Goodbye Crane Flat Tappet. I hardly knew ye.

[mopar head]

Did you look at oil press. gauge when all this went down?
The reason I ask is, I once decided to treat my 340 to some synthetic.
Within a week or so I fired it up and heard rattling, looked at gauge, no pressure, wtf?
I dumped that oil, changed filter, put back in my 5w30 valvoline, wala, pressure came back.
No more synthetics for me. go figure...:coffee2:

 

[younggun2.0]

be very very careful with oil choices guys. even the diesel oils like rotella are taking out the zinc. I use the brad penn oils. they are designed to work specifically with out mech. lifter cams. its $7 a qt at my local speed shop. Knowing an oil company is making an oil that is specifically designed to work with our old school cams why the heck would you use anything else?

 

[VonCramp]

With every cam you get a recommended spring. The springs on your new heads could have much more seat and open pressures. That and 1.6 rockers and different heads changes a lot of different things that your old cam might not like.

So, maybe too much spring pressure? I am going solid roller next time around.

 

[Captainkirk]

be very very careful with oil choices guys. even the diesel oils like rotella are taking out the zinc. I use the brad penn oils. they are designed to work specifically with out mech. lifter cams. its $7 a qt at my local speed shop. Knowing an oil company is making an oil that is specifically designed to work with our old school cams why the heck would you use anything else?

Right. Back in the day, I always used Castrol GTX 20W50. It's what I would run today if my engine was back together, if I didn't think about it. But this makes me wonder...have they eliminated the zinc or neutered it to the point where it would induce cam failure today? (having altered it for today's "modern engines"?) Point is, I don't know. We assume much without knowing. Before I choose an oil I will read the damn label. Thanks for the heads-up on the Brad Penn.
On the cam failure...changing anything (such as rocker ratio) can alter the wear pattern on the lobes and lifters and induce wear. This is why my builder talked me out of re-using my old cam, which appeared perfectly good. New build, new cam. Period.

 

[VonCramp]

Did you look at oil press. gauge when all this went down?
The reason I ask is, I once decided to treat my 340 to some synthetic.
Within a week or so I fired it up and heard rattling, looked at gauge, no pressure, wtf?
I dumped that oil, changed filter, put back in my 5w30 valvoline, wala, pressure came back.
No more synthetics for me. go figure...:coffee2:

I did drop from 60 to 50 psi overnight. Also another reason I decided to pull the intake off. I was always told that once the cam is broken in that zinc didn't really matter. Is that incorrect?

 

[mopar head]

I did drop from 60 to 50 psi overnight. Also another reason I decided to pull the intake off. I was always told that once the cam is broken in that zinc didn't really matter. Is that incorrect?

From what I understand zinc does matter! But I was ignorant to this info until I got on this forum,years ago. I Have yet to use a zinc rich oil and after 40k miles I`m gonna pay for it. I`ve got a few front lifters showing a wear issue that I need to address with a new cam/lifters.
I told a buddy of the synthetic/pressure issue and he was thinking the syn. may have broke loose any/all crap in engine and clogged the filter? that pressure issue I had is no bs. This happened years ago, been driving the car ever since, When I do a new cam, I will have the proper oil or go roller, I`m thinking roller and heck with the high$ oil. I don`t know, either/or may balance equal in cost overall or long term?

 

[RustyRatRod]

I did drop from 60 to 50 psi overnight. Also another reason I decided to pull the intake off. I was always told that once the cam is broken in that zinc didn't really matter. Is that incorrect?

Evidently not, huh?

 

[Captainkirk]

Evidently not, huh?

You crack me up...LOL!

Thanks...just spit coffee all over the screen....

 

[younggun2.0]

From what I understand zinc does matter! But I was ignorant to this info until I got on this forum,years ago. I Have yet to use a zinc rich oil and after 40k miles I`m gonna pay for it. I`ve got a few front lifters showing a wear issue that I need to address with a new cam/lifters.
I told a buddy of the synthetic/pressure issue and he was thinking the syn. may have broke loose any/all crap in engine and clogged the filter? that pressure issue I had is no bs. This happened years ago, been driving the car ever since, When I do a new cam, I will have the proper oil or go roller, I`m thinking roller and heck with the high$ oil. I don`t know, either/or may balance equal in cost overall or long term?

what a decent regular oil cost? $4-5 a qt.? penn grade and such are 7-8 bucks. so if you have a 7 qt pan your talking $21 bucks more an oil change. How often do you change oil? every 6 months for me. my car see's less then 1500 miles a year. so thats like $42 a yr. Whats a roller cam and lifter set cost? $500-800? just food for thought. not trashing anyone or there thinking. just debating here. NO HARD FEELINGS.

Here is my thinking.........

Our engines were designed in a different time. They used an oil from that generation. Today's engines have evolved and have different requirements, thus a different oil. That is why I insist on using an oil formulated for my dinosaur engine.

 

[flyfish]

Yes, zinc does matter...but more specifically, it is the phosphate molecule that attached to the zinc that saves your bacon in a flat tappet engine...the shiny zinc just gets all the credit. With that, the problem with oils and additives you can put into your oil lies with the balance. If you have a high level of detergents (that want to get rid of the phosphate) and you add zinc (usually in the form of ZDDP) they could somewhat cancel out from a chemical protection perspective.

TMI, I know...but I thought I would throw my 2 (nerd) cents at the conversation.

 

[Mopar to ya]

I'm just going to throw this out there, not to hijack this thread. I bought five or six cases of 20W50 Valvoline VR1 synthetic oil when O'reilly closed it out. I don't use it, but figured someone would. I paid $3.29 a quart and will sell it for that. I personally use Amsoil Zrod in 20W50 in my 408. Flat tappets should use high zinc at all times from what I have read.

 

[VonCramp]

Evidently not, huh?

What purpose does it serve when an elitist Mopar guru replies with a smart *** answer? I hadn't ran a high zinc oil in years. The cam was nine years old until it suddenly failed. Unfortunately I installed new heads and changed the type of oil at the same time. That is why I posted this thread. I would greatly appreciate you not responding to anymore of my threads. However, I am sure you have a witty response for that as well. I have to wonder if you literally just sit around all day waiting to jump on some guy's thread who isn't a super genius like yourself just so you can berate him and show FABO just how cool you really are.

 

[Captainkirk]

I hadn't ran a high zinc oil in years. The cam was nine years old until it suddenly failed. Unfortunately I installed new heads and changed the type of oil at the same time.

Unfortunately, they have been quietly reducing the amounts of zinc and phosphorus in conventional motor oils for quite some time with very little said about it. And the fact is, these motor oils are not compatible with the "dinosaur engines" we are running. Changing up the valve train configuration and type of oil was the death knell for your cam...it's a damn shame you had to find out the hard way. Going with a better oil and a roller cam would be the best preventive maintenance for a future occurrence...I wish you luck on the build.

 

[VonCramp]

Unfortunately, they have been quietly reducing the amounts of zinc and phosphorus in conventional motor oils for quite some time with very little said about it. And the fact is, these motor oils are not compatible with the "dinosaur engines" we are running. Changing up the valve train configuration and type of oil was the death knell for your cam...it's a damn shame you had to find out the hard way. Going with a better oil and a roller cam would be the best preventive maintenance for a future occurrence...I wish you luck on the build.

Thanks for a very thoughtful and insightful response. I wish I hadn't blown up at RRR'S response but I love my car and it is stressful when something happens to it. Plus, Mopar stuff just isn't cheap. Not to mention ever since bolting the procomp stuff on I've had nothing but sorrow. So, cam failure is the cherry on top of this big adventure.

 

[Captainkirk]

Thanks for a very thoughtful and insightful response. I wish I hadn't blown up at RRR'S response but I love my car and it is stressful when something happens to it. Plus, Mopar stuff just isn't cheap. Not to mention ever since bolting the procomp stuff on I've had nothing but sorrow. So, cam failure is the cherry on top of this big adventure.

I hear you. But it could have been worse. If the cam truly lunched and sent chunks throughout the bottom end and oil pump, you could be looking at a total rebuild. Count your blessings.
And keep us posted on which cam and grind you choose. Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[CPDave]

Yep all flat tappet cams need a high zinc (ZDDP) oil to live long & prosper. There was a discussion of oil formulation recently on a vintage road racing mailing list I belong to (from various posts):
...
Brad penn 20/50 synthetic blend PPM zinc 1500z PPM phos 1400P

Mobil 1 0/50 or 0/30 racing PPM zinc 1850z PPM phos 1750P

Mobil 1 v/twin 20/50 or 10/40 mc racing PPM zinc 1700z PPM phos 1600p
...
We use VR1 20w/50 for our customers with older engines that do not want to use synthetic – I strongly recommend synthetics for everything and have been using them in race cars, rally cars, tow vehicles and everything else since around 1992 (included in that list is pre-war vehicles) While the VR1 does have a enough zinc in it to just be OK for flat tappet vehicles it makes it by the skin of its teeth – it is street legal and carries an SN rating – it is just a bit too high for extended use in that rating – which is why, though it is technically street legal, it comes with a warning that it “may not be suitable for extended use in cars with catalytic convertors – a few years ago it was classed as not street legal but they lowered the sulphated ash and zinc levels – and the sulphated ash is as important or perhaps a bit more than the zinc – zinc will not work with out the ash

We use Amsoil – they have 3 products that fit your needs – the highest zinc and ash is to be found in 2 of the products – 10/30 and 20w/50 Zrod oil and then they make a full line of races oils but they actually are a little less in the zinc and ash – modern race cars are not flat tappet – there are other reasons besides cat life to lower zinc and ash – Brad Penn has some – read the labels closely if you have sm or sn ratings you barely squeak by and it is other chemicals in the additive package you are now relying on – Castrol supposedly has one – 20w/50 synthetic – but I trust them anymore about as far as I can toss my Jag – they and their engineers left me hanging out to dry when this mess all started a few years back – we were a dealer and I was friendly with some guys in the R&D departments –

Just because an oil says it is high or has a high SAP rating does not mean it is high enough for you – Pull the data sheet and actually read each number– to be correct for older flat tappet the highest rating can be SJ or SL – if you have any ratings higher than that the SAP package has been changed to meet the API ratings and if you look at the data sheets you may find that other numbers went up but the two you are most interested went down
...
I now use Amsoil DOMINATOR® 15W-50 Racing Oil. Lowered my oil temps about 20 deg. F. and it also is doing a better job of protecting my gearbox which unfortunately shares the oil with the engine (Mini). I have used Valvoline and Alisyn in the past and switched to Amsoil. Very pleased.
...

End of quoted material.

Me? I use roller cams but also run Brad Penn 20w50 Racing Oil. Roller cams are more expensive but a are good for more than just avoiding lifter ware. They also free up power and improve milage by reducing the internal friction of the engine and help make more power by permitting faster valve opening and closing events. This is why a roller cam that has the same basic specs as a flat tappet will usually beat the flatty by 25-30 HP. Yep, they cost more, they also make more power.

Dave

 

[RustyRatRod]

What purpose does it serve when an elitist Mopar guru replies with a smart *** answer? I hadn't ran a high zinc oil in years. The cam was nine years old until it suddenly failed. Unfortunately I installed new heads and changed the type of oil at the same time. That is why I posted this thread. I would greatly appreciate you not responding to anymore of my threads. However, I am sure you have a witty response for that as well. I have to wonder if you literally just sit around all day waiting to jump on some guy's thread who isn't a super genius like yourself just so you can berate him and show FABO just how cool you really are.

How many F%$&ing times do you have to be told something? I answered NON smartass the first time, yet you keep asking over and over again.

What does it take to get through? Don't try to dump this off on me. Maybe try listening to the first response before being a total hard head and going on and on asking the same thing. In fact, I am not the only one who told you it needed zinc all along before my second post. I cannot help it if you are illiterate. It's not my job to educate you.

 

[RJK3]

How many F%$&ing times do you have to be told something? I answered NON smartass the first time, yet you keep asking over and over again.

What does it take to get through? Don't try to dump this off on me. Maybe try listening to the first response before being a total hard head and going on and on asking the same thing. In fact, I am not the only one who told you it needed zinc all along before my second post. I cannot help it if you are illiterate. It's not my job to educate you.

Yet you feel the need to force your opinion down everyone's throat. And God forbid they seek further info.
There must be a scary beastly presence looking over your shoulder, forcing you to click on ALL of these threads?

 

[RustyRatRod]

I don't care whose advice he chooses. He's had more than just me tell him the same thing.

It's about listening to anyone when they have good advice. I don't give a damn who it is.

So, it's MY opinion that flat tappets need zinc? Seriously? I am forcing THAT OPINION down someone's throat?

Hate to tell you but that's a fact.

It's not about anybody agreeing with me. I really don't give a damn. My vehicles run good. No wiped lobes. I run the right stuff. People don't want to listen to good advice? People want to not acknowledge good advice when it's given? From whomever? Fine with me. I could care less really.

There are a lot of people here that give perfectly good advice and got ignored. Every. Single Day.

Here's an idea. Disagree with me......and everyone else. Don't run zinc. Please. It's not my stuff that's gonna tear up.

You know what? Screw all of yall little piss ants that don't want to listen. I am done trying to help with good advice, have it ignored and then get it thrown back at me when I get smart about it. F%&K all yall and the horses yall rode in on. I am through.

 

[RJK3]

Well, that was easy.

 

[alpha13]

I don't think synthetic oil would be an immediate cause of a flat cam. I would think it would have something to do with spring pressure and those new 1.6 rockers. I've always used regular oil in all my old stuff. Until I found oil on summit racing called Classic Car and Hot Rod Oil. It's advertised as having proper amounts of zinc for older flat tapped engines. So I don't use an additive anymore.

 

[alpha13]

I guess some of these other guys seem to think so. I suppose running synthetic just for a little bit can kill it? Like I said I don't use synthetic so I don't have any real world advice.

 

[1970Duster]

Put a roller cam in it and you'll never have to worry about it again.

 

[flyfish]

Put a roller cam in it and you'll never have to worry about it again.

I agree...This is what I did 6 years ago, no more worries, no more cam break in, life is good.

 

[Bulldozer]

Oil without enough zinc probably.

So, zinc is a must even after years of service?

Yes. Flat tappets must have zinc.

yes, zinc is a must even after breaking with a flat tappet.

I've heard much the same. New oils are low in zinc or zinc-free due to catalytic converters. Does anyone know of a zinc or high-zinc additive that can be added to standard motor oils?

Just use a standard motor oil with high zinc content.

Ask at your parts store, they can give you an additive for your oil.

cough cough mobil 1 0w40 5w50 and 15w50 and mobil 1 racing oils have a bunch of zinc in them

even the diesel oils like rotella are taking out the zinc. I use the brad penn oils. they are designed to work specifically with out mech. lifter cams. its $7 a qt at my local speed shop. Knowing an oil company is making an oil that is specifically designed to work with our old school cams why the heck would you use anything else?

I was always told that once the cam is broken in that zinc didn't really matter. Is that incorrect?

obviously , it does matter or these people wouldn't be telling you it does.

From what I understand zinc does matter! But I was ignorant to this info until I got on this forum,years ago.

Yes, zinc does matter...but more specifically, it is the phosphate molecule that attached to the zinc that saves your bacon in a flat tappet engine...

Flat tappets should use high zinc at all times from what I have read.

I hadn't ran a high zinc oil in years. I am sure you have a witty response for that as well. I have to wonder if you literally just sit around all day waiting to jump on some guy's thread who isn't a super genius like yourself just so you can berate him and show FABO just how cool you really are.

you are the one that is picking this fight. you really should grow a pair instead of talking out your ***

Yep all flat tappet cams need a high zinc (ZDDP) oil to live long & prosper.

Yet you feel the need to force your opinion down everyone's throat. And God forbid they seek further info.
There must be a scary beastly presence looking over your shoulder, forcing you to click on ALL of these threads?

no body was forcing anything down any bodies throat , if this were YellowBullet , I would tell you what should be forced down your throat. look at all the replies that were basically ignored. RRR was extremely polite and helpful with his first 2 replies and the OP still asked the same question again as if everybody were just talking out their asses. it gets really ******* old when people try to help people and they are just blown off like they are just posting BS. then you have 7 people saying the same thing and the OP still doesn't believe.

Well, that was easy.

no its not that easy. buckle up for the long haul bud , you are just looking for it.
the way I see it , the OP has been told 12 times that a zinc rich oil is pretty much paramount in these old engines. nobody is going away , I can promise you that.
you obviously cant see the help that rusty offers around here. look at his "thank yous". yea he can be abrasive sometimes , but we all can including me , but when people just ignore the help being offered and don't like what they read and chalk it up as bullshit it gets really annoying.