HEI ignition conversion

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howco4

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I found a web site offering a fairly simple HEI conversion for older mopar ignition systems. I'm going to archive this site. It might be worth a look for those who would like to eliminate the ballast resistor. Check it out.
www.designed2drive.com
 
Only issue is that it DOES NOT ELIMINATE the need for a ballast resistor!!!!

Regardless what the person selling the brackets states the need for a ballast resistor is a function of the design of the coil. GM HEI systems did not use a ballast because the coil was an e-core type that did not require a ballast to limit current flow and over heating.

If you still use a stock mopar coil or an aftermarket coil like a Blaster II you will still need a ballast resistor. If you purchase a coil that does not need a ballast resistor then you can eliminate it and use the mopar ecu to trigger the ignition.

The only advantage to this system is a little less wiring and performance versions of the HEI module are slightly less expensive than MP modules but factoring in the cost of the bracket it may wind up being a wash .
 
You may be right on that issue. It is still an interesting conversion. Might save a buck or two. HC
 
The ballast resistor is function of the module or points not the coil. For example on a Mopar ignition you use a different ballast resistor for either the orange box and chrome box(1 ohm) or the gold box (.25 ohm) this has nothing to do with the coil. When I was a GM guy in the early 80's I used an external Accel Super Coil on my HEI without a ballast resistor for 2 years with no failure (was a daily driver with weekend racing). In a breaker point application the ballast resistor protects the points from burning. I had a '55 Chevrolet pickup that kept burning points. It turned out the previous owner had the ballast resistor wired wrong (he had the start and run wires reversed).

Now I would not convert to an HEI on my Mopar for the reason of eliminating the ballast resistor, It is probaby the most trouble free part of the Mopar igntion system.
 
I did send the owner of the web site an inquiry, asking for more info, (none received yet). As I recall, the ballast is a protective element use whenever points are used to discharge the voltage buildup in the coil. The ballast resistor acts to lower the operating voltage after startup, The previous post had a good take on this. Will post any data I receive on said subject.
 
340mopar said:
The ballast resistor is function of the module or points not the coil. For example on a Mopar ignition you use a different ballast resistor for either the orange box and chrome box(1 ohm) or the gold box (.25 ohm) this has nothing to do with the coil. When I was a GM guy in the early 80's I used an external Accel Super Coil on my HEI without a ballast resistor for 2 years with no failure (was a daily driver with weekend racing). In a breaker point application the ballast resistor protects the points from burning. I had a '55 Chevrolet pickup that kept burning points. It turned out the previous owner had the ballast resistor wired wrong (he had the start and run wires reversed).

Now I would not convert to an HEI on my Mopar for the reason of eliminating the ballast resistor, It is probaby the most trouble free part of the Mopar igntion system.

Nope! Everything to do with the coil!

Start with a points system: The condensor (or capacitor if you prefer) across the points is what keeps them from burning. As the points open all current flow is shunted through the condensor until it's charged up. By the time that happens the points are open far enough that the gap is two wide for an arc. It's the arcing that will burn points. Can't comment on your 55, but rest assured the reason the ballast was designed into the system was not to protect the points from burning.

A little explanation on what a ballast does: As current flows through a ballast it heats up (I'm sure we have all burned our fingers on one) as it heats up the resistance goes up. As resistance goes up current flow is reduced.

Why is this important in an ignition system?
A little explanation on how the coil works will hopefully clear that up:

When current flows through the primary windings of a coil it creates a magnetic field. This field will envelope the secondary windings. If you abruptly stop the current flow (points open or ecu switches off) the magnetic field collapses resulting in a voltage potential on the secondary windings. Once this potential builds up to a level that can jump the plug gap you have a spark.

Sounds simple and it is but the hitch is it takes time for this magnetic field to build up (refered to as saturation) which means as the rpms of the engine increase the time gets shorter for this to happen. So, just when the engine needs a hotter spark to ignite the mixture the ignition system is getting weaker.

What to do? Well you can increase the voltage (for constant resistance a voltage increase will increase current flow) so I can get adequate spark at high rpm but I run the risk of over heating the coil at low rpms (an espeically in a points system where the engine is not running the ignition is on and the points are closed). Here's where the ballast comes in. You can design a coil that with full battery votage will make a nice hot spark to help the car start easier (by pass the ballast), have a ballast that limits current flow at low rpms by getting hot and increasing it's resistance and as rpm's increase the resistance goes down (the ballast runs cooler at high rpm's because the time current is flowing between each spark is less) allowing more current flow and a hotter spark when it's needed.

As far as your Accel Super coil story, I have known lots of people that have bypassed the ballast in mopar igntions and got away with it for a long time. From an engineering design standpoint you are over stressing the coil and greatly increasing the probability of a failure. Go look at the specs for the coil and you will see that when used in an "inductive" ignition system (which all igntions but capacitive discharge like an MSD are) it requires a ballast, not only when used in a mopar system.

BTW, how did you use an external coil with a GM HEI? The HEI system has the coil integrated into the cap and the secondary makes direct contact with the rotor, with an external coil you would need a cap that would accomodate a coil wire. Did they ever sell caps like that?

As for the orange and chrome requiring a 1 ohm and the gold a .25 ohm that's easy. The Orange and Chrome are intend for both street and strip use and the Gold is a race only item that is used for short periods of time where the coil does not have time to over heat.

Just a comment about points and electronic and high performance modules. The reason you get a significant boost going from points to electronic is the elimination of the condensor and the faster electronic switching in an ecu. The amount of voltage potential that can be created is also a function of how abruptly the current flow can be stopped and an electronic switch (ecu) is faster. The high performance modules use better components that switch faster and have some extra circuitry to jockey around the dwell time (i.e., amount of time the current flows) to extend the rpm range. They have no impact at low rpm's.
 
So lets see here,I guess the HEI module and the HEI coil out of the cap that I had run for years on my mopar with no ballast and ran from straight off the ignition switch with no problems is just a nother clouded dream cause by the canadian beer,I should be drinking the water down american beer.So the D.U.I. that is sold is another dream that is caused by the beer,and runs the complete OEM GM cap,coil,rotor,and 12Volt power from the ignition,just like the GM cars with no ballast,and is used on small blocks.I guess its time to switch to Jack daniels,never had those flash back problems,mrmopartech
 
Looks like we have a lively debate on HEI conversions. I will attach a response from the web site selling the conversion product. Don't know if text willl work, but here goes.
 

Attachments

  • RE_ Mopar HEI Conversion.txt
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Mrmopartech said:
So lets see here,I guess the HEI module and the HEI coil out of the cap that I had run for years on my mopar with no ballast and ran from straight off the ignition switch with no problems is just a nother clouded dream cause by the canadian beer,I should be drinking the water down american beer.So the D.U.I. that is sold is another dream that is caused by the beer,and runs the complete OEM GM cap,coil,rotor,and 12Volt power from the ignition,just like the GM cars with no ballast,and is used on small blocks.I guess its time to switch to Jack daniels,never had those flash back problems,mrmopartech

You were not paying attention to my first post on this subject!!!!!!!

A GM HEI ignition system does not use a ballast resistor because the coil in cap is an E-core design that does not have the over heating issues associate with an oil filled coil, the system was designed to operate without the ballast. The DUI system is an adaptation of the GM design. I have no idea whether the version using a standard mopar cap with the external module and remote coil requires a ballast or not but it is provided with their coil so I am going to assume the coil is designed to operate a full battery voltage if the instructions state not to use it.

The schematics I have seen of the GM HEI module are the same basic design as the mopar ECU and the early Ford system, an electronic switch that replaces the mechanical switch called points.

So I repeat using an GM HEI module to trigger a mopar ignition system does not eliminate the need for a ballast resistor. If your goal is to eliminate the ballast resistor just purchase a coil that was designed to operate without one, no need to swap modules.
 
howco4 said:
Looks like we have a lively debate on HEI conversions. I will attach a response from the web site selling the conversion product. Don't know if text willl work, but here goes.

So even this guy agrees! you need the ballast if the coil requires one.

I am disapointed that his web page would be so misleading though and imply using the module allows you to elminate the ballast.
 
I agree. I read the web page description again, and with all that has been stated about ballast and coil requirements, this web page leads one to think the ballast can be eliminated by just using this module. (I learned a lot from the discussions however). Howard
 
dgc333 said:
Nope! Everything to do with the coil!

Start with a points system: The condensor (or capacitor if you prefer) across the points is what keeps them from burning. As the points open all current flow is shunted through the condensor until it's charged up. By the time that happens the points are open far enough that the gap is two wide for an arc. It's the arcing that will burn points. Can't comment on your 55, but rest assured the reason the ballast was designed into the system was not to protect the points from burning.

A little explanation on what a ballast does: As current flows through a ballast it heats up (I'm sure we have all burned our fingers on one) as it heats up the resistance goes up. As resistance goes up current flow is reduced.

Why is this important in an ignition system?
A little explanation on how the coil works will hopefully clear that up:

When current flows through the primary windings of a coil it creates a magnetic field. This field will envelope the secondary windings. If you abruptly stop the current flow (points open or ecu switches off) the magnetic field collapses resulting in a voltage potential on the secondary windings. Once this potential builds up to a level that can jump the plug gap you have a spark.

Sounds simple and it is but the hitch is it takes time for this magnetic field to build up (refered to as saturation) which means as the rpms of the engine increase the time gets shorter for this to happen. So, just when the engine needs a hotter spark to ignite the mixture the ignition system is getting weaker.

What to do? Well you can increase the voltage (for constant resistance a voltage increase will increase current flow) so I can get adequate spark at high rpm but I run the risk of over heating the coil at low rpms (an espeically in a points system where the engine is not running the ignition is on and the points are closed). Here's where the ballast comes in. You can design a coil that with full battery votage will make a nice hot spark to help the car start easier (by pass the ballast), have a ballast that limits current flow at low rpms by getting hot and increasing it's resistance and as rpm's increase the resistance goes down (the ballast runs cooler at high rpm's because the time current is flowing between each spark is less) allowing more current flow and a hotter spark when it's needed.

As far as your Accel Super coil story, I have known lots of people that have bypassed the ballast in mopar igntions and got away with it for a long time. From an engineering design standpoint you are over stressing the coil and greatly increasing the probability of a failure. Go look at the specs for the coil and you will see that when used in an "inductive" ignition system (which all igntions but capacitive discharge like an MSD are) it requires a ballast, not only when used in a mopar system.

BTW, how did you use an external coil with a GM HEI? The HEI system has the coil integrated into the cap and the secondary makes direct contact with the rotor, with an external coil you would need a cap that would accomodate a coil wire. Did they ever sell caps like that?

As for the orange and chrome requiring a 1 ohm and the gold a .25 ohm that's easy. The Orange and Chrome are intend for both street and strip use and the Gold is a race only item that is used for short periods of time where the coil does not have time to over heat.

Just a comment about points and electronic and high performance modules. The reason you get a significant boost going from points to electronic is the elimination of the condensor and the faster electronic switching in an ecu. The amount of voltage potential that can be created is also a function of how abruptly the current flow can be stopped and an electronic switch (ecu) is faster. The high performance modules use better components that switch faster and have some extra circuitry to jockey around the dwell time (i.e., amount of time the current flows) to extend the rpm range. They have no impact at low rpm's.

Some comments and questions;

I am aware of the function of the condensor, but believe me put full 12v to a coil and see what happens to the points. Before I found what was wrong I had to file the points about every 3 days to get the truck to start.

With your explaination about the Gold box being a race only because of the .25 ohm resistor that means that I can use it on the street with a 1 ohm resistor? I am having trouble buying that. I would have thought mopar would mention something about that if it was only the .25 ohm resistor that was the culprit. Also race doesn't only mean short term drag race. I have a gold box on my drag car and circle car and have had no failures of the one on the circle car because if you look at the mopar performance book it means by race only as no extented use under 3500rpm.

How I used the external coil was I removed the coil and modified the coil cover with a male terminal at the top to accept a coil wire and on the inside a .25" brass rod extending down to the rotor brush.

Lastly, the examples I gave were factual things that I did, I am not saying it was right and maybe I would have had a failure someday, but you must agree it is very hard to accept written word over actual experiences.

I will take into consideration what you have said and mainly because you did not take it personal about the things I said, you see that alot on web sites when someone disagrees. I mean nothing personal on the things I have said. Your response was well written, could be a load, but because the way it was written it deserves some looking into.

Good Work,
Chuck
 
Personnel experience is a powerful and generally an excellent gage of what works and what doesn't. I can understand the reluctance to believe all you read on the web. I am the same way. Everything I read I filter through my education (degrees in electronics, aero-space and computer science) and 33 years as an engineer. I also do a lot of research and reading on all things automotive (been a gear head since I was 12 and got my first car to drive in the fields behind the house). I have a friend that has made a career out of designing transformers (coil is just a transformer) and noway pretend to know or understand all the subtleties in how a transformer perfroms but I do understand the basics.

I have no explanation as to why your 55 would burn up points without a ballast resistor. The points I have had experience have enough metal in there construction that to get enough current flow to burn them would over heat and melt the insulation of the wiring feeding the ignition.

As for the gold box it would likely work just fine in a street application with a stock coil and the ballast to go with it. When used in conjunction with the recommended coil and ballast it's not supposed to be run for long periods of time below 3000 rpm. The reason being the coil will over heat and fail. Being race only the design compromises I talked about before were biased to high rpm operation at the expense of being able to site and idle in track or cruise around at rpm's less than 3000.

I try to contribute in a positive way and if some one will consider what I have tried to convey or I can save some one from being stuck at the side of the road I am happy.
 
I did this swap on my 73 scamp with a 360 about 4 years ago and I have never had a problem with it. No ballast resistor, ECU or ignition box on my firewall anymore. You will over heat and fry the stock coil so just use a blaster 2 or a moroso coil. I also swapped to a GM one wire alternator while I was at it.

I did the same swap on my girlfriends 72 scamp with a 225.


http://duster.netfirms.com/tech/hei.html

This is the page that I used for a guide.
 
I have a friend thats been using gm hei distributors for years in his 318 derby engines and there the best starting 318s ive ever heard not saying its the way to go but might be worth looking into
 
Chris-B said:
I have a friend thats been using gm hei distributors for years in his 318 derby engines and there the best starting 318s ive ever heard not saying its the way to go but might be worth looking into


You want a good starting 318,
LOL, ;) Use a Dakota small starter.
Weighs less, uses less amperage, and spins the engine Faster.

I use Electronic ignition on my 1964 Valiant, reused the stock coil;
I had a spare Module box for 20 years +,
and bought a "New" reman dist for a 1973 340 Duster at the
local Advance Auto parts, and the wiring harness
from my local Mopar dealer {Albany Dodge},

You can do this at current prices for about $100.
with all "New" parts, and if your car ever breaks down on the road,
there are no "custom" parts to buy, you just buy parts for a
1973-74 car, that are easy to find.

It cost me $10. for the wiring harness, {Wow its up to $19.95 now}
$5. for the Module at a swap meet, and I have another spare Module
I bought on Ebay for $12. shipped. A new Module at Advance Auto
is $25. - $30.00. Part Number: EL110 Our Price: $23.48

The distributor was about $6. cheaper, than current price 2 years ago;
Part Number: 303890 Our Price: $46.46
Core Charge: $10.00


http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=A1C&mfrpartnumber=303890&parttype=218&ptset=A

Wiring harness via Summit linked;

http://store.summitracing.com/partd...art=DCC-3690152&N=700+301014+115&autoview=sku

http://www.ozmopars.50megs.com/slant6electronicignitionconversion.htm
 
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