Gappless Piston Rings .

-
jimjimjimmy

jimjimjimmy

lobsterman
FABO Gold Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
5,353
Reaction score
2,647
Location
p. e. i.
I have been reading up on these rings with mixed results there are few that seem to like them and more that claim they are a scam . Grumpy claimed piston rings needed a gap to seal and function properly . what is your experience with them . are they an expensive scam ?
 
I would say most of the engine builders I have contact with use Total Seal rings.

I've used them in a early Hemi build I did and will use them again in my SBM dirt late model engine. For alky I'm using a gapless top ring, Napier second ring and a std tension oil ring. 1/16-1/16-3/16 ring pack.

They make many different versions both gap and gapless. Excellent customer service from knowledgeable people.

You still have a gap with the gapless ring but they use a thin second ring to seal the cylinder... Only on one ring.
 
I tried TotalSeal's once in my 1.9L Opel rally engine.... high revving, low compression engine. Did not seem to make any real difference in actual performance and the bore wear was more. But that is an application where max HP and torque can rarely be put to any good use, so I might have seen a usable difference for something like circle track use. I would not call them a scam at all, but I suspect you have to have the right use to see any real benefit.
 
If it doesn't have gas ports it gets gapless top rings.

Jenkins was correct. You are always going to have some blowby. Even the very best of the best have some. There is a cumulative effect, especially as RPM goes up. You need to run the SECOND ring gap wider than you normally would to get the blowby past the second ring. If you don't, no matter what you do you will unseat the top ring.

I've done more testing on this than it was worth. The better the block, the hone and the piston the less effective the gapless top is. If you are at that point you should be using gas ports.

If you want to see how well a gapless top ring works, do the best prep work you can on a 400 Chevy block and use conventional rings. Put it on the dyno and put a blowby meter on it. Then do nothing but change the rings to a topless set and see how much more ffective they are.
 
jimjimjimmy said:
I have been reading up on these rings with mixed results there are few that seem to like them and more that claim they are a scam . Grumpy claimed piston rings needed a gap to seal and function properly . what is your experience with them . are they an expensive scam ?
Click to expand...

Complete and total scam. They don't make more power and they DO cause oil consumption. I have been tracking three engines with them over the last year and they ALL burn copious amounts of oil. Pressure builds up between the rings and winds up unseating the rings which loses power and oil control. Jenkins tried gapless rings and found that they made less power. I will never use them again. I have been lied to by TotalSeal when discussing them at great length. Their AP line cannot be beat however--fantastic rings. Doesn't matter what you do with the second ring, it will still burn oil and make less power. BFD if they show great cranking numbers and blowby--I think once above cranking speeds they cannot maintain control. Also someone mentioned bore wear--this is correct they do accelerate bore wear.

I have a friend who swears by them. 7400 rpm 327 Chev road race application. He really believed in them until I asked him to closely track his oil level and frequency of checking/adding oil. He is now currently switching them out. His piston tops and chambers are wet and oily and after many people telling him while racing @ Calabogie that he was blowing blue he is finally seeing the light. Another engine is a D.i.R.T. modified (DART iron eagle block) that I have been involved with since the start. Took it apart last month and it is evident it consumes oil by the pint-have since switched him over to the AP line. Use them if you want but I will never equip and engine with them even if the customer requests them ever again. Makes one look real bad. Fuckin scam through and through. J.Rob
 
RAMM said:
Complete and total scam. They don't make more power and they DO cause oil consumption. I have been tracking three engines with them over the last year and they ALL burn copious amounts of oil. Pressure builds up between the rings and winds up unseating the rings which loses power and oil control. Jenkins tried gapless rings and found that they made less power. I will never use them again. I have been lied to by TotalSeal when discussing them at great length. Their AP line cannot be beat however--fantastic rings. Doesn't matter what you do with the second ring, it will still burn oil and make less power. BFD if they show great cranking numbers and blowby--I think once above cranking speeds they cannot maintain control. Also someone mentioned bore wear--this is correct they do accelerate bore wear.

I have a friend who swears by them. 7400 rpm 327 Chev road race application. He really believed in them until I asked him to closely track his oil level and frequency of checking/adding oil. He is now currently switching them out. His piston tops and chambers are wet and oily and after many people telling him while racing @ Calabogie that he was blowing blue he is finally seeing the light. Another engine is a D.i.R.T. modified (DART iron eagle block) that I have been involved with since the start. Took it apart last month and it is evident it consumes oil by the pint-have since switched him over to the AP line. Use them if you want but I will never equip and engine with them even if the customer requests them ever again. Makes one look real bad. Fuckin scam through and through. J.Rob
Click to expand...



How does pressure build up under the rings if you use a gapless top and have the correct gap on the second ring? Doesn't make sense.

I've used over 100 sets and I have them in my personal engine. Never seen them use oil.
 
The difference between gapless and standard rings would be minimal at best, if the gapless rings work, IMO. Certainly not worth changing them out.
 
yellow rose said:
How does pressure build up under the rings if you use a gapless top and have the correct gap on the second ring? Doesn't make sense.

I've used over 100 sets and I have them in my personal engine. Never seen them use oil.
Click to expand...

Over 100 sets--LOL. If you haven't seen them use oil then you aren't looking close enough. Also--Why don't you share what your second ring gap is? I gap my seconds much larger than most and I doubt you're going to use more. J.Rob
 
RAMM said:
Over 100 sets--LOL. If you haven't seen them use oil then you aren't looking close enough. Also--Why don't you share what your second ring gap is? I gap my seconds much larger than most and I doubt you're going to use more. J.Rob
Click to expand...



Gap depends on bore and application. You know that.

If your stuff uses oil it isn't the rings.

And 100 sets is probably an underestimate. Like I said, they are in my **** now and it isn't using oil.

That's rediculous.
 
just curious, do you run a pvc valve on your engines? or have vacuum from valve cover to intake?
 
yellow rose said:
How does pressure build up under the rings if you use a gapless top and have the correct gap on the second ring? Doesn't make sense.

I've used over 100 sets and I have them in my personal engine. Never seen them use oil.
Click to expand...

I wish the OP would share his experience. We've been down this road more than once. J.Rob
 
yellow rose said:
If it doesn't have gas ports it gets gapless top rings.

Jenkins was correct. You are always going to have some blowby. Even the very best of the best have some. There is a cumulative effect, especially as RPM goes up. You need to run the SECOND ring gap wider than you normally would to get the blowby past the second ring. If you don't, no matter what you do you will unseat the top ring.

I've done more testing on this than it was worth. The better the block, the hone and the piston the less effective the gapless top is. If you are at that point you should be using gas ports.

If you want to see how well a gapless top ring works, do the best prep work you can on a 400 Chevy block and use conventional rings. Put it on the dyno and put a blowby meter on it. Then do nothing but change the rings to a topless set and see how much more ffective they are.
Click to expand...

I don`t agree. I did run both ways on a 383sbc stroker, and an approx. 600 horse sbc 400. I had blowby for an unknown reason, (might have been from washing down the cyl. walls?) Finally tore it down ball honed and installed gapless rings, "end of problem!" Have used both top and second gapless rings and have been satisfied w/ both, altho I seem to prefer top gapless. I have the second gapless total seal in my 505" wedge now, it has more vacuum than it should have w/ my set up. I found the vacuum to go up every time I have used them.------- ?????????? I don`t claim to be as smart as you pro. engine builders, just telling my experience w/ them . I would have liked to try them in one of my old hemi cars, instead of the dykes rings we ran, which worked very well for us ,as long as the piston clearance was good. We did replace them almost every season, or on a tear down for something else.
 
there are countless stories on the internet of people having the same problems as RAMM has stated and i agree with them all . I was talking to john and Allen Armstrong from Nova Scotia these guys build all the race engines on the east coast of Canada and they won't even let them in their shop . They say any decent builder would never use them . I was told if they were the **** for Dolly every auto maker would be using them in their performance engines . now my experience with them I used two sets both used copious amounts of oil with little to no blow by . I think the top ring seals so good that there is no gasses getting by to the second ring which is the oil control ring to let it hold against the cylinder and do it's job .now this is just my opinion and I am damn sure no pro .
 
jimjimjimmy said:
there are countless stories on the internet of people having the same problems as RAMM has stated and i agree with them all . I was talking to john and Allen Armstrong from Nova Scotia these guys build all the race engines on the east coast of Canada and they won't even let them in their shop . They say any decent builder would never use them . I was told if they were the **** for Dolly every auto maker would be using them in their performance engines . now my experience with them I used two sets both used copious amounts of oil with little to no blow by . I think the top ring seals so good that there is no gasses getting by to the second ring which is the oil control ring to let it hold against the cylinder and do it's job .now this is just my opinion and I am damn sure no pro .
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have a couple of pro. mech. friends that don`t see a need for them, but my experience is diff. They have cured my blowby problems on the sbc engines, I suspect the walls weren`t perfect, and in a perfect world are probably not needed. I screwed around and got my gaps too wide for my liking when I built this 440/505 wedge, and just bought the gapless replaceing them for the hell of it since they worked for me in the past. By the way, my 505 has never used any oil-----yet! Using a formula that you guys were bragging on being so close to dyno figures, (which I don`t know about), it supposedly making 723 h.p. , make ur own conclusions !????????
 
jimjimjimmy said:
there are countless stories on the internet of people having the same problems as RAMM has stated and i agree with them all . I was talking to john and Allen Armstrong from Nova Scotia these guys build all the race engines on the east coast of Canada and they won't even let them in their shop . They say any decent builder would never use them . I was told if they were the **** for Dolly every auto maker would be using them in their performance engines . now my experience with them I used two sets both used copious amounts of oil with little to no blow by . I think the top ring seals so good that there is no gasses getting by to the second ring which is the oil control ring to let it hold against the cylinder and do it's job .now this is just my opinion and I am damn sure no pro .
Click to expand...




I don't want to name drop but I will tell you this. Most shops that build PS level engines don't use gapless top rings for two reasons. Most of that stuff goes out wth gas posts.

The second reason is they will pull an engine down on the dyno and close the top ring gap until it shows butting. Then they open the gap just enough to stop the butting, essentially running a gapless top ring.



Again, if you can't get the rings sealed it isn't the rings.


BTW, the pressure differential between the crankcase and the area above the rings is what evacuates the oil off the cylinder wall. So any, that's ANY blow by decreases oil control.

This **** is so basic it should be known.
 
yellow rose said:
the pressure differential between the crankcase and the area above the rings is what evacuates the oil off the cylinder wall. So any, that's ANY blow by decreases oil control.
Click to expand...
I'm having some trouble understanding this; Isn't the area above the rings, actually the chamber?
 
jimjimjimmy said:
there are countless stories on the internet of people having the same problems as RAMM has stated and i agree with them all . I was talking to john and Allen Armstrong from Nova Scotia these guys build all the race engines on the east coast of Canada and they won't even let them in their shop . They say any decent builder would never use them . I was told if they were the **** for Dolly every auto maker would be using them in their performance engines . now my experience with them I used two sets both used copious amounts of oil with little to no blow by . I think the top ring seals so good that there is no gasses getting by to the second ring which is the oil control ring to let it hold against the cylinder and do it's job .now this is just my opinion and I am damn sure no pro .
Click to expand...


The second ring is the scraper ring... the third ring is the oil ring.
 
Krooser said:
The second ring is the scraper ring... the third ring is the oil ring.
Click to expand...
NO gas ports on street engines for me, don`t know anyone running ports
on street engines. Believe what u want , just stating my experience w/ them. 3 diff engines and they did what I wanted. By the way, the 406sbc would eat a 500 rat alive, " both in pick ups.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I'm having some trouble understanding this; Isn't the area above the rings, actually the chamber?
Click to expand...


You have it correct. If you have 100% leak across the rings you'll have zero oil control. As long as the pressure is higher above the rings than in the crankcase the oil will come off the walls. The less leak, the higher the pressure above the rings, the better the oil control.
 
famous bob said:
NO gas ports on street engines for me, don`t know anyone running ports
on street engines. Believe what u want , just stating my experience w/ them. 3 diff engines and they did what I wanted. By the way, the 406sbc would eat a 500 rat alive, " both in pick ups.
Click to expand...


I know of dozens of engines on the street running gas ported Pistons. You can bet your bottom dollar if they have a vacuum pump on the engine it has thin rings and gas ports. They may be lateral gas ports, but they are gas ports none the less.
 
yellow rose said:
You have it correct. If you have 100% leak across the rings you'll have zero oil control. As long as the pressure is higher above the rings than in the crankcase the oil will come off the walls. The less leak, the higher the pressure above the rings, the better the oil control.
Click to expand...
Badaboom thx
 
AJ/FormS said:
Badaboom thx
Click to expand...
Hven`t seen any vacuum pumps lately around here, the last one I saw was mine for brakes only tho. Full street motors that need vacuum pumps either have a too big cam, or a ring problem. Not talking race engines here ! I was just stating that whatever problem I had on the sbc engines, the gapless rings fixed it ! You can argue all u want but facts are facts in my case. Done w/ this !
 
Remember last year I had a low buck 340 build on here...it used gap less rings....ask me how much oil it used last summer....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top