Help... Vin #'s dont match

[1967 'cuda]

The core, matched the title, which DIDNT match the speaker tray, its ONE vehicle with a title from a differant vehicle

So if the core #s correspond to the dash VIN #s and the title but didn't match the speaker tray I wouldn't be too concerned. The O.P. had said it had been used as a drag car in a previous life. There's a good chance that speaker tray may have needed replacing if it was cut for roll bar clearance. That still wouldn't mean it's been re-bodied.

 

[replicaracer43]

Thank you Jimharvard,gumper and 72bluNblu for the rational and non -condensending answer to my question. Some keyboard commando's here just want to call people morons and such because they know best...which helps no body... I hope the OP get's it straightened out and gets to enjoy his car.

All MY comments WERE rational, and the only condensending comments on my part were directed to people who posted in favor of fraud. I also hope the OP gets things straighnted out, but if it were not for the mentality of SOME people in this post, he wouldnt have ever had this problem.......

 

[SGBARRACUDA]

7 pages in a little more than 24 hrs. That has to be a record?

 

[replicaracer43]

So if the core #s correspond to the dash VIN #s and the title but didn't match the speaker tray I wouldn't be too concerned. The O.P. had said it had been used as a drag car in a previous life. There's a good chance that speaker tray may have needed replacing if it was cut for roll bar clearance. That still wouldn't mean it's been re-bodied.

Hes already been TOLD its a rebody of 2 cars.................

 

[Back in Time]

All MY comments WERE rational, and the only condensending comments on my part were directed to people who posted in favor of fraud. I also hope the OP gets things straighnted out, but if it were not for the mentality of SOME people in this post, he wouldnt have ever had this problem.......

If the shoe fits...

 

[replicaracer43]

If the shoe fits...

LOL

 

[Back in Time]

I learned a lot in this thread....I think.Never did I think that if I had a legal title to a car then changed the core support and package tray without getting some government agency involved I would possibly no longer have a "legal" car and title.

 

[replicaracer43]

I learned a lot in this thread....I think.Never did I think that if I had a legal title to a car then changed the core support and package tray without getting some government agency involved I would possibly no longer have a "legal" car and title.

Really, the whole issue is that a title is a simple peice of paper, and if you have that VIN tag from a car that goes with the paperwork, you could steal a nice car, install your VIN tag and if everyone veiwed it like most on here, it would be "no problem" Thats why there are laws on the books. The OP was sort of takin, partialy by his own lack of research, but its sad that people think deception is ok..........bassically my whole point.

 

[DECIPHER]

Whole fronts rears even frames of trucks get replaced every day on wrecked cars with new and used parts no law is required to be involved as no laws are being broken just because some heavy. Collision repairs were done in the past does not make anything illegal. Again there are a lot of keyboard commandos who all "know" in depth history of a car from a couple paragraphs from a auto owner who is learning....

 

[Mr Gorsky]

The OP was sort of takin, partialy by his own lack of research, but its sad that people think deception is ok..........bassically my whole point.

Actually, your whole point was that the rest of us are dumbasses.

"We" don't think deception is okay. "We" just realise that these cars are 40-50 years old and that it's unrealistic to expect them to have the same OEM Westinghouse headlamps installed after all these years. Originality is all just a matter of degrees.

Graveyard Carz will replace every single panel on that phantom Cuda, but it won't be a "rebody" because it'll retain the OEM firewall!!

You number Nazi's need to join the real world.

 

[72bluNblu]

the thread that i started titled "Interesting VIN # on a 68 Barracuda" is still here on FABO. a number of people responded and it includes a lot of good information. i would recommend it to anyone worried about a VIN number.

with that said, please allow me to share some thoughts based upon my 29 years of practicing criminal law here in pittsburgh, pennsylvania.

1. i am most familiar with 67-69 barracuda VIN numbers - i have 2 69s and 2 68's.
2. IF you are buying a car to drive and keep for yourself, the accuracy of the VIN number on that car may never become a problem. however, if you have some suspicions about the car and/or the VIN number, it is possible that the police may knock on your door someday with a warrant to confiscate your car because your VIN number has shown up on a "stolen car" list. assuming that you had no part in the theft of the car, you will not go to jail but you probably will lose the car.
3. IF you purchase a car under "suspicious" circumstances - like getting a "really good deal" on a "really valuable car" and you have actual knowledge that their might be an issue regarding the VIN number, you run the risk of being charged with participating in the commission of a crime - like "perpetrating a fraud" or "receipt of stolen property" or "conspiracy to commit fraud" or some other similar doctrine outlined in your state's criminal code.
4. IF you SELL a car knowing full well that there is an issue with the accuracy of the VIN number on that car - you have a VERY GOOD chance of crossing paths with the local police or local Prosecuting/District Attorney. there are two general types of Criminal conduct in all 50 States: crimes that are crimes simply if certain acts are committed (think statutory rape - er go "ignorance of the law is no excuse) and crimes that are ONLY crimes if the person committing the act "intended" to commit a crime (think theft, assault, kidnapping, destruction of property, arson, etc.). when a person sells a car that they know may not have the correct VIN number, they are "intentionally deceiving" the buyer - and that is a crime in all 50 states AND under Federal Law. this is a very different legal standard than just not telling a buyer that the motor has a noise in it or the clutch is probably bad. alteration of VIN #'s has been made a "specific" criminal violation under Federal and State law.
5. so how much of a car can you "repair" and what must you not "alter?" the simple answer is - you CANNOT "alter" IN ANY WAY the VIN number on a particular car - meaning - you CANNOT take a dash with a VIN number on it and put it in a different car; you CANNOT cut out the metal panel with a VIN number on it and put it in another car. you MUST "repair" the specific car that has an ORIGINAL VIN number on it with a CORRECT TITLE "for that car." IF YOU HAVE TWO CARS - one with a good VIN and title that CANNOT BE REPAIRED and one which has no title or VIN but CAN BE REPAIRED, you MUST contact your local State Police (usually they are the correct ones) and tell them you want to RECONSTRUCT and repair the car YOU DO NOT HAVE A TITLE FOR. the State Police will explain how you can obtain a "Reconstructed Title" for the car you are saving. now, any car dealer will tell you that a car with a "reconstructed title" or "salvage title" IS NOT worth as much as a car with "a clean title." that is the reason why most "repair guys" decide to take "the easy route" and simply "swap VINs" from a "clean title" car to the car they are repairing. while that is an easy way to solve this problem - IT IS ILLEGAL TO DO THIS!! - in all 50 states.
6. there is only ONE WAY to avoid all this VIN number concern and worry: examine the car you want to buy and MAKE SURE all the numbers match! if you get ANY stories about a replaced VIN panel or a dash - DO NOT BUY THE CAR! if you absolutely HAVE to buy a car with a questionable VIN number history/compliance, AT LEAST have the police check the VIN number to see if the car was stolen.
7. finally, EVEN IF you never have a police car pull up in your drive way a couple of weeks after you've sold your "restored" collector car (with a shady VIN number past) to a really excited buyer, YOU CAN STILL BE SUED by that unhappy buyer in a CIVIL SUIT if the buyer gets his new toy "examined" by someone who really knows something about collector cars and tells this buyer that "the numbers on this car are all "f...ed up!" in such a suit, even a mediocre lawyer will be able to force you to "reclaim your car" and give the buyer all his money back plus the cost of the law suit and the lawyer's fees.

if there are any lawyers out in FABO land that disagree with any part of this analysis, please let me know as i am confident that i have correctly summarized the state of Federal and State law regarding VIN numbers on vehicles.

Jim Harvard for the win. Strong work sir.

Whole fronts rears even frames of trucks get replaced every day on wrecked cars with new and used parts no law is required to be involved as no laws are being broken just because some heavy. Collision repairs were done in the past does not make anything illegal. Again there are a lot of keyboard commandos who all "know" in depth history of a car from a couple paragraphs from a auto owner who is learning....

Yes, and those cars are titled as salvage or reconstructs if done properly, and the insurance company takes care of all the notifications. The "law" is involved, just not at the shop. The paperwork is done and filed by the insurance company, and all the work is searchable on the cars VIN history report. And if it isn't, well, yes, it's illegal.

 

[DECIPHER]

No they are Not a salvage vehicle is only a vehicle determined by a insurance company to be a total loss by exceeding the insurance companies threshold not what is done to the car or replaced please try to comment on something you have correct knowledge of I have 20 years and your sir are incorrect

 

[72bluNblu]

Actually, your whole point was that the rest of us are dumbasses.

"We" don't think deception is okay. "We" just realise that these cars are 40-50 years old and that it's unrealistic to expect them to have the same OEM Westinghouse headlamps installed after all these years. Originality is all just a matter of degrees.

Graveyard Carz will replace every single panel on that phantom Cuda, but it won't be a "rebody" because it'll retain the OEM firewall!!

You number Nazi's need to join the real world.

Oh please! I'm a number Nazi? Get a grip. I drive a clone for Christs sake.

As for the phantom on graveyard, yes, they'll repair or replace every panel on that car. But I can guarantee that it will all be done with the permission of the DMV and probably with a bunch of the classic car auction guys overseeing it. Not only that, but I'm sure they will do EXACTLY what it takes to get it a clean title, whatever that means to their amount of work. Because it's a hemi car, and hundreds of thousands will be on the line for a reconstruct title.

The point is not that you can't repair these cars, or that you can't change out panels with stamped VINs. The point is that if you start cutting panels with partial VINs there are legal steps you have to take first. If you don't, you run the risk of committing a crime.

 

[replicaracer43]

Actually, your whole point was that the rest of us are dumbasses.

"We" don't think deception is okay. "We" just realise that these cars are 40-50 years old and that it's unrealistic to expect them to have the same OEM Westinghouse headlamps installed after all these years. Originality is all just a matter of degrees.

Graveyard Carz will replace every single panel on that phantom Cuda, but it won't be a "rebody" because it'll retain the OEM firewall!!

You number Nazi's need to join the real world.

I felt bad earlier for calling you in particular a dumbass, or maybe it was "moron" but your posts and stupid logic just back up my observation. We never were talking about freakin headlights, and cars that are legally reconstructed are also not being disscused, we are talking about fraud, mis leading people, and selling cars as numbers matching that are not. The only thing you have done in this thread is show that you would be the LAST person anyone should trust.

 

[72bluNblu]

No they are Not a salvage vehicle is only a vehicle determined by a insurance company to be a total loss by exceeding the insurance companies threshold not what is done to the car or replaced please try to comment on something you have correct knowledge of I have 20 years and your sir are incorrect

You just made my point for me.

Ok, maybe not all of them are salvage titled, I should have been more clear.

But the insurance company IS involved. The work IS reported, and it IS recorded. Maybe the repairs don't rise to the level of a salvage or reconstruct title, but that doesn't mean it isn't reported. A VIN history search will list all of the repairs done if the insurance is involved.

As far as my knowledge goes, I suggest you calm down. You have no idea what my experience or history is. 20 years doesn't trump what I've got.

 

[Mr Gorsky]

How about if one of US comes and steals YOUR car, and installs a dash that has a VIN that matches a title we own? Then we are free to just enjoy the car worry free?

You've been itching for me to answer your question...so here I go .

I've had my Demon stolen. Last month, in fact.

Suffice to say, if you can evade the law and keep it then yes you get to enjoy my car worry free.

 

[SGBARRACUDA]

Seems this subject has been beat to death. If I wreck my 69 Dart Custom and have to clip it at the firewall and replace the whole front section from the frame rails forward with a clip from another Dart and now the core support number doesn't match my VIN, Have I committed a felony?

 

[DECIPHER]

If you understood the joke that car fax is. You would understand. They only check private records nothing states a insurance has to be involved or any body shop "required" to report to a non existent entity. Say you wreck your own car pay the 20k bill your self NO law is broken and the car is fixed

 

[72bluNblu]

Seems this subject has been beat to death. If I wreck my 69 Dart Custom and have to clip it at the firewall and replace the whole front section from the frame rails forward with a clip from another Dart and now the core support number doesn't match my VIN, Have I committed a felony?

Not if you reported it to the DMV or your insurance company (which would make the notifications).

 

[Mr Gorsky]

Oh please! I'm a number Nazi? Get a grip. I drive a clone for Christs sake....

Yes you do. We all do.

Every old school Mopar out there is a clone of the car it once was. It is not the original car. It's panels have been replaced, it's seats are new, it's battery tray is a replica of the original. IT'S ALL A MATTER OF DEGREES.

You are a number Nazi. You see the ultimate parts repair (the whole shell) as illegal. I don't.

I have no issue with rebodies. IT'S ALL A MATTER OF DEGREES.

Yes, it's against the law to rebody a car, but tell me....once you start replacing parts, where does the law tell you to stop??

Riddle me that, Batman.

 

[72bluNblu]

If you understood the joke that car fax is. You would understand. They only check private records nothing states a insurance has to be involved or any body shop "required" to report to a non existent entity. Say you wreck your own car pay the 20k bill your self NO law is broken and the car is fixed

Right back where we started. If your repairing the car involved removing VIN numbers then YES, a law has been broken. If not, then you're good. Yeah, you can remove the entire back half of a Duster and replace it with another car. If you don't involve the package tray VIN stamping, life is good. If you do, well, back to the start of this thread.

 

[DECIPHER]

Why do you think there is some requirement to report? That is why car fax got in hot water. They were over playing what info they really could get or had access to. It's all public record items like police report of a accident or the insurance report of claim paid etc. only if a vehicle is deemed a total loss by a insurance does the law require an inspection to be road worthy again.

 

[SGBARRACUDA]

Not if you reported it to the DMV or your insurance company (which would make the notifications).

Well then I suspect the number of older cars of all makes running around on the road are in the hundreds of thousand that are committing felonious acts. I have built many of classic cars that have had body parts replaced that I never reported to anyone. When I have to take my car by the State Farm insurance office, the most they have ever done is match the dash VIN with the tittle.

 

[DECIPHER]

Package tray smakage tray if it was a new tray from the manufacture it wouldn't have had the number and would be required to stamp it in the new tray the fact the part came from a donor car is not relevant other then it is a sign of extensive repairs

 

[ssba]

Some here want many of the cars here in our hobby
to be legally called a theft, fraud or a criminal act. Even when nothing of such has taken place. This can only result in more negative restrictions allowed into our hobby.
Some will continue to confirm this idea to the powers simply by involving them on every small matter. The feds will devise a new law to generate added revenue so to pasify these squeaky wheels and the rest of us will have to pay as well. They will say the existing law is not working and many criminally owned and operated vintage cars are slipping under our radar every day. For everyones good we will collect a manditory inspection fee and confiscate non conforming cars to be destroyed. They will see it as a method to make a profit and get these cars off the road at the owners expense. Every call that gets the government involved brings us closer to this scenario. They get more funding and we lose another freedom. They would prefer us all to be driving cars they can shut down with the push of a button from the fortress we built for them.
Calling the cops to protect a buyer who didnt take a careful look at his purchase in our hobby is not the answer to preserving our future with our cars. Leaving goverment out of it is.
Best to leave it be, more laws are not going to make
our hobby any better.
There is no end to this. Governments never get smaller. Best we can hope for is to slow them down
by not drawing attention to our hobby. This is how
we lose. Divide and conquer.
I am not ready to be told what I can do with my cars or if I can even have them. These sites should be
pulling hobbyist together not discussing how to put them in prison.