Frame or chassis options for A bodies
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NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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If you are unable to test and set up your suspension properly, you can just order up the Hotchkiss TVS suspension kit for like 2k. I don't see any of the coilover rack and pinion setups that cheap. Plus with all of the aftermarket kits, you still need to replace the rear with a kit also. Id bet you would be at 10k by the time you bought all that stuff.Those type of cars are exactly the type being discussed, and NONE of them have been proven to be any faster than a properly setup leaf/torsion bar car.....
lilcuda
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Just to clarify - It wasn't me driving when the car went 160 mph @ portland. That was the guy who built it, Tim Werner.
Anyone considering building an A body for handling should use it as a template. I have yet to push the car really hard, but it is really fast and handles extremely well. It goes exactly where you point it. You can find tons of info on the car by searching "Tim Werner Valiant" or "427 Valiant". I have some pages bookmarked on my other computer. I'll post them when I get a chance.
I will say that if you go down the same road with your car, expect a harsh, noisy ride. The Valiant is street legal, but not a good daily driver.
The same goes for a double throw down drag set-up. It is a challenge to build them as both a street and race car.......always seems to be a some kind of trade off.
JoesEdge
Well-Known Member
This has been one heck of an informative thread. I was lucky enough to get some money back from Uncle Sam this year. Some of the funds I put away for a rainy day and the rest, well, the rest I'm spending on April. She needs a new interior and a new suspension.
I've been researching this for awhile and talked to 72bluNblu because he has the type of setup that I'm hoping to achieve. Well, at least close to it.
So far, this is what I have on my list for my '74 Duster...
Moog Stuff @ Rock Auto
K7086 Idler Arm
K783 Lower Ball Joint - Left
K781 Lower Ball Joint - Right
ES355RL Tie Rod End - Inner (11/16") x 2
ES352R Tie Rod End - Outter (11/16") x 2
Note: Items like upper ball joints and upper control arm bushings omitted because they are included in tubular upper control arms
PST Parts
PST Bilstein Shocks - Front
PST Lower Control Arm Rebuild Kit - Rubber
PST Tie Rod Sleeves 11/16 inch
PST Torsion Bar Master Kit - 1.03 inch
Reilly Motorsports Parts
Reilly Motorsport Strut Rods
Reilly Motorsport Upper Control Arms - Rod Ends
Hellwig Parts @ Summit
55905 Hellwig 1 1/8 inch Sway Bar - Tubular
My alternatives in upper control arms and torsion bars were from Firm Feel, but seems like PST and Reilly Motorsports is more cost effective. I would have gone with the 1.06 inch Firm Feel torsion bars.
You'll probably note that I haven't addressed the rear. I figured that could be phase 2 when I save up some more money. I also want to add sub frame connectors down the line as well.
Anyway... Let me know what you think of that combination.
Pricing: $1640.00
Note: That's for everything and that's not including the 10% FABO members discount at PST or the 5% discount at Rock Auto (until March 20th 2016)
I've been researching this for awhile and talked to 72bluNblu because he has the type of setup that I'm hoping to achieve. Well, at least close to it.
So far, this is what I have on my list for my '74 Duster...
Moog Stuff @ Rock Auto
K7086 Idler Arm
K783 Lower Ball Joint - Left
K781 Lower Ball Joint - Right
ES355RL Tie Rod End - Inner (11/16") x 2
ES352R Tie Rod End - Outter (11/16") x 2
Note: Items like upper ball joints and upper control arm bushings omitted because they are included in tubular upper control arms
PST Parts
PST Bilstein Shocks - Front
PST Lower Control Arm Rebuild Kit - Rubber
PST Tie Rod Sleeves 11/16 inch
PST Torsion Bar Master Kit - 1.03 inch
Reilly Motorsports Parts
Reilly Motorsport Strut Rods
Reilly Motorsport Upper Control Arms - Rod Ends
Hellwig Parts @ Summit
55905 Hellwig 1 1/8 inch Sway Bar - Tubular
My alternatives in upper control arms and torsion bars were from Firm Feel, but seems like PST and Reilly Motorsports is more cost effective. I would have gone with the 1.06 inch Firm Feel torsion bars.
You'll probably note that I haven't addressed the rear. I figured that could be phase 2 when I save up some more money. I also want to add sub frame connectors down the line as well.
Anyway... Let me know what you think of that combination.
Pricing: $1640.00
Note: That's for everything and that's not including the 10% FABO members discount at PST or the 5% discount at Rock Auto (until March 20th 2016)
Woods74
Broke Senior
Ok, we need a price breakdown. Because after welding up my K, and installing LCA bushings for good measure all I've had to do was buy offset UCA bushings, some good strut rod bushings, Fox shocks, set of 1.12 torsion bars and a sway bar.
$50
$50
$50
$500 (all 4)
$400.
$150
Call it 1300. I know you can spend more with adjustable this and that, but for the straight-forward package, it isn't much more, even replacing ball joints and what-not.
Alter-k-tion is $4740 before shipping. Still have to buy fancy brakes.
Not sure how you can't find a savings, because the savings is dramatic.
RMS Alterkation w/engine mounts and without brakes - $4,995
RMS Street Lynx - $1,995
Total: $6,990 (keep in mind this doesn't include installing the street lynx, which takes welding)
My Duster
Front:
1.12" torsion bars from Firm Feel: $355
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA's:$395
Howe Racing upper ball joints: $130
Moog lower ball joints:$80
QA1 LCA's: $395
Hotchkis Shocks: $475
Hellwig 55905 front bar: $175
Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610
QA1 tie rod sleeves: $50
Moog tie rods (all): $60
Moog pitman and idler arms: $80
Adjustable PST strut rods:$300
Rear:
Hellwig 6908 rear bar: $180 (this is the Ebody bar I run with my B-body rear axle)
AFCO 20231M springs: $320
AFCO leaf spring sliders: $200
Dr. Diff 1/2" spring offset:$150
Leaf spring perches: $15
Front suspension: 3,105
Rear suspension total: 865
Total: $3,970
So, my parts total is $3K cheaper than just the parts for the RMS alterkation and street lynx. In fact, my parts total is $1k less than just the Alterkation, and I did the whole car. My prices are mostly all Summit racing. Firm Feel, Bergman Autocraft, PST, and SD truck springs (sway bars) were also used.
Obviously, that's not the total cost. Brakes aren't included, neither is any of the chassis stiffening or wheels and tires. But that cost is the same regardless of which system you use, and the prices for the RMS conversions doesn't include any of that either. And you would still need all of it. And I included all the parts to make everything new, ie, pitman, idler, tie rod ends, ball joints etc, so that everything replaced by the RMS components would also be new on the torsion bar/leaf car. Realistically, you could save A LOT of money by not using tubular UCA's and LCA's, and just using offset UCA bushings (moog 7103) and boxing your stock LCA's and replacing the LCA bushings. Like about $700. And if you kept the stock steering you save $600. Or add a Howe steering quickner to the stock steering and still get a ratio improvement, the 1.5:1 is only $90. Drop the leaf spring sliders and save $200. Another $150 for the 1/2" spring offset. Not necessary, but without a mini-tub it gets you the same tire clearance as you'd get with the 4-link.
I also used all BRAND NEW prices. I didn't spend that much. I bought my Flaming River 16:1 manual box for $300, new in the box but secondhand. My strut rods were made by maddart, and I paid much less for them. But they're not available anymore so I included the new PST price. Maybe I forgot a bushing or two, but by all means, add them to the total. You won't get anywhere near the $7k you need for the RMS conversion, and that's just parts.
goldduster318
Overzealous Car Modifier
I think you are off to a goods start, however, I'd get the Bergman Auto Craft adjustable upper arms. I suggest either those or Hotchkis. A nod to the BAC ones if you drive the car a ton or are trying to save $$$.
http://bergmanautocraft.com/proddetail.php?prod=5-0090
I just installed some proforged ball joints on my friend's 1971 Demon with 73-76 knuckles last weekend and they are also nice pieces. I say whichever one is a better deal will work for you. We were turned on to these by the Hotchkis installer guy.
My personal opinion is that you can get by with the stock tie rod sleeves.
I have the Firm Feel 1.06 T-bars and they are super nice parts.
I love the Hotchkis/Fox Shocks. Perfect compliment to my 1.06 bars.
With stock rear springs (I have 340 type ESPO), you'll want the rear bar. My hotchkis one is in the middle link (also have offset shackles) and it's nicely neutral. If you go with significantly stiffer rear springs, you may not need so much rear bar.
blown71duster
Well-Known Member
Nice mopar cars aren't cheap to build , but if you are happy in the end . That is the most important .
Those Swartz chassis with brakes are 20K. But to quote them " gives your muscle car sports car handling with a luxury car ride " If that is your goal then you can justify spending the money.
Build what you can afford that makes you happy is the best suspension.
junior636
Well-Known Member
I know your responding to what was said but if you just want to compare a coil over kit like myself or hdk sell the pricing would be nearly the same for the front end parts. Your also quoting the most expensive kit on the market. The GTS or HDK are much cheaper than the alter k. I sell my kit for guys that want the torsion bars out of the way or for drag racers, I'm not here to say which is better or worse. Like everything, there's pros and cons of each.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
I have over $3000 in my stock front end car which has a lot of the same type of parts your car runs, and by the time I stick a borgeson steering box in it this summer I will be into it for $ 3500 give or take a few hun.
I believe you can purchase the Hemi Denny front end for around $ 3500 but I have not personally so I am not 100% on the price, maybe he could let us know.
At the time ( 2009 ish) I got my RMS it was $ 3900 for the one with no engine mounts as I was making my own, it looks like Bills prices have gone up but there are also other options now like the Gerst( Sp?) and Hemi Denny.
Right. I also quoted the most expensive parts on the market for the torsion bar/leaf spring example. I put over $1,500 in parts into the torsion bar/leaf spring car example that doesn't need to be there. Stock UCA's with offset bushings, and boxed stock LCA's with new bushings saves you $700 (and that includes buying all the new bushings). The stock power steering may not feel great, but the ratio is already 16:1, there's $600. You don't need spring sliders on your leafs, there's $200. Now the price for the torsion bar/leaf car is $2470. Heck just call it $2,500.
And you could run Bilsteins instead of Hotchkis shocks, there's another $100. Or proforged ball joints instead of Howe. Even with the torsion bar/leaf car there's places to save a lot of money without seriously changing the handling ability. Yes, the car would feel a little different, but that's true of your set up vs. the RMS unless you can prove otherwise. The RMS kit includes some very nice parts and components. Yes, you can save money with your kit or HDK, but you're not talking about using the same components as RMS either.
If you want to play, post the cost of your kit if you include all of the parts included in the RMS kit, lets see what you get with your kit and where the money is saved.
Old prices don't count, just like the fact that I probably saved well over $500 off the price I posted doesn't count. The prices I posted are new prices as of today, most are even rounded up to make nice even numbers. I didn't even include the FABO discount at PST, you can do it cheaper if you want to do some searching.
As far as the Borgeson, you don't need it. The Hotchkis Challenger uses the stock power steering and a Howe quickner to get to a 12:1 ratio, it's plenty fast. The borgeson is just a 14:1 box, and its the same basic design as the stock system, ie, its a worm set up. Ratio and feel are the only differences, and both can be addressed for much less money. Heck you can run the 24:1 manual steering and be just as fast, you just have spin the wheel faster/further.
HDK has posted prices in the $3,500 range if I remember right, but those are older numbers. Maybe they're the same, hopefully he'll chime in. This isn't the first time these prices have been discussed. And back to the point on components, the HDK has a lot of options to save or spend more depending on what components are included. If you use the fancy stuff, like I quoted for the torsion/leaf car, your price goes up a lot. And you still have to address the rear suspension.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the HDK, quite the opposite. I think what HemiDenny does is awesome, and I'm glad he's out there doing it. He's very knowledgable, makes great parts, and from everything I can tell is a great guy too. :thumbup:
But that's not the point.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
The only statement I made was that on my cars I have spent similar money in the front ends of both and that if you do a full build you "could" end up spending in the same price range.
I made no big claims as to performance of either system other than I don't think you would find a lot of performance difference if the rest of the car and the driver were kept the same.
I have some opinions on which one would be better in an all out race car but like most I have no real proof one way or the other.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
I'm assuming you make one of these coil over kits? What is the price points for them with the different levels of shocks and sway bars? Thanks!
junior636
Well-Known Member
$1350 with out powder coat or $1450 with powder coat. That includes viking d/a shocks and springs, adjustable upper control arms, tubular lower control arms, adjustable strut rods, new upper ball joints, shock hoops to support factory shock towers and all the hardware needed.
I'm not here to argue or debate about which is better. I just seen everyone comparing the two but using the absolute highest price point product for the debate. You can switch to coil overs for a lot less than what was being stated with the RMS system. That is all.
NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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Cool, thanks for posting. Does swapping over to your setup increase the handling potential of the car, or is it mainly to gain more engine compartment clearance?
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
Show some pictures, I would guess that you keep all the stock k-member and steering parts?
On another note I have a set of Viking shocks on my Valiant with 1.14" torsion bars and they work great in that application.
junior636
Well-Known Member
Well, as this thread clearly shows, that's up for debate and personal opinion. My preference is the coil over. I'm not here to get sucked into the debate that will never end.
junior636
Well-Known Member
Yes, uses stock steering and spindles.
Viking makes some awesome products and they are a great company to do business with.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
Interesting 636, that could be a very good kit for somebody who is wanting to up grade their front end and needs extra room in the engine bay, especially a big block A body.
Also at the price it is similar to purchasing torsion bars $ 350, shocks $ 300, strut rods $ 300 and upper control arms $ 350 for the factory suspension.
Also at the price it is similar to purchasing torsion bars $ 350, shocks $ 300, strut rods $ 300 and upper control arms $ 350 for the factory suspension.
junior636
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that was all i was trying to point out. It is possible to convert for similar prices.
NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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I would respectfully like to point out the whole purpose of this thread is about what type of chassis or kits are avalible to improve handling, as the OP is wanting to build a "track car" and he was under the false assumption that a replacement chassis was needed. And i think it is about 100% clear to anyone reading these posts, the FASTEST track/roadrace/auto X cars are torsion bar/leaf equipped. Oh, and the guy who got outran by a 4 door B body is the same member who told us all how much faster his duster was once ditching all the factory parts and installing aftermarket stuff front and rear. Sucks to be him.
Woods74
Broke Senior
^Vote for best post!
ssba
Well-Known Member
This is just another one of the many things that has changed about modifying an A-body. There are so many choices today with the pre fabricated bolt on parts. I believe the biggest reason for this is marketing. A part can be fixture welded and put in a box and shipped UPS.
Chassis shops are not found everywhere and most are expensive so a guy who wouldn't have
modified a car now can. Good time to be a Mopar owner.
Then there are the guys who will take it upon themselves and modify their car. Likely for budget and/or design reasons. I am always impressed with a well thought out go fast with what you got build. They can be primitive and generally against the grain but very effective.
I am almost reluctant to add this. What the heck.....
Here are a couple tips for the bucks down guy that doesn't wish to buy much more than
torsion bars and tires. You can't skimp on those two items.
Strengthen the upper control arms with rebar and the tie rod sleeve seams can be welded. Inexpensive shocks doubled up. Leafs can be added or truck springs can be flattened in a press and reassembled to to the rate you need if you half to.
Large sway bars can be found salvage on old squads. Eyes can be cut off if to long and clamped. Modify strut rods from a larger Mopar to fit.
Well you get the idea. Just take what you would do to a well set up car and improvise toward the same effect with whats available and fits your budget.
Chassis shops are not found everywhere and most are expensive so a guy who wouldn't have
modified a car now can. Good time to be a Mopar owner.
Then there are the guys who will take it upon themselves and modify their car. Likely for budget and/or design reasons. I am always impressed with a well thought out go fast with what you got build. They can be primitive and generally against the grain but very effective.
I am almost reluctant to add this. What the heck.....
Here are a couple tips for the bucks down guy that doesn't wish to buy much more than
torsion bars and tires. You can't skimp on those two items.
Strengthen the upper control arms with rebar and the tie rod sleeve seams can be welded. Inexpensive shocks doubled up. Leafs can be added or truck springs can be flattened in a press and reassembled to to the rate you need if you half to.
Large sway bars can be found salvage on old squads. Eyes can be cut off if to long and clamped. Modify strut rods from a larger Mopar to fit.
Well you get the idea. Just take what you would do to a well set up car and improvise toward the same effect with whats available and fits your budget.
JoesEdge
Well-Known Member
You're the second guy to endorse those SPC arms. They look cool and all, but they're quite a bit more expensive and they don't even come with ball joints so that's an extra expense.
I don't see too much difference between the Reilly and Hotkiss arms other than price. Their design are quite similar, also there isn't too much negative comments over Reilly Motorsports quality. That's something I factored into the equation.
The funny thing is, Hotkiss is like 10 minutes away from me. They have great stuff, but pretty pricey.
I've heard of proforged, but they're made overseas in Taiwan. That might not mean much since I hear Moog is being made overseas as well. Bummer. Moog might be better priced. I'll have to compare.
The tie rod sleeves are probably not critical, but for 50 bucks it doesn't make a huge dent in the budget and I need tie rods anyway since mine are worn and the boots are busted. Might as well go big while I'm at it.
Many have stated how much they have liked their Firm Feel torsion bars. I know they're more expensive than PST's, but that may be one area where I might splurge a little. Maybe they can work with me on the price if I purchase more parts from them.
Blu seems to like the Fox shocks too. The first time I heard of either Bilstein or Fox is in the desert racing scene. I a set of Bilstein 5100's on my Ford Ranger (a total of 6 shocks actually) that had mid-level Camburg race suspension on it. It wasn't long travel, but it was enough to take a beating in the desert. It was amazing how it handled on and off-road. I miss that truck. I sold it. Anyway.... I have been a Bilstein fan ever since.
As for rear springs, that will be later down the line. I haven't decided on rear sway bar yet. I guess I'll have to see how it handles after I do the front end.
Thanks for the advice and tips. I appreciate it! It's good to hear first hand experience. You and Blu have some nice cars!
It may seem like this thread went off on a wild tangent, but it's awesome that so many suspension options have been discussed. Nice to know that when it comes to Mopar suspension, the aftermarket is alive and hopefully doing well.
As far as torsion/leaves are concerned, I figure it's better to keep it simple. Although, if I had the cash I'd get an Alterkation kit and drop a Gen III Hemi in my Duster. ;)
One thing that I have noticed, some of the torsion bar guys have mentioned that the ride quality "is not so bad" or "rides like new Mustang" with stiffer bars but I don't think anyone with coli-overs have mentioned what the ride quality is like on a daily basis.
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