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Bewy

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Some time back in another thread on this forum, I mentioned that GM used MVA on production cars. You said I would to see 'that '. Now you can with the help of my son in law.
On the FBBO forum, in the Fuel & Air category, there is a thread titled '440 still idles with the screws turned in'.
Posts #81 & 82 show the relevant pages from the FSM.
 
MVA = manifold vacuum advance?

If so it is posable that there is a spring keeping advance high and uses manifold vacuum to counter the spring?

At idle, high manifold vacuum = no advance
Off idle, vacuum would lower = spring would advance the timming
Wide open throttle = lower manifold vacuum = spring advances timming to full advance

Just guessing here.
 
MVA is manifold vac advance.
PVA is ported vac advance.

With MVA, at idle, the vac advance kicks in and is part of the idle timing. To make this work consistently, you often have to 'pedal' the car just as it starts (when cold) to get the vac advance to help 'kick in' and stabilize.

With PVA, there's no vac at the port at idle, so the vac can doesn't add any advance at idle. Only at part throttle cruise.

My understanding is that PVA helps keep the exhaust hot to help cats burn better and sooner. MVA works good except with bigger cams and lower idle vacuum. The low vacuum issue can be overcome by 'blipping' the engine after start to help get the idle timing up and 'on the can' quicker.

In my experience, this all holds pretty true but there are several considerations. I have a true 11:1 ford FE with dual quads and a pretty moderate cam. I've run it with 8 degrees of idle timing, and as much as 26 - while keeping the 'all in' around 38, with and without the vacuum canister. Lower idle timing equated to super hot exhaust pipes, and ever-rising coolant temps when idling. Was fine at cruise though. The lower idle timing also warmed the engine faster after starting. The exhaust had a definite odor, which sucked. There was also a lack of power, even with super soft advance springs because I was starting so far 'down in the hole' with the timing curve. After 3k it's all the same, but under 3k the lower timing was a dog. Sounded mean though.

With the super-high idle timing (16 deg static initial, 10 degrees vac, 750 rpm) the engine takes forever to warm up. I can drive for near 20 minute before the thermostat opens. The exhaust pipes are much cooler, less heat in the engine bay, engine is a bit snappier off-idle but can be tougher to feather the clutch. The issue I have is that the throttle gets cracked, the vac drops, the timing drops, and then I load the engine with the clutch and it wants to stumble and die. Once warm, it's a non-issue, but it can take upwards of 30 mins for the engine to warm up completely. The engine also sounds super tame, and much quieter at idle. The difference between 8 degrees @ idle, and 26 @ idle was the difference between setting off car alarms idling down the road vs being able to converse with my passenger. It was that significant.

With my dart, I've seen similar but not the same. I run an Fitech EFI with timing control. The engine is a 408 with around ~250 duration @.050, and 3.91 rear gears with a 4spd. I've tried everything from 12 degrees idle timing to 45 degrees. The higher the idle timing, the more the clutch wants to kill the engine. Too low though, and it stinks to high heaven and gets way too hot too fast. With the Fitech I can set idle timing, and then timing at 1100 rpm for both high and low vac situations. I've found the 'best' to be an idle timing of around 25 degrees with a WOT 1100 rpm setting of around 16-18. This keeps the engine from trying to stumble when creeping on the clutch, or when you let the clutch out a little too quick (even with the 3.91s). I've not noticed the same impact to temperatures with the dart though vs the FE. I'm fairly certain it's because my dart uses a clutch fan, and the fan/shroud combo sucks - if I open the hood all is well, but with it closed my air recirculates out from under the car back into the radiator. Driving down my gravel road, I actually blow a dust cloud forward (yes, the fan turns the right direction). Above 15mph, no issue.
 
Dana,
Post #4. The VA unit has a spring & rubber diaphragm inside, just like a Holley p/valve. Adj VA units that an adjustable plate that compresses [ or releases the spring ] to counteract engine [ manifold ] vacuum. Vacuum is high at idle, so idea is that spring is fully compressed against the stop, adding extra timing to the static timing. Example, if static init is 6* & MVA adds 20*, engine will idle @ 26*. This is exactly how my GTO was delivered from the factory, idling with 26*. Most adj VA units can add up to 30*. You can buy a stop plate for GM dists that limits the total travel of the actuator arm; with Ch you have to fabricate a stop. The spring adjustment is to ensure steady timing at idle, & in gear. The #1 cause of comments like 'MVA didn't work for me' is not MVA, it is the setting up. Using a non-adj factory VA will have too stiff a spring & timing will be erratic; similarly, using an adj VA unit with the spring adjusted too stiff does the same. The car has to be placed in gear, at idle, to make sure the timing remains steady. MVA can add 1-3" of vacuum at idle because the extra timing burns the fuel more efficiently. Excellent example of this in post #5 where the engine runs cooler with more idle timing; engine is using the timing more efficiently, sees less load, runs cooler.

VA goes to zero @ WOT. Timing at WOT will be the addition of the static timing plus the centri curve inside the dist. Above example, 6*init + 30* centri, engine has 36* @ WOT.
Hope this explains it better.
 
MVA is manifold vac advance.
PVA is ported vac advance.

With MVA, at idle, the vac advance kicks in and is part of the idle timing. To make this work consistently, you often have to 'pedal' the car just as it starts (when cold) to get the vac advance to help 'kick in' and stabilize.

With PVA, there's no vac at the port at idle, so the vac can doesn't add any advance at idle. Only at part throttle cruise.

My understanding is that PVA helps keep the exhaust hot to help cats burn better and sooner. MVA works good except with bigger cams and lower idle vacuum. The low vacuum issue can be overcome by 'blipping' the engine after start to help get the idle timing up and 'on the can' quicker.

In my experience, this all holds pretty true but there are several considerations. I have a true 11:1 ford FE with dual quads and a pretty moderate cam. I've run it with 8 degrees of idle timing, and as much as 26 - while keeping the 'all in' around 38, with and without the vacuum canister. Lower idle timing equated to super hot exhaust pipes, and ever-rising coolant temps when idling. Was fine at cruise though. The lower idle timing also warmed the engine faster after starting. The exhaust had a definite odor, which sucked. There was also a lack of power, even with super soft advance springs because I was starting so far 'down in the hole' with the timing curve. After 3k it's all the same, but under 3k the lower timing was a dog. Sounded mean though.

With the super-high idle timing (16 deg static initial, 10 degrees vac, 750 rpm) the engine takes forever to warm up. I can drive for near 20 minute before the thermostat opens. The exhaust pipes are much cooler, less heat in the engine bay, engine is a bit snappier off-idle but can be tougher to feather the clutch. The issue I have is that the throttle gets cracked, the vac drops, the timing drops, and then I load the engine with the clutch and it wants to stumble and die. Once warm, it's a non-issue, but it can take upwards of 30 mins for the engine to warm up completely. The engine also sounds super tame, and much quieter at idle. The difference between 8 degrees @ idle, and 26 @ idle was the difference between setting off car alarms idling down the road vs being able to converse with my passenger. It was that significant.

With my dart, I've seen similar but not the same. I run an Fitech EFI with timing control. The engine is a 408 with around ~250 duration @.050, and 3.91 rear gears with a 4spd. I've tried everything from 12 degrees idle timing to 45 degrees. The higher the idle timing, the more the clutch wants to kill the engine. Too low though, and it stinks to high heaven and gets way too hot too fast. With the Fitech I can set idle timing, and then timing at 1100 rpm for both high and low vac situations. I've found the 'best' to be an idle timing of around 25 degrees with a WOT 1100 rpm setting of around 16-18. This keeps the engine from trying to stumble when creeping on the clutch, or when you let the clutch out a little too quick (even with the 3.91s). I've not noticed the same impact to temperatures with the dart though vs the FE. I'm fairly certain it's because my dart uses a clutch fan, and the fan/shroud combo sucks - if I open the hood all is well, but with it closed my air recirculates out from under the car back into the radiator. Driving down my gravel road, I actually blow a dust cloud forward (yes, the fan turns the right direction). Above 15mph, no issue.
Man, that Ford sounds like a Beast, Bro...
 
Thanks. been working on stuff but will get back to this more at some point.

For those wondering, I asked Geoff about the Pontiac shop manual specs, although I can get them from the library.
So looking at the Chiltons, it shows the timing at idle should be 6* BTDC, and looking at the screen shots from the '65 Pontiac FSM, the vacuum advance can add 20* degrees with roughly 15 to 16 "Hg. While it adds nothing under 8-10"Hg. With a factory cam, 15"hg at idle is not unreasonable, and certainly even a hot factory cam should be making 12-14 in Hg.

I would have thought the idle burns were quicker than that, but thats the differences in design. Real interesting solution to emissions, but also really surprising to see that sort of external device in '65. Chrysler did the same type of thing but built it into the mechanical advance of vehicles that needed CAP.
 
Man, that Ford sounds like a Beast, Bro...

Not really. Small heads, smallish cam. Eventually trick flow heads will come available for them again and then my intake and headers will actually have matching ports. Right now, not so much. It was built as a cruiser, but the guy knew not to skimp on compression. It doesn't rev very high (out of breath by 5500) but pulls hard in the middle. Light car, 3.55 gears, but a wide ratio toploader so first gear is too high. It idles at something like 15mph.

It's the first engine I've had that actually responds the way it's supposed to though. It's got side pipes (ffr cobra), and when the ignition was retarded they let you know it! Buddy of mine really fried his ankle on one of them as a result. Pretty sure he didn't even touch it. Since then, with the advanced curve, the side pipes are hot but won't blister you from a distance.
 
Cool deal! My Ironhead Sportster sends flames out the pipes, sometimes. But it's dialed in good... hmm now ya got me thinking... lol
 
Iron,
I had a few Harleys including a Sportster. Not sure about the ign system on the S but I also had a Knucklehead. It had an ign advance/retard set up on the left twist grip. You retarded it for starting & then advanced it once the engine was running.
 
Iron,
I had a few Harleys including a Sportster. Not sure about the ign system on the S but I also had a Knucklehead. It had an ign advance/retard set up on the left twist grip. You retarded it for starting & then advanced it once the engine was running.
Man, always wanted a Knuckle...
 
Well, with an S@S B and .565 cams.......
Here is a pix of my (mine is on right Brothers on left) shovel. My middle Brother and I rode Shovels till he died. Oldest Brother still rocks a knuckle. SS carb first thing that goes on,cam right after that!

927B350D-35A9-4E2B-8891-3FDBD67C2C35.jpeg
 
Nice! Some tuff ol bikes! Sorry about Your Brother..
Thanks! We were younger then. On mandatory runs me and older Brother were both still riding ridgids, we would just kind of fall off our sleds and lay on ground till we could move our legs. Then the ten minute warning was issued and we would look at each other and grimace, throw our legs over and kick em over. On to next stop!
 
Here is pix of my older Brother (still alive) rocking his knuckle and my Middle Brother (RIP) on his shovel. We both ran dual plugs bored out, fire breathing shovels! PR, if you want some details on the knuckle send me a PM. A bunch of us put it together and gave it to my older Brother. My apologies Mattax for the derail!

A91A9DAF-DCEE-475A-BF6D-7724346ED79F.jpeg


1C793B81-2008-46EC-BD73-9966AEBCE096.jpeg
 
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