Help

[Itsgotahemi]

I just bought a 71 Valiant off of e-bay and the person who I bought it form said the car would start. When I picked it up from the shipping company we had to jump the re-lay. I took it home and parked it in my garage and it won't start. I put the key in the ignition and turn it and I get power, but it doesn't crank over like it should. I just replaced the starter and charged the battery and I'm wondering what is going on. If anyone could please help, I would be very thankful.

P.S. My Email is [email protected] if you need to reach me.

Thank you for your time
~Kenny

 

[MoParMetal]

spray starting fluid into the carb. if it turns over its a fuel problem. if it doesnt its an ignition problem.

 

['64 Cuda]

Just to clarify, you said it doesn't crank over like it should & you said that you had to jump the relay. Do you mean it didn't crank fast enough or that it didn't crank at all when you turned the key? Did you jump the relay on the firewall or on the starter? Does the car have an automatic trans or a manual trans? Give us specifics & it should be easy to nail down the problem.

 

[krazykuda]

Hey guys.

The car won't turn over. The problem is in the starting system, not the ignition system. We can't get it to crank!

It sat for a month in a shipping yard and the battery was dead when it was delivered. We killed two portable "starting packs" and had to jump start it to get it running to drive it home.

after a 20 minute dirve home the car would not even crank over after shutting it off. The alternator gage was reading on the positive side about 10 amps on the ride home. The battery was taken to the parts store and recharged. We installed a new negative battery cable, new relay, and a new starter. After all of that, we put it together and it would not even turn over. Not once.

The starter tries to engage, but doesn't. You can hear it click, but won't engage even when jumping the relay. The battery is not dirty, so it must be new, I guess two or three months. The parts store tested it and said it was good. I'm thinking it is the battery.

What else would do that? The only time we could get it to turn over was at the pick up lot when we jumped it with a hand pack or car and it took 40 minutes to do that. We had to wiggle the connections hard to get it to crank.

After replacing all of that and recharging the battery, it only reads 11.6 volts on a voltmeter. I used to test batteries in a garage when I was in high school and a fully charged 12 v battery should have 13.6 - 14.5 volts when fully charged.

What else could it be?

By the way, I'm his dad.

 

[yellowdartdave]

Borrow a good battery from another car. If the car starts like it should, you know where the problem lies.
A battery that has gone dead and left that way for any length of time will not come back.

 

[daredevil]

put a socket and breaker bar on the damper bolt and make sure the block is not locked. .pull the plugs and check for water in a cylinder ,hydraulic lock try to turn it over with the plugs out.should turn easy. if not problems in the motor not the starter

 

[KLRFISH]

I'm still realatively new here so forgive me if this sounds foolish but why didn't you replace the positive battery cable? It sounds to me like the cable that supplies the starter with the current needed to turn the motor over may have internal corrosion or a bad connection?
:newb:

 

[MoParMetal]

I'm still realatively new here so forgive me if this sounds foolish but why didn't you replace the positive battery cable? It sounds to me like the cable that supplies the starter with the current needed to turn the motor over may have internal corrosion or a bad connection?
:newb:

exactly what i was going to say...welcome!

 

[KLRFISH]

Thanks, from everything I have seen in this website it is really the place I want to be when I need some help.
:salute:

 

[krazykuda]

I'm still realatively new here so forgive me if this sounds foolish but why didn't you replace the positive battery cable? It sounds to me like the cable that supplies the starter with the current needed to turn the motor over may have internal corrosion or a bad connection?
:newb:

We replaced the negative because it is a standard part you can buy off of the shelf from any parts store in USA and I had one laying around.

We didn't replace the + cable because it is not a part that you can get off of the shelf at any parts store in USA. the + cable also includes the 8 or 10 gage wires that connect the battery to the starter relay and the other wire that connects the relay to the starter in addition to the huge one that goes down to the starter.

I told him to undo the aftermarket clamp that you get to replace the connection to the battery and clean them up with a wire brush as good as he can and put it back together. He did and it didn't fix the problem.

You are right the cable does look like it has seen better days and we should get a new one and that may fix or help the problem. We will have to call Year One or Paddock to get a repro. It will probably take a week or so to get here. We just picked up the car Saturday and tried to do what we could right away with the parts we already had to see if that would work.

Thanks for the replies. We appreciate the help and will let you know what we find.

If anyone else has any ideas, please post them. Too much info is much better than not enough.

 

[redfastback]

make the cable yourself for 1/2 the price. 10 gauge at the starter next to the 2 or 0 gauge main cable up to the starter relay, and 10 gauge from the bat terminal to the starter relay stud.

 

[Aaron]

I picked up a new positive cable for my Duster last week while I was putting my starter back in. It was like only 8 bucks at my local parts store. It had the nice ends already on it, and extra cable for the relay. My old one looked OK but after closer inspection it was corroded at the starter end. Car starts WAAAAYY better than before. Its like I put a brand new battery and starter in, but it was only the cable. Kragen or Autozone or any decent parts store should have that cable for your car. It may not be the exact resto correct one, but it does the job.

 

[MoParMetal]

make the cable yourself for 1/2 the price. 10 gauge at the starter next to the 2 or 0 gauge main cable up to the starter relay, and 10 gauge from the bat terminal to the starter relay stud.

i did the same thing. unless you're going for all original #s matching?

 

['73red-duster]

Have you replaced the relay? When they go bad,they click.

 

[fishy68]

You say the battery tested good in post #4 then you say that it only showed 11.6 volts. That's not good unless that's what it tested under a load. I'd do what yellowdartdave said and borrow a known good battery from another car and see what it does with it. If the problem is the same with the borrowed battery start testing voltage at the battery through the circuit all the way to the starter while you have somebody else crank it. A bad starter relay will click sometimes but not send power through to the starter. A bad starter can also click and not work. You have to be loosing power somewhere. As a couple other guys said a corroded starter positive cable can have allot of voltage loss. Check all these things and if you have the same (or close) voltage reading from the battery to the starter but it still won't crank over the starter must be bad.

A way to test the voltage drop in a cable is to hook up a voltmeter to each end of it. Positive on one end of the cable and negative on the other. Crank the engine over and the meter will read voltage across the cable and that's how much voltage drop it has.

Oh yeah there's one other part in the circuit that can affect starting. The Neutral switch. It provides a ground to the starter relay. If it's bad that will cause a no crank situation.

 

[redfastback]

You say the battery tested good in post #4 then you say that it only showed 11.6 volts. That's not good unless that's what it tested under a load. I'd do what yellowdartdave said and borrow a known good battery from another car and see what it does with it. If the problem is the same with the borrowed battery start testing voltage at the battery through the circuit all the way to the starter while you have somebody else crank it. A bad starter relay will click sometimes but not send power through to the starter. A bad starter can also click and not work. You have to be loosing power somewhere. As a couple other guys said a corroded starter positive cable can have allot of voltage loss. Check all these things and if you have the same (or close) voltage reading from the battery to the starter but it still won't crank over the starter must be bad.

A way to test the voltage drop in a cable is to hook up a voltmeter to each end of it. Positive on one end of the cable and negative on the other. Crank the engine over and the meter will read voltage across the cable and that's how much voltage drop it has.

Oh yeah there's one other part in the circuit that can affect starting. The Neutral switch. It provides a ground to the starter relay. If it's bad that will cause a no crank situation.

good call fishy on the nss. run a new spade terminal to ground(the mounting point for the starter relay) and eliminate the nss. if it still does not turn, its gotta be cable or starter.

 

[RedFish]

I'm gonna lay my quarter on a bad replacement starter.
Sometimes a aftermarket part prolongs a problem rather than fix it.

 

[krazykuda]

Great stuff guys. You are really giving me some good ideas. You are really getting me honed in on getting it all done. Here is the latest:

We are going to get a good quality battery. He took the battery to Sears and it failed their test. They could barely get it to read, which I believe since it only had 11.6 volts static with no load. I gave him the money to get the DieHard Gold. It is the only battery that I have confidence in.

I bought a Delco for my 74 Charger two years ago and it went bad in a year. I didn't have the receipt because I had to walk from home to get it, and the receipt blew out of my hand on the way home. I was not going to drop the battery to run after the receipt on a cold winter day with a good breeze blowing (they did not put me in the computer for warranty). They get pretty heavy when you have to hike 1/2 mile with them. When it failed the test a year later, they tried not to warranty it, but I was able to convince the manager to exchange it for me. He told me that if the new one went bad I was on my own --> Deal. The replacement went bad a year later. This is the $120 825 CCA upper line battery - No more Delco for me they are 0 for 2 within a year --> JUNK.

I bought the 7 year Autolite upper line for my Lebaron last spring. It kept losing charge, so I would disconnect the negative when I was not going to drive it for more than 2-3 days. I took it in late Nov and it tested bad. This time I made sure that I was in the computer and kept the receipt. They exchanged it (I noticed the replacement had the same date code as the one that I returned). Didn't unhook it and not driven the car in 5-6 weeks, get in and Dead! Kid took it in to get recharged and tested to try in the Valiant tonight and it failed again. Autolite 0 for 2 in 6 months --> JUNK!

I used to work a 10 min oil change in high school and we sold Interstate. They would go bad waiting on the shelf to be sold ---> JUNK!

I used to test charging systems for Sears in college. At the time they had the DieHard and this new smaller supposed "powerhouse" battery called the "Incredicell" which they claimed had 650 CCA compared to the DieHard rated at 525 - 550. They told us to load test the Incredicell for the 525 like the DieHard. I did a comparison of both for my own interest and found the DieHard did better. It made more since because the DieHard was about 20 percent larger in size than the Incredicell (which is no longer offered anymore). Plus they would take old warranty exchanged DieHards and put them on hand carts to jump start customer's cars in the parking lot. They had the guy who worked the battery room put them on the trickle charger and retest them. If he found one that was still good they put a few on hand carts with cables to jump start dead cars in the parking lot. They did it alone without having an alternator/generator like jumping from one car to another - Not bad.

Plus Sears had a better policy for charging/testing their batteries. The national store at the end of my street who will remain nameless (Murray's) has you drop them off and fast charges them in an hour. Sears has you fill out a tag with your info and gives you a free loaner battery (once again a previously warrantied one that they can recharge and test ok). They check the acid/water level and add if necessary, then put it on a 2 amp trickle charger for three days and test it when you get back. I feel this has to be better for the battery than the quick charge down the street. The catch is Sears only does this for their DieHards and the place down my street will do anybodies including DieHard. Sears will test a non DieHard battery, but will not recharge it for you.

Not to mention that I have used DieHard for over 20 years and only had one that I can remember go bad within 2 1/2 - 3 years and they pro rated it. If you do not have the receipt, they go by the date code on the battery. You only lose 2 - 3 months of warranty typically if you do not have your receipt. Most of them go 4 - 6 years and I have had one or two make 7 - 8!

So I gave him the money to get a DieHard Gold after he gets out of school tomorrow. They have the best track record with me.

However, I do not recommend using their taps - but that is a whole new thread, just trust me on this one. Go with Hanson, or you will get alot of experience with Helicoils.

 

[krazykuda]

Loved the info for the pos cable. I never thought about making my own - great idea guys.

But you are wrong in two issues.

1. A repro from the "guys" is about $40. I can make it for 1/3 to 1/4 the cost at $8.

2. The "guys" is numbers matching. Have you seen their repros? They are not identical to the original. I bought one about 15 years ago and they even state that they are not "original" but try to get close. The connectors are not identical to the original, but functional in the car. The ideas you gave me are not that far off of what they give you. And a heck of alot cheaper! And I don't have to wait a week or two to get it.

In this case being wrong is not bad!

I told him to post the issue and that there are alot of people out here that can help. I even bet him that there would be at least 3 replies by the end of the day. He could not believe all of the posts and replies when I told him to check it today. You guys blew him away and buried my estimate on replies ---> awesome! Another case where being wrong is good.

Today you hear alot about "thinking outside the box". If we get too caught up in that, we will forget to look inside to see what is there.

 

[krazykuda]

fishy68 and redfastback:

Great info on NSS and voltage drop. I can see green corrosion around the strands where it was stripped to go into the replacement battery post clamp. That is why I told him to take it apart and wire brush it, but there is no way to clean all of the stuff between the strands in the middle of the cable which probably goes back down into the insulated part. The voltage drop is a great way to check how bad it really is.

73 red-duster - yes, we did replace the relay.

I thought about the NSS, but it is not affecting me here. I have a 68 340-S (which could be a twin to the one in redfastback's picture - we have to pm and see if they are identical). Mine is just a basic 340-S with auto and a console (same color and stripe). It wouldn't start with the key once, so I jumped the relay. I didn't notice the shifter slipped down a little and ended up chasing the car down idling in reverse. (Thanks to a lumpy cam with a low idle - I caught it before it hit something - and hoped nobody saw me). I learned that jumping the relay bypasses the NSS the hard way. I then made a mental "note to self" to check that the shifter is in park before getting out to jump the relay. Do not try this at home, and if you must, have someone inside the car to hit the brakes and put in park before disaster strikes.

 

[krazykuda]

RedFish,

True, you can't depend that just because a part is new, it is good. I have seen this many times in all of my years in this hobby.

This is why I insist on running top quality brands with a good reputation whenever possible. Gates & Goodyear for belts & hoses I prefer over Dayco. Standard for electrical. Bendix, Raybestos, Wagner & EIS for brakes. Moog & Perfect Circle for suspension. Mopar Performance. Etc...

My motto is that I like to do it right the first time instead of doing it over. Ask my boy, I have told him this many times. It is also cheaper to buy one quality part instead of two poor quality parts to get the same amount of service.

My classic example is when I was sent to a small town in Arkansas for a year by a company I worked for. It was very small and did not have very many parts stores - there was Autozone and two local ones there at best. I needed to replace a belt and they only carried a no name brand belt. I had no choice but to buy it. The thing was only about $1 less than a Gates which I usually run. I had to replace it within 2 - 2 1/2 years. I can run a Gates for 5 - 6. So it costs more to run poor quality parts than quality ones (it also reduces your chance of having to walk home when your car dies) Gates also developed a new compound of rubber for hoses back in the mid 90's that could last over 200,000 miles and did not cost much more than the standard compound. The other alternative was a peroxide cured hose which costs 10% more than the standard.

Another good thing I learned from a guy I went to school with was to save your old belts and hoses when you replace them and throw them in the trunk. They don't take up much space and can get you home in a pinch if the part on your car breaks.

The starter is a remanufactured Bosh unit, which is a company I know and respect very highly. They write the Automotive Handbook which is published by SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers). This book is the bible for automotive design and has pretty much all of the information to design, test, and manufacture cars, parts, and all of their components both mechanical & electrical. You will have to look long, far, and hard to find an engineer in the auto business that does not have a copy of this book.

But your right, you can't always trust a new part...

 

[krazykuda]

Latest update:

Put in the new DieHard and it is starting fine. We used to have to jump the relay to get it started, but for some reason it started working by the key yesterday (we didn't change anything).

thanks for all of your comments, suggestions, and help. This is his first car and he is learning alot. Now he knows where to get help when he gets stuck.

Thanks again, everyone.