Front suspension height

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ajarofclay

ajarofclay

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I need your help again, fellas. I'm trying to mock up a front tire setup on my 72 Demon 340. I just finished putting a disc brake setup on the front along with changing some suspension and steering parts. I set the torsion bars all the way down to where they first start making contact and while trying to put the wheel tire combination on, I can't even squeeze it between the wheel well and the brakes. My question is does anybody know what the standard height setup is from Factory on the front suspension? Maybe from the spindle Center to the highest point on the inner fender? Spindle to wheel well opening? Ground to opening? As always I appreciate any help you guys can give.
 
This is the info you need for the ride height

IMG_1893.jpeg


The factory set the ride height using the difference in measurements from the bottom of the torsion bar adjusting blade and the bottom out the lower ball joint. For an A body that’s the “V and L” car line (valiant) so 1-7/8”. They didn’t use any of the body parts as a reference, almost like they knew the body tolerances were big!

The real question I have is, what wheel and tire combination are you trying to install?
 
Thank you, Gentlemen! You Rock! I actually have the manuals on 3 separate discs but the processor in my desktop took a dump so I'm working with my laptop right now which doesn't have a disc drive. Great info, thanks again.
 
72bluNblu said:
This is the info you need for the ride height

View attachment 1716224481

The factory set the ride height using the difference in measurements from the bottom of the torsion bar adjusting blade and the bottom out the lower ball joint. For an A body that’s the “V and L” car line (valiant) so 1-7/8”. They didn’t use any of the body parts as a reference, almost like they knew the body tolerances were big!

The real question I have is, what wheel and tire combination are you trying to install?
Click to expand...
So... long story, not so short, I'm trying to get this thing closer to stock, or at least a stock look. Changed to discs up front going to a 4.5" bolt pattern so I bought 15" rallyes. Original bias ply's were 25.9 with 8.25 section width. My dilemma is I REALLY want Mickey Thompson tires to match the era but the smallest they make are 215/70 15's. They are 1" taller and a 1/4" wider. from what I read that's probably pushing it but I look at is as essentially 1/2" on each side for height and an 1/8" on each side for width. I do have a feeling I should have gpme with 6" rims though instead of 7's. Very few companies seem to be making tires now in 15's that offer a wide range in size since I am going to be running wider on the rear. Goodrich does but They have a long bad history of of the letters turning brown and have gotten expensive. Could go with Coopers but it feels wrong to have tires on a Mopar that say COBRA on them. I want to run RWL's also so I wouldn't want to turn them around. There are a couple of Japanese brands but that would bother me too. (Yeah, I know I got issues, LOL) T

So the very short version:)... 215/70R15 on front, 275/60R15 on Rear.
 
ajarofclay said:
So... long story, not so short, I'm trying to get this thing closer to stock, or at least a stock look. Changed to discs up front going to a 4.5" bolt pattern so I bought 15" rallyes. Original bias ply's were 25.9 with 8.25 section width. My dilemma is I REALLY want Mickey Thompson tires to match the era but the smallest they make are 215/70 15's. They are 1" taller and a 1/4" wider. from what I read that's probably pushing it but I look at is as essentially 1/2" on each side for height and an 1/8" on each side for width. I do have a feeling I should have gpme with 6" rims though instead of 7's. Very few companies seem to be making tires now in 15's that offer a wide range in size since I am going to be running wider on the rear. Goodrich does but They have a long bad history of of the letters turning brown and have gotten expensive. Could go with Coopers but it feels wrong to have tires on a Mopar that say COBRA on them. I want to run RWL's also so I wouldn't want to turn them around. There are a couple of Japanese brands but that would bother me too. (Yeah, I know I got issues, LOL) T

So the very short version:)... 215/70R15 on front, 275/60R15 on Rear.
Click to expand...

Yeah I really don't see a 27" tall tire working in the front. The only stuff I've see that tall up front was on drag cars, so, super narrow tires on narrow rims that were inset pretty far away from the fenders. If you've got a new reproduction 15x7" rallye with a 4" or even 4.25" backspace that tire is going to hit the lower front corner of the fender at least, and probably other things too.

I ran a 225/60/15 on my Duster with the BBP mopar disks up front and 15x7's with a 4.25" backspace, and even those didn't have much clearance. A little bit wider than the 215/70/15's, but a whole bunch shorter. And the height was honestly a bigger factor than the width was.
 
Cooper also makes the Mastercraft tire

Basically the same as the cobra

I have 215 70 14 on the front of my 67 dart and it sits very low on the front. I have an inch forward clearance.

no modifications to the body

Screenshot_20240321-123346.png
 
Dana67Dart said:
Cooper also makes the Mastercraft tire

Basically the same as the cobra

I have 215 70 14 on the front of my 67 dart and it sits very low on the front. I have an inch forward clearance.

no modifications to the body

View attachment 1716224787
Click to expand...

Right, but that's a 25.9" tall tire. And I bet that clearance is with the wheels straight ahead, which is not the tire position with the tightest clearance at the front corner.

And if you have SBP brakes and wheels, you also have a narrower track width, which will give more clearance to the lower front corner too
 
How about a 215 - 60 or 65 -15

cooper makes a 215 65 15 same size as the 215 70 14

1711047953978.png


PXL_20240321_190725933.jpg

Oooof? I never looked at this whole turning. In my case I don't have an extra 1/2 " for a 215 70 15
(Front factory KH disks with 14x5.5 OEM steel wheels sbp)
PXL_20240321_190854804.jpg
 
Dana67Dart said:
Cooper also makes the Mastercraft tire

Basically the same as the cobra

I have 215 70 14 on the front of my 67 dart and it sits very low on the front. I have an inch forward clearance.

no modifications to the body

View attachment 1716224787
Click to expand...
Yeah, I debated those also but really would like MT's. At least AVENGER was a Mopar trademark.
 
Dana67Dart said:
How about a 215 - 60 or 65 -15

cooper makes a 215 65 15 same size as the 215 70 14

View attachment 1716224804

View attachment 1716224816
Oooof? I never looked at this whole turning. In my case I don't have an extra 1/2 " for a 215 70 15
(Front factory KH disks with 14x5.5 OEM steel wheels sbp)
View attachment 1716224815
Click to expand...
YEP, that was the size I was looking for all along but unfortunately Mickey Thompson's don't come in that size. Goodyear should be ashamed of themselves for abandoning the classic muscle car crowd.
 
72bluNblu said:
Yeah I really don't see a 27" tall tire working in the front. The only stuff I've see that tall up front was on drag cars, so, super narrow tires on narrow rims that were inset pretty far away from the fenders. If you've got a new reproduction 15x7" rallye with a 4" or even 4.25" backspace that tire is going to hit the lower front corner of the fender at least, and probably other things too.

I ran a 225/60/15 on my Duster with the BBP mopar disks up front and 15x7's with a 4.25" backspace, and even those didn't have much clearance. A little bit wider than the 215/70/15's, but a whole bunch shorter. And the height was honestly a bigger factor than the width was.
Click to expand...
Good info, much appreciated.
 
you know about Coker Tire?

also the yellowing of BFG... they say get them in the sun and the yellowing goes away. go figure
 
Dana67Dart said:
you know about Coker Tire?

also the yellowing of BFG... they say get them in the sun and the yellowing goes away. go figure
Click to expand...
Yeah, Coker is priced pretty extreme and I looked at their site a little earlier and even they have some glitches with matching the front to rear sizes I'm looking for.
 
Good morning, gentlemen. Hoping you guys see this again being there I'm posting it a little further down the line. I set the torsion bars which was a little bit of a pain because I went back and forth I have dozen times and it kept changing a little bit. When I finally got it done and mounted the test Tire (not a Mickey Thompson but it is a 215/70-15) there looks to be a safe amount of clearance. That's a half inch drill bit I'm slipping between there in the pics I am attaching at the tightest position while turning. That said though the front end still looks like it's sitting awkwardly High. Right now I took the top of the jack stands off and have the lower control arm setting right on the bases and the spindles are, give or take, right about where they should be with the bottom of the tire compressed a little bit on the ground. Looking at profile shots online it looks like there's more clearance between the top of the tire and the bottom of the Fender opening than with stick E70-14 on one. There does seem to be an issue trying to bounce on the front bumper to settle things in because it doesn't really move. It actually groans a little bit when I try also so I'm wondering if the torsion bars may be bound up a little bit from all the years of sitting. Any thoughts? I hate to be bothersome but if you guys are in the vicinity of your cars, would it be too much trouble to measure from the ground to say bottom of the wheel well opening?

20240322_144627.jpg


20240322_144554.jpg


20240322_144220.jpg


20240322_144155.jpg
 
ajarofclay said:
Good morning, gentlemen. Hoping you guys see this again being there I'm posting it a little further down the line. I set the torsion bars which was a little bit of a pain because I went back and forth I have dozen times and it kept changing a little bit. When I finally got it done and mounted the test Tire (not a Mickey Thompson but it is a 215/70-15) there looks to be a safe amount of clearance. That's a half inch drill bit I'm slipping between there in the pics I am attaching at the tightest position while turning. That said though the front end still looks like it's sitting awkwardly High. Right now I took the top of the jack stands off and have the lower control arm setting right on the bases and the spindles are, give or take, right about where they should be with the bottom of the tire compressed a little bit on the ground. Looking at profile shots online it looks like there's more clearance between the top of the tire and the bottom of the Fender opening than with stick E70-14 on one. There does seem to be an issue trying to bounce on the front bumper to settle things in because it doesn't really move. It actually groans a little bit when I try also so I'm wondering if the torsion bars may be bound up a little bit from all the years of sitting. Any thoughts? I hate to be bothersome but if you guys are in the vicinity of your cars, would it be too much trouble to measure from the ground to say bottom of the wheel well opening?

View attachment 1716227173

View attachment 1716227174

View attachment 1716227175

View attachment 1716227176
Click to expand...
A little more caster will open that gap up a little. (caster, rearward at the top)
 
Thanks, mike. Yes, I'm just curious about the height. It seems a little high and with a taller Tire I would expect there to be less gap at the top of it where it actually seems like there's a little more.
 
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ajarofclay said:
Good morning, gentlemen. Hoping you guys see this again being there I'm posting it a little further down the line. I set the torsion bars which was a little bit of a pain because I went back and forth I have dozen times and it kept changing a little bit. When I finally got it done and mounted the test Tire (not a Mickey Thompson but it is a 215/70-15) there looks to be a safe amount of clearance. That's a half inch drill bit I'm slipping between there in the pics I am attaching at the tightest position while turning. That said though the front end still looks like it's sitting awkwardly High. Right now I took the top of the jack stands off and have the lower control arm setting right on the bases and the spindles are, give or take, right about where they should be with the bottom of the tire compressed a little bit on the ground. Looking at profile shots online it looks like there's more clearance between the top of the tire and the bottom of the Fender opening than with stick E70-14 on one. There does seem to be an issue trying to bounce on the front bumper to settle things in because it doesn't really move. It actually groans a little bit when I try also so I'm wondering if the torsion bars may be bound up a little bit from all the years of sitting. Any thoughts? I hate to be bothersome but if you guys are in the vicinity of your cars, would it be too much trouble to measure from the ground to say bottom of the wheel well opening?

View attachment 1716227173

View attachment 1716227174

View attachment 1716227175

View attachment 1716227176
Click to expand...

Interesting! I should have paid more attention to the fact that your car is a '72, at some point in '72 the wheel openings were made longer in the front fender. Compared to a '71 the '72 fender has a shorter front section so there's almost an extra 3/4" of room in the front to the corner.

Front Fender Dimensions

As for the ride height, a couple of things. First, if you still have jack stands under the LCA your ground to fender opening measurement probably won't be the same as if it were sitting on the ground. Just because you have some bulge in the tire does not mean that the tire is fully loaded. Now, if the car has it's engine and everything else in place then the distance between the top of the tire and the body should still be the same because all the weight of the car is on the suspension, you just might not be able to use the ground as a reference.

But you can still use the A-B measurement from the FSM. That's why the factory used that measurement, because it eliminates tire height as part of the ride height measurement. Measuring to the fender includes tire height and body tolerances. These cars did sit pretty high in the front, remember these are factory cars and even new cars allow a decent sized gap above the tire to the fender. So if you're using the factory measurement, you will have a gap there.

What is your A-B number?
 
On my 67, the distance from the down stop to the rubber is less than an inch, like 1/2"
 
Have you used the strut that runs from the wheel opening corner to the bumper brace to adjust the fender a bit in the critical location? Some members here have even modified the strut to hold the fender out a little bit more to solve the issue
 
Good Lord, you guys are an amazing catalog of information. Just took the measurement and it is indeed 7.25". I just did a static alignment on it because I was suddenly enlightened on how that could alter the clearance. I set the camber while favoring the caster back as much as I could.

As far as the height, I measured the height to the center of the spindle cap when I had taken the pics posted above with the full weight of the car on it. I thought the nose sat too high, especially since The rear in on jackstands and likely 4 inches higher than it will be when I set it down with 275/60's on it. When I took the adjustable supports out and set the LCA's on them the spindles were really close to that height, give or take... I do know that these sit kind of low in the rear and I'm not a fan; never was, but I have stock shocks on it now and don't want to go with air shocks ever again.
 
After all that, then this;
When you are backing up with the brakes applied, the LCAs will migrate forwards compressing the Strut rod bushings. If you happen to be coming off a drive-on hoist and turning, Contact!, watch for it.
I just trimmed my fenders, and could then run 245/50-15s on 8s at zero offset, at any ride height, which made whipping around town so much more fun.

This on a 68 Barracuda
 
AJ/FormS said:
After all that, then this;
When you are backing up with the brakes applied, the LCAs will migrate forwards compressing the Strut rod bushings. If you happen to be coming off a drive-on hoist and turning, Contact!, watch for it.
I just trimmed my fenders, and could then run 245/50-15s on 8s at zero offset, at any ride height, which made whipping around town so much more fun.

This on a 68 Barracuda
Click to expand...

A great reason to get rid of the giant rubber pillows that are the original strut rod bushings and replace them with adjustable strut rods. If they move that far forward, they move that far rearward too, and why would you want your caster changing every time you apply the brakes?
 
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