Free EFI...........

[67Dart273]

I have a set of 30# injectors & matching mass air meter all brand new in box if you are interested when you get to that stage. PM me if interested. I'm getting ready to sell off my Ford stuff on CL soon.

Thanks. All this stuff may be a LONG way off. I plan to come up with an engine test stand, so I can mess with it a little over winter, I hope, and do what you might call a "quick and dirty" to get the MAP (speed density) system running, depending on what Inkjunkie comes up with. It doesn't sound like much to convert to MAP later "IF"

FIRST I need to investigate that distributor...............................

I wish I knew how to get ahold of EFI-CUDA. It sounds like he just shortened a Ferd distributor to fit. He is also using a SB, so that means the Ferd distributor rotates "the wrong way." So maybe the triggering system they are using does not matter.

 

[67Dart273]

Well I went out and looked at the Torker which had come on the "junk van" 360 engine, and THAT looks "easy" enough, except for one threaded boss which I'll have to mill down on top of one intake runner.

Today I went out to Home Depot and bought 8 - 1/2" compression x 3/8" U.S. male pipe fittings. They were a "touch" too small. The Ferd 460 manifold bungs measure nominally .549, so I had to bore the fittings slightly. This looks like it just might work.

My plan is to drill/ tap the manifold, thread in the fittings so the hex flats line up on the inboard side, and then braze/ silver solder a small bracket strap along all 4 to stabilize them from movement. Then I should be able to take a grinder and mow down the extended fitting so that it's flush with the inside runner wall

This by the way is the "basement lathe." A little (claimed) 9x20 Jet, paid 400 bucks for it. THEY LIE. It will barely swing 9" over the bed, but with the carriage in the road, you'd be lucky to swing a 6" piece. Nevertheless, it looks like a handy little tool, and it runs nice and true.

Like this one here:

http://www.micro-machine-shop.com/9x20_lathe.htm

 

[KitCarlson]

Sounds like you are well on your way.

I can possibly help about the distributor. The phasing will change if you vary the rotation. What was the trailing edge, becomes the leading edge. Most likely the phase will change by the width of reluctor nub. The polarity of the signal will remain the same regardless if it is VR or Hall sensing. A picture of the reluctor and stator will help me tell you more. There might be sync sensor, or other method to consider.

 

[67Dart273]

I originally thought there must be two sensors in the dist. in order to give crank position. Evidently not. This is a MAP (speed density) setup, and it appears the only thing in the dist. is an optical wheel. Thus, direction does not change things.

I have not fully examined this yet, but one article I found (in my sleepy stupor) indicated that the optical wheel had one odd slot which the computer could "read" for crank position, IE slot timing changed with that slot.

What I've found with the EFI-CUDA swap is that he used a Ferd dist with a SB Mopar, so it has to work.

Got busy last night and bored out all 8 of the adapters. I have a feeling that was the EASY part!!

 

[KitCarlson]

The odd slot is the sync, it is most likely important for sequential fuel delivery. The ferd will work with modifications to the cap phase reference, plug firing order position and mechanical fit/drive changes. Being optical is a good thing, unless it is very fine like an encoder. The good thing is it works at zero speed, and static timing checks will be easy with a meter.

It has been my experience working with automotive management systems, the designers go out of their way to obfuscate. This is especially true with ferd common rail diesel injection systems. An example is sensor a timing reference is not at TDC.

It will help to have a working ferd system to do some checks with a scope. Looking at the distributor signal in conjunction with the #1 plug will identify sync location. I modified a clamp-on timing light by installing an attenuator and BNC connector. It works without having to hold the trigger on the light.

It is often worth while to bench test, without fuel. A single plug at coil, permits distributor phase to be studied at low RPM. It may be necessary to block light to the optical if there is not a built-in cover. With a timing light, you will have a fire for each cylinder. Turn with drill at 1/2 engine idle speed, cw from top down look.. Mark on the distributor case where sparks occur. Timing will likely advance in a ccw from those points. Compare with cap. As suggested earlier, a cap shift of tab or slot width, will be necessary, depending on how the timing signal is used by ECU.

 

[67Dart273]

I certainly plan to diddle with the system "dry" on the bench. And depending on how things go late summer/ this fall, I hope to have a "guinea pig" engine on a stand of sorts for some sort of testing.

One thing I still do not understand is firing order. The ford 460 has the same firing order as Mopar, once you "retime" for the Ford no1 cylinder (no2 on Mopar)

(EFI-CUDA claims to have had some discussions with Ford Engineering on this). It would SEEM to me that if you were to simply time it as if it WERE a Ford, then injector relationship should be happy. He sees to think differently. In other words, construct a timing mark for the no2 cylinder, plop the injectors in exactly as they were in the 460

 

[KitCarlson]

Because you are reversing the distributor rotation it the firing order is also order is reversed at cap. The fuel injectors will need to work with the corresponding plug. That most likely will a require harness change. It depends some on the injection strategy.

My plan would be to do investigations as ferd (CCW), check distributor sensor, ignition and injector signals. I use a logic analyzer to store signals, for study. It can only do logic level so signals must be conditioned. I can help with simple ways to do that. The logic analyzer maps the highs and lows of multiple signals at once.

Then rotate the distributor Mopar (CW), and again log signals, then sort it out.

You are a smart guy and will figure it out.

I can also program a micro-controller to use as a simulator for the distributor. I find it a better way to do tests. It is quiet, and the RPM is variably controlled exactly as desired. Let me know, I will need a snap shot of the distributor waveform.

Add a mighty-vac to the MAP and a couple potentiometers for temperature simulation, and you are ready for serious bench work.

 

[67Dart273]

I haven't really gotten that far yet. Hoping Doug (inkjunkie) gets well soon, he has some Ford stuff as well. I'm not sure I understand how this distributor can "tell" the computer it's going the wrong direction? But later...........................

Sounds like you and I will have to stay in touch. I WISH I could find contact info for that EFI-CUDA guy.

 

[KitCarlson]

I'm not sure I understand how this distributor can "tell" the computer it's going the wrong direction?

The computer may not know, unless the signature of the optical wheel is special in design. What is more important is the change in signal vs rotor relationship. Imagine a slot that starts at the leading edge of the rotor for half the rotor width. Turned the other way the slot starts at the middle of the rotor and ends at the trailing edge. The difference is phase, is the width of the slot.

It depends on the signature of the distributor signal. Depends on symmetry and how the odd slot is designed in. Since the optical wheel is locked to the rotor, the phase of the signal resulting from the slots likely differs with rotation direction. If by chance or design, slots or tabs are centered on the rotor terminal, symmetry will enable it to work in either direction. The other way it might work in either direction is if the trigger signal width is very narrow in relation to the rotor terminal width.

 

[273]

I very interested how this turns out, want swap on FI on my 273 build its gonna be a fairly radical engine, 7500 rpm redline, hoping FI helps driveablity. I was thinking 5.0L MAS ECU reprogrammed for my engine spec's with a Painless harness the 460 throttle body looks like it would work well on the Eddy RPM intake I wanna use. Couldn't you modify a magnum distributor to work with Ford ECU?

 

[67Dart273]

The computer may not know, unless the signature of the optical wheel is special in design. .

Kit I believe that rotation is a non issue. I bumped the caliper in one shot, but the optical wheel is nominally .5 +/- .002" for every slot except one, which is nominally 1/8" wider than the rest. This thing cannot possible be able to figure out which way the dist. is rotating, OOPS, --EDIT-- 'not'. It's Hall effect!! (((and since it's optical, and not magnetic, it's either "on" or "off" so when the trigger sees "narrow -- wide -- narrow" it knows "where it is" but not in which direction. )))

Once again, EFI-CUDA made no mention of direction being a problem.

I need to wait for Doug (Inkjunkie) to get up and around, and see if I can kibitz him out of the parts he offered. Maybe free lunch, Doug? "We deliver."


AND.................................I found these:

Photos of the EFI-CUDA modified Ferd distro down the page

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/m...!/?PHPSESSID=7cb3c38b3a54d59ff08f1e261d20f03c

and stuff:

http://www.tonybob.com/plymouth/diyefi.html

 

[67Dart273]

I very interested how this turns out, want swap on FI on my 273 build its gonna be a fairly radical engine, 7500 rpm redline, hoping FI helps driveablity. I was thinking 5.0L MAS ECU reprogrammed for my engine spec's with a Painless harness the 460 throttle body looks like it would work well on the Eddy RPM intake I wanna use. Couldn't you modify a magnum distributor to work with Ford ECU?

No idea, I have not Googled that far. So far as I know, the Chryslers are magnetic triggers, this thing is optical. I'm sure you could build a little interface, but as you can see, "crank position" is evidently built into the distributor on this. I would guess, then, that the engine has to crank "all the way around" for the ECU to figure out where no1 is from the optical wheel, IE it has to see the wide slot at least once to start things off.

The only beauouch I have with using the Fraud distributor, is, I'm stuck with the gigantic distributor cap.

 

[alan627b]

MSD has the Cap-Adapt for the small block Mopar, essentially putting a Ford cap on a Mopar distributor. So as far as being "stuck", unless the Frod distributor won't fit in the area it goes into, i.e., interference with the firewall, having the terminals spread out would be a plus.. less chance for crossfiring, and a better sytem for wire retention.
For that matter, could you adapt the Ford shutter wheel and reluctor into the housing from a late model SB distibutor, which has no advance mechanism? Just a thought.
I've seen this MSD cap on a Mopar distributor in an A body engine bay before, so maybe it won't actually present a problem.
Just thinking here.. hope it helps.

Alan

 

[67Dart273]

Yeh.. heh. The cap is the least of my worries. It will be pretty obvious, if I live long enough to make this all happen, that "none of it" belongs under my hood!!!!

 

[KitCarlson]

The picture of the tab wheel is worth 1000 words. At the sync position the tab is narrow and the slot is wider. That to me is a strong indication distributor rotation matters.

Typically a Hall sensor has a low signal with a tab and a high signal with a slot. That can vary if the signal is inverted. What does matter is how the ECU processes the signal. I can look at the wheel and guess with ferd rotation CCW, that there is a consistent and equal timing degree reference when the signal goes from high to low. It the tab length vs the slot is measured by the ECU the narrow tab and wide slot indicate the reference. If rotated CW, the high to low transitions differers at the sync location, and the result is undesirable. It has to do with the observation of the leading or trailing edge of non uniform tabs. Girl watching, I am sure most get a different impression, depending if observations are of the front, or the behind.

There are options. The sensor mechanism could be flipped upside down, this would reverse rotation. If it fits in a mopar housing you are one step ahead. Or you could fabricate an offset 1:1 gear box that would reverse rotation, and move distributor away from firewall.

The mopar EFI Hall distributor I am aware of is a semicircle, 1/2 tab 1/2 slot. It could be possible to fabricate a correct slot wheel to make it work. Mild steel works best.

 

[67Dart273]

Well we won't know until I get time to get the thing jigged up But according to the "guy who did this" rotation does not matter. Click the link I posted above, down that thread are photos and a description of what he did to the original distributor.

I wish I had more energy. I cannot seem to do anywhere near as much as I used to in a day!!!

 

[BillGrissom]

I am surely not an expert, but I'll throw out a few thoughts and some maybe info:

1. For engine controls that have a distributor plus a camshaft sensor, the cam sensing is used only for fuel injection phasing. Spark phasing is done by the distributor rotor as in the past. Examples are the Ford system you have and the Mopar Magnums.

2. Phasing fuel injection is only important for slightly improved emissions at low engine load. At higher fuel flow, the injectors are open much longer than the intake valve is open. The Megasquirt manual says there is little benefit in "sequential fuel injection" over "batch mode".

3. However, since your Ford system uses the cam phasing, it probably also requires it. Thus you are correct to try to adapt the Ford distributor.

4. As an option to the Ford distributor, I think that all optical sensors output a 5V square wave signal, as does a Hall-effect magnetic sensor. But I doubt you could substitute the Magnum distributor directly since I think it has only 2 signals per revolution, i.e. whether the crank is on the 1st or 2nd stroke. If true, you might adapt it by cutting more slots in the metal target.

5. As another distributor option, you might use an old points SB distributor with a Crane XR700 optical pickup (I have a few). They have 8 equal openings in the plastic wheel and give a +5V signal for each. You would need to open 1 of the holes wider to serve as the phasing slot. Indeed, you would probably have to make all slots wider to be similar to the Ford wheel. You might also have trouble getting it in the correct starting position. That would be easier with a slant with its many teeth on the drive gear.

6. I think some engine controls require that the engine turn over up to 2 revs before it figures out the piston locations and can first fire a spark. I prefer one that fires immediately, though I imagine with a carb it takes a few passes to get fuel into the cylinders anyway. I read that the latest controls monitor everything as the engine spins down so they can fire on the first piston compression, which is important for ones that shut off at stop lights. For this, they need to monitor rotational direction too since the engine can reverse slightly when stopping. This always requires a second crank or cam sensor for "quadrature phasing", otherwise no way to determine rotational direction.

7. I suspect the Magnum spark controls are slightly better than your Ford system since they spark off a crank sensor. It looks like your Ford system has the spark trigger from the distributor wheel. I know that later "distributor-less" Ford EDIS systems used a crank sensor w/ 36 teeth & 1 missing tooth, but no cam sensor so they fired every stroke as "wasted spark".

8. Great score on your Jet lathe. I am still looking for a CNC mill and maybe lathe, which will greatly enable me.

 

[67Dart273]

8. Great score on your Jet lathe. I am still looking for a CNC mill and maybe lathe, which will greatly enable me.

Thanks, Bill. There ARE things I don't care for on the thing. The compound is incredibly inconvenient to adjust. There does not seem to be any gib style adjustment on the carriage, although I don't think this one has seen much use and is really not loose yet.

The overall plan is to keep this for small work

I have a 12-?24? Atlas Craftsman, early model. It has been "adequate" after some upgrades, but is a little sloppy. The carriage/ bed design is a weak design on them. I helped mine a lot with the addition of an ebay score, known as a "production cross slide" which is much stiffer than original, and a used HF tool post

The production cross slide shown below is MUCH beefier than the original, has a nice quick change tool holder, and a cut off tool which can be mounted behind. I'm using the Horrid Freight tool post on this slide, and that combo definately helped

But I bought a couple of "junkers" and hope to improve on the Atlas

I bought an early South Bend, which has the early "non bearing" headstock." I finally decided that wasn't "good enough," and will probably resell it.

Immediately after, I ran into a Logan, which makes the others look like toys. I think the bare bed on the Logan is heavier than the entire assembled Atlas!!! But the Logan has a busted back gear. I may put it together, as I probably won't need the back gear, anyhow.

It's called a "Logan 200" and is 'ell for stout (10 x 24)



One or two of my lens projects:

Canon FL 19mm to Canon EF mount

http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewtopic.php?id=16902

Two Sig 600mm mirror lenses, one to Pentax M42, other to Canon EF

http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewtopic.php?id=11415

http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewtopic.php?id=11381

Attempting to convert a Canon tele lens into a great big spotting scope

http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewtopic.php?id=11503