current hollow greaseable LCA pins for solid ones.
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
So this is how it looks on the driver side. The UCA does seem ok...
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
Ok I think I will do the bushings (both UCA and LCA)instead of replacing the upper arms and buying the LCA kit. This car would not see the track any time soon.
Edit: Any recommendations on the bushings?
And thank you!
okan74duster
Well-Known Member
Yep I've been reading. There are A LOT of information here, its a bit overwhelming. Sometimes people would argue for 3 thread pages and I have yet to answer the question I was reading the thread for LOL
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
For the offset UCA bushings look for Moog K-7103 Moog Chassis Parts K7103 Moog Control Arm Bushings | Summit Racing
The rubber LCA bushings already come in the Super Front End Kit from PST but if you go that route then don't bother with adjustable strut rods. They also sell the LCA pivot pins and poly bushings if you do want to go that way and also use adjustable strut rods.
Poly strut rod bushings are a bad idea. The problem is the strut rod works in two different planes, keeping the LCA located fore/aft under acceleration and braking but also tracking the LCA up and down as it travels. In the fore aft direction you want the strut rod bushings to be stiff, so poly seems like a good idea. But then as the strut rod moves up and down, you want the strut rod bushings to be soft, to prevent binding up the LCA travel, and in that area poly is a bad idea.
Adjustable strut rods on the other hand are just about perfect- the allow very little fore/aft movement, but travel freely up and down as long as they've been adjusted to the proper length to prevent any binding. In the factory suspension, the strut rods allow the most slop out of any of the other components. It's honestly a significant benefit to go adjustable strut rods even with rubber control arm bushings.
As for the lower bushing kit, if the OP doesn't know exactly when the front suspension was rebuilt I can almost guarantee the bushings are shot and need to be replaced.
I agree on the UCA's, you don't want heims there on a street car. But the stock UCA's are very limited for positive caster even with the offset bushings installed. For a driver what you can get from the offset bushings is ok, for a handling car I wouldn't bother and would go straight to a tubular UCA to provide the additional caster.
The only advantage to a coil over front end is the rack and pinion and header clearance. Beyond that it's all cons- requires chassis stiffening to work properly with the Mopar chassis because it doesn't load the chassis in the way it was designed, does not improve suspension geometry vs updated torsion bar suspension, depending on the kit can limit turn angle, depending on the kit can limit suspension travel, etc.
You would want the K7103's, and installed to maximize positive caster. Not the way the directions show.
You mention the car is for daily driving, what are you going to be running for rims and tires? If you stick with sizes fairly close to stock in the front the offset bushings and factory UCA's will be fine, but if you plan on going to larger diameter wheels and wider front tires you might just want to get tubular UCA's with more caster built in. The wider the front tire gets the more positive caster you'll want. My Duster is a bit of an extreme example with 275/35/18's up front, but I run +6.5° of caster to counter the tendency of the wide front wheels tracking about where they want. With the offset bushings about the most you can count on getting is ~+3.5°. Some have gotten more, but some have had a hard time even getting to +3.5°, it depends a lot on ride height and how the car is set up for rake. If you do want to have more +caster than that, you will need tubular UCA's. And as I said before, I would choose a set that has bushings vs heims.
The poly LCA bushings work just fine, and they're actually easier to install most of the time. The factory rubber LCA bushings need to have the outer shell pressed out of the LCA to replace them, it can be a bit of an ordeal depending on your equipment. Most the the poly LCA bushings reuse the original outer bushing shell. The only caveat is that you do have to check to make sure that the poly LCA bushings fit with a TIGHT slip fit into the outer shell. If they don't because the shell is too big, worn, etc then you still need to replace the outer shell to get a good fit. Same for the LCA pin, it has to fit tightly into the poly LCA bushing. If it does not, you need to find one that does.
I always recommend adjustable strut rods and greasable LCA pins when using poly bushings, just so that everything can be adjusted properly and lubricated later if necessary because of the way that the poly LCA bushings work, they rotate on the pins so they need grease. Installed properly the poly LCA bushings will last the life of your suspension and minimize deflection, so you get less slop in the suspension travel. They're fine on a daily, I still use my car as a daily for the majority of the year and I had no issues with the poly bushings or adjustable strut rods. I've put over 100k miles on adjustable strut rods between my Challenger and my Duster, the heim at that location sees very little load and I haven't had any issues with them wearing out like I have at the UCA.
16,000 miles on my urethane strut rod bushings with no problems but you say they are bad??
Limiting suspension movement?
Maybe if I had pencil thin torsion bars and worn out shocks, that would be a problem.
I don't.
The OPs desire for the 1.03 torsion bars and Bilstein shocks would mean that the range of suspension travel in normal driving will be reduced anyway.
Some people drive a worn out Mopar and think that they have to reinvent the wheel to get it to drive right. I don't agree with that. I see some products advertised that look and perform nice but are often not needed....especially when the owner just wants a fun, safe cruiser.
Urethane strut rod bushings in a car that also has bigger torsion bars and better shocks are not a problem. I will agree that adjustable strut rods would allow more free movement but is the cost worth it? What gains are you getting for that money? It may not be any faster ,more stable, comfortable or quieter. Some tout the increased caster you can get but that is at the expense of increased lower control arm bushing wear due to distortion of that bushing from the strut rod pulling the LCA forward and out of square.
There comes a point where you are spending money for parts that provide no measurable benefit. Some call that the point of diminishing returns.
Limiting suspension movement?
Maybe if I had pencil thin torsion bars and worn out shocks, that would be a problem.
I don't.
The OPs desire for the 1.03 torsion bars and Bilstein shocks would mean that the range of suspension travel in normal driving will be reduced anyway.
Some people drive a worn out Mopar and think that they have to reinvent the wheel to get it to drive right. I don't agree with that. I see some products advertised that look and perform nice but are often not needed....especially when the owner just wants a fun, safe cruiser.
Urethane strut rod bushings in a car that also has bigger torsion bars and better shocks are not a problem. I will agree that adjustable strut rods would allow more free movement but is the cost worth it? What gains are you getting for that money? It may not be any faster ,more stable, comfortable or quieter. Some tout the increased caster you can get but that is at the expense of increased lower control arm bushing wear due to distortion of that bushing from the strut rod pulling the LCA forward and out of square.
There comes a point where you are spending money for parts that provide no measurable benefit. Some call that the point of diminishing returns.
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As 72BNB pointed out my application Is for racing with no turns! Only time I need to turn is getting on the trailer! Hah! Frame is very stiff between roll bar and frame connectors underneath. I place the Jack behind front tire to change the tire and both front and rear come up off the ground. As a result the coil overs allow me to change and adapt to track conditions etc on the fly if you will. I can assure you 72BNB has forgotten more about front end geometry than most of us will ever know. Read his post carefully and many of the other threads he has posted in. Wealth of knowledge right there.
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