Forging, blacksmithing

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bighammer

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Any members here into blacksmithing? I've wanted to learn this craft for years. I made a couple knifes once, years ago, but I want to do some actual forging. It's such a cool trade. I'm interested in finding a good website for beginners, lol. Any suggestions?
 
this isn't forging per se. but a few years ago I decided to start to learn " bit and spur making". you know , read all I can, ask questions, and just start to do it! the spurs that I make are shanks welded to the band. old spurs we made out of one square bar. now this is quite a process. and takes much skill and tools (trip hammer for instance). those I don't attempt!
in my quest for knowledge, I did meet some guys that are into knife making, and some blacksmithing. you are right, its almost a lost art and very facinating. I've had some horses shod with hot shoes, custom made out of stock. but that just hits the tip of blacksmithing.
look on the net and you will find a blacksmithing site. and go from there. find a mentor. good luck
 
I have an old school friend who is a farrier in a neighboring county. He also does blacksmithing and forge work. If you're on Facebook, I can hook you up with him.

I don't know anything about it, as he is also a corrections officer and stays pretty busy so we don't talk frequently.
 
The stuff that I want to forge, I don't trust myself with it in use, so I've left it all alone.

I looked into buying a pyrometer and setting up a ceramic brick kiln for doing some of this work, particularly for heat treating some things, but not necessarily forging (pressurizing).

I am actually casting medium strength metal parts, which can be used for certain things.

Knife forging can be done with an anvil and a hammer, but doing things that have specific shapes beyond basic or arbitrary shapes, like knives or some other hand tools, things like cylinders, require multi directional pressure points, simultaneously and also require ammonia gas chamber treating with monitored levels, in order to achieve uniform strength.

The art is in the quality of the metal and keeping it free of contaminants. I've seen some forged tools from Harbor Freight shatter, because of carbon contamination in the steel.

My problem with doing this, beyond perhaps a folded blade from high carbon steel, is that the tooling required to make specific parts only makes sense to set up, if you plan on going into production.

You can get some shaping work done with dies on rods held between a trip hammer and the working metal, but it is usually best done with a helper to run the dies and someone else moving the working metal. It is very involved.

Even when I'm casting stuff, it requires a reasonable amount of monitoring and depending on what I'm using the cast part for, requires specific types of ingot metals used for safety and reliability.

If you're going to try it with knives or other blades, set up a small ceramic brick kiln and start with a 150-250lb anvil to see if you want to move up to a trip hammer later. You can also use the same oven for glass working, if you've ever thought about that.

Be sure to get a decent heat suit and appropriate face shielded helmet, when working around that much heat.
 
Cool, thanks guys. I've been doing quite a bit of reading up on the topic since posting this yesterday. I'm just really fascinated by it. I'm probably going to start small, forging knives is what I'm mostly interested in.

Rob, I'm not on Facebook, but thanks for the suggestion. Dave, sounds like you've done a fair amount of metalwork. Thanks for your info. And thanks for the link 64dartGTinAz, I didn't know about the NW blacksmith assoc. Barbee6043 post up some pics of your hand made Spurs, man! I'd love to see em.

Something else I'd like to know along these lines, is how did them old blacksmiths treat their forgings to protect the metal? I was told once that they had some mix of something with bees wax that they would rub onto their project (?) but that would eventually wear off. Did they somehow 'blacken' the metal to make it more protected from corrosion?
 
Not sure what kind of abuse their tools landed, honestly. Most hand tools, when used properly, won't fail. The adjustable wrench that I saw fail had a flaw at a critical spot in the wrench, right where the head met the upper jaw. It would have probably survived elsewhere in the part. Solid carbon deposits aren't the issue, so much as the heat that they cause and change the elasticity of the metal on a molecular level around that spot and create a tension area, like tempered glass that is heated in one spot. It won't break until it begins to cool, because it shrinks, unevenly.

If the dross was removed and the metal kept clean from the original pour, with a good flux, even something like baking soda would help degas and also float any charred junk to the top to have been poured or spooned off with the rest of the dross, I think they probably did something simple like that.

If you really want to put an inexpensive and nice finish on your knives, right before final hone sharpening, look into setting up for parkerizing.

They do this to camshafts and it is a common dark finish on high carbon steel blade shanks to keep them from rusting. gun bodies and barrels often have this finish as well and gives the color to the look of what is known as gun metal.

It can be done on your stovetop with manganese phosphate solution in a stainless steel pot of boiling water. It is not very toxic, either, because you are just dealing with metals. It can be oiled after and takes very nicely to it, or left matte.

There are lots of places that make parkerizing solutions or you can make your own. Google it. I'm likely going to finish some of the steel stuff that I'm working on with this method, along with my anodizing, when I get my alumuminum parts in a finishing stage. I really want to do some parkerizing on a few things, though.
 
As for protective coating, I'm not sure when parkerizing was developed, but most of the antique tools that I have obtained, like a lot of my Ford wrenches, were very rusted.

I think people just used them and kept them out of the weather, or painted them with a black enamel, brushed on, if needed.

I use straight white vinegar to de-rust anything that I do not want to media blast, like the inside of oil pans or anything that will see fluid use. Media blasting, even with glass bead, will impregnate the very surface of the metal with the media and it can't be removed without another form of abrasive, like a steel wire wheel or brass wheel.

Things like silica can eventually come loose and prematurely wear on surfaces that see the same fluid. It isn't enough to cause failure of the parts, but it does shorten the lifespan of things like bronze or brass bushings and bearings, especially aluminum bearings if you have a part soda blasted. Never have the inside of any engine part, like a valve cover or oil pan soda blasted, because it can corrode the aluminum on the inside of the piston skirts, over time.

Vinegar with some steel brushing or even heavy nylon brushing can de-rust things that have antique finishes on parts of them, like raised areas that are machine surfaces with hammer tone paints in the cavities and lower areas, clasps on old tool chests, etc, and it will not damage the painted areas.

So if you've got an old tool or part that has decent paint that can hand polish up and you want the bare metal to be clean, use vinegar on the entire part. I put a little mineral oil on a rag and wipe the bare metal tools I have, like my larger measuring calipers and some of the machinery I use. I live in a dry climate, but it really helps keep things like dust from etching on my machine wheels and dies.
 
When I asked Casey about it.....how he learned and all he just said "I bought the **** and just started doin it" LOL That kinda sums him up, though.
 
Another finish that I know people like, which also looks great on polished and smooth finished metals that might look very nice on your knives would be rust bluing.

There is an expedited version of this old method, that does not take as long as the oxidation process of real rust bluing and is done in a very similar fashion to parkerizing.

Rust bluing-

finishes_rust_blue.jpg


Parkerizing -

1bc08cd3c47345954bef6bc982198460.jpg


You can get bluing and parkerizing solutions online and do it all at home. Its all just a phosphorus acid etch process followed by a sealing process that involves boiling water. Anodizing aluminum is very similar, with the use of sulfuric acid water mix. You can even use food coloring to dye it, even partially in fades like an easter egg before boil sealing it. I'd imagine that the same could be done with parkerizing and rust bluing. You have to degrease and clean the parts well, so you could technically mask the coating from places, if you wanted to, or do multiple layers, with some masked, so some of it shows up darker/ lighter for patterns or logos, etc.
 
Great info Dave. I've never heard of Parkerizing, I'll check it out. The rifle blueing, now that's something I didn't even think of, but it would be interesting to try it on a blade. I can't tell which one I like better, they're both so different, but very cool. Thanks for all the effort you put into your replies!
 
Try not to faint when you see what people want for anvils and swage blocks - you thought Mopars were expensive! ;-)
 
you will see anvils sell at farm sales around here. NO bargains to be had. seems to bring around $2 per pound. a 125 anvil will bring like $ 250-275 ! I use a ft long piece of railroad track for my stuff. I never could afford the friggin anvil!!! LOL
I will try to get some pics of spurs and bits I've made. most have been sold. trainers and cowboys tend to have handmade rusty spurs, usually some nickel trim, ( people call it nickel silver but it has NO silver in it, just an alloy), a little hand engraving on the nickel. others folks, the show folks, want a spur that has been blued. this color changes over time like fashion. you can blue like gun bluing, it can be done in brown ( outdated), a silver bluing is popular, gives it a more natural look.
some people LOVE working with metal and the whole forging process. a dying art and tons of stuff to learn! fascinating to me.
one problem with selling on feebay is crooked people that guy cheap Chinese crap spurs, solder a little trim on and try to sell as quality handmade spurs.
pick up each and you will know. there is a big difference.
there is a local spur maker. he has been doing it as his only bisiness since probably mid 80's. he has spent a lifetime buiding this trade. he goes to the NCHA futurity, sets up in trade building. a lot easier to make a living charging $6000 for a header install or body/paint job!!??? LOL
 
Every once in a while I will have to make a odd tool at work. Usually all I am doing is heating up metal and hammering it and bending it into the shape that I need. I wouldn't really call this forging or black smithing but it is fun. We have a metal work bench with a steel surface that is about three inches thick that I hammer on.

One day I would like to really get into it but right now I just don't have time for another hobby.
 
I'd say it's close to 200 lbs, but I haven't been able to read any stampings in it. It doesn't look to be in very good condition, but should suffice for what I need.
 

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I'd say it's close to 200 lbs, but I haven't been able to read any stampings in it. It doesn't look to be in very good condition, but should suffice for what I need.

There is usually some blacksmithing going on at the annual Steam-Up at Antique Powerland (Brooks, OR north of Salem) It happens the last weekend in July and first weekend in August.
Several years ago there were blacksmith demonstrations going on at Ft Vancouver in Vancouver, not BC, Washington, not DC. Your pic shows the hammer and anvil. If you need a forge, this site has some ideas.

ronreil.abana.org

Then like RRR says, just do it ....
 
Sweet, I've always wanted to get over to the Steam-Up in Brooks. Now I have more reason to make plans on going.
 
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