Hemitronix vs Megasquirt $

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4speeds4me

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So, I've been reading a whack of stuff here on the various injection options available, and have been leaning towards the MS, largely due to cost. However, I started to notice that some of the stuff I would want were going to cost extra, so I e-mailed Nutter's and asked what came with their setup. His response...

Cranks reluctor, cam reluctor, crank and cam sensors, temp sensor, map sensor, mass air flow sensor, cable throttle body, ( 8 ) coils, plug wires, coil mounts, wiring harness, ECU, fuel pump, fuel filter w/regulator and O2 sensors (2)
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That's for $2495. When I asked if there was a discount for buying multiples, he said 2 or more would subtract 15%. That's $2120. Seems from what I've been reading on the MS, by the time I buy a pump, O2's, throttle body, etc, I'll have more $ into the MS. If I'm set on the build at the beginning, am I really giving much up by not using an MS in lieu of a direct plug'n'play?

Thanks in advance, guys!
 
Part of it depends on what features you're really looking for. You can do a batch fire MS setup cheaper than a sequential for instance. Also, the standard speed density style system of the MS is likely cheaper than the cost of a mass air flow system as those sensor tend to be fairly expensive, though it requires retuning the engine after mods. The mass air flow system tends to compensate for mods automatically to a degree.

Looking over what was required on the Hemitronix system, you wouldn't need to mess with the reluctor rings with a MS, could use all the standard Hemi sensors (assuming you get them with your engine to begin with), and can keep the factory coils. Here's a plug and play MS setup for the Hemi that's pretty capable http://www.efisource.com/shop/ms3-gen3-hemi-plug-play-gold-box/. You'd still need a throttle body, fuel pump, regulator, and O2 sensor(s) with this one, but it would use all the factory sensors and coils.

What specific features are you looking for? That might help to eliminate some of the options better.
 
Efi source: $1295
Throttle body: ~$350
Fuel pump: $100
Regulator filter: $40
O2 sensor: $150

=$1935

Assuming you already have sensors and coil packs. If not:
Coil packs: $100
Crank sensor: $25 or less
Cam sensor: $25 or less
Temp sensor: $10 or less
Map sensor: $25 or less
Crank reluctor: $50-$75
Cam reluctor: comes with timing set

More than likely you already have most of that?
 
Hemitronix expenses:
Main bolts: $30
Rod bolts: ?
Labor for pulling crank to swap wheel (I know you do the work, but it still costs your customer)

Also- what coil packs does Nutter use? Are they LS coils or Hemi coils? If LS coils, you'll only be using one of the two spark plugs. Gotta decide of that's ok by your customer.
 
DIY megasquirt: $1000-$1174 for a product comparable to the EFI source (I.e. Computer with wiring including coil drivers and plugs, NOT INCLUDING IAC wiring or TPS wiring):
$1000 if you already have relays and an engine harness, $1174 if you need relays and engine harness

Megasquirt 3x box assembled with $12 pull-up: $657
MS3 wiring harness (8 ft): $67
MS3x wiring harness (8 ft): $72
Bosch 211 (I bought Meyle): $140 ($70x2)
Bosch 211 connectors: $27 (outlined below)
Factory connectors for injectors, coil packs, cam sensor and crank sensor (and alternator):$150 for factory harness from junkyard
GM Intake Air Temp - open Sensor & Plug: $20
GM Coolant temp sensor and plug: $16.25
3 relays: $24 ($8x3, including wiring)


as found on the following link:
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=226125
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Your engine management decision should be based on tuning availability.
 
Uhcoog1 said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Your engine management decision should be based on tuning availability.
Click to expand...

I sure get what you're saying there, but is the Delphi based system not quite user friendly?
 
4speeds4me said:
I sure get what you're saying there, but is the Delphi based system not quite user friendly?
Click to expand...

Me saying that isn't supporting one system or another, quite the opposite, really.

If you're going to tune it yourself - any engine management works. Go with the cheapest (time & $$) proven option.

If you're going to hire someone to tune it, you want to pick the system they are willing to tune (some guys won't tune megasquirt or FAST, but would prefer factory engine management from ls1 or hemi).

If you've got a stock motor and you want to keep it simple, use a stock computer from hotwire or the efi source megasquirt option (comes with a dialed in 6.1 tune).
 
I guess that's one possible bonus of the Delphi system from a certain standpoint. If it's basically just a GM system running a Chrysler product, it might be much more accessible to many tuners who want to mess with it. From another view though it could be a little dangerous. People familiar with GM tuning might be comfortable with the software, but not used to the tuning characteristics and variable ranges of the Hemi. Timing immediately jumps to mind. I don't know what LS engines like running for max power timing, but if someone looks at a stock table and see 20 odd degrees they might think, "that's way low, my other engines run 30+ for max power" and kick up the timing and make bad stuff happen.

I think Uhcoog hit it on the spot. The end user is really probably the determining factor. If it's for you personally, pick whatever you're comfortable with. You can download TunerStudio free (for MS tuning) to get an idea of how it works. I'm not sure how the Hemitronix system is tuned, but you might be able to get a copy of the software to see how it works. If you're selling it to someone else you might present the options to them and ask what their preference is. Theoretically you'd want to sell a finished product that's tuned and ready to go so they wouldn't have to mess with it, but if they change something down the road and need to alter the tuning, it could cause problems.
 
I'm really fighting myself on this one. One of the things I really appreciate about AC (Hemitronix) is that I can basically buy a "package"...cam, springs, and Hemitronix...and because they have the Dyno, etc already there, I can get it with what ahould be an "optimum" set up for me. This SHOULD allow me to put it together and just run it...

My original basis or motivation for using the MS was expense, or lack thereof, but by the time I purchase the stuff it DOESN'T come with, the little bit I do save will be eaten up in time figuring out the tuning, or am I overthinking this?
 
4speeds4me,

One thing that Nutter may not have mentioned is the cost of the tuning software.

With Megasquirt the software is free (as in beer), you can however pay a little extra and to gain a few additional features. I believe the expanded software will set you back $60.00.

With Hemitronix, if you wish to tune the car yourself you will need to buy a software package. These packages from companies like HP Tuners are between $500.00 and $650.00.

If you take the car to get tuned, they may have a site license that decreases their cost, but they are still going to charge you a fair amount of money to tune the car. If you don't wish to ever tune the car yourself, or to look at some of the diagnostics than a one-time fee might be the way to go.

With ANY fuel injection system you will have many of the same expenses. You will need to upgrade the fuel system with an EFI fuel pump, fuel filter, and regulator. For example, fuel pumps range in price from $109.00 for an external inline pump to about a $1000.00 for a custom tank with an in-tank submerged pump. Also depending upon your HP requirements you may need to spend quite a bit more than $109.00. The same holds true for regulators. There exists adjustable regulators costing over $300.00 while many swaps utilize an LS combination regulator and fuel filter for $59.00.

Also keep in mind that if you scrounge you can find some stuff cheap. I made my own throttle body adapter and used a Power Products 85mm throttle body I bought off of ebay for $100.00.

With megasquirt the amount you spend is largely dependent upon how much DIY you do.

I built my own box and saved a lot. The price of a pre-built ECU $659.00 lt vs. $490.00 for a kit. I built a kit, took me the better part of a day, well worth the effort. The instructions are quite clear. This compares to 1295.00 for the EFI Source kit. The EFI Source kit include a harness and a fuse box to ease installation. Add a couple of hundred dollars to the above kit prices.

You can save even more if you go with MS2 instead of MS3. With MS3 you gain a lot, sequential ignition control, and sequential fuel injection. With MS you would have to use wasted spark ignition and batch firing but your price is $334.00, so you'd save another $160.00.

I bought my MS3 kit and saved some money, I enjoyed putting the box together, though I do question the durability. (You must mount your home built ECU in the passenger compartment) I will probably saved 300.00 over the cost of the EFI Source kit, was it worth it? I'll let you know when I actually finish my project. My project is currently stalled due to a lack of funds. :(

Sharpen your pencil and Do the math.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Fuel pump, filter/regulator etc is included with the Hemitronix kit. It is complete, but obviously requires some engine disassembly. This is not a huge deal with the customer's car cause the engine isn't assembled yet. Being as BOTH these cars will be driven, I guess I keep thinking that a Delphi based system should be easier to find someone to troubleshoot it if he's out of town? And with either of these systems, will they store OBD fault codes?
 
The MS system has a data logging system, but doesn't have any provision for OBD fault codes.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Uhcoog1 said:
Efi source: $1295
Throttle body: ~$350
Fuel pump: $100
Regulator filter: $40
O2 sensor: $150

=$1935

Assuming you already have sensors and coil packs. If not:
Coil packs: $100
Crank sensor: $25 or less
Cam sensor: $25 or less
Temp sensor: $10 or less
Map sensor: $25 or less
Crank reluctor: $50-$75
Cam reluctor: comes with timing set

More than likely you already have most of that?
Click to expand...

Or......

2x Edelbrock 500 carbs - $700
1x Indy Modman or Edelbrock intake - $500
Msd 6013 - $800
$2000

Less proceeds for :

EFI intake -$500
Factory PCM $800

= $800

Just funning LOL!! ;)
 
To try and provide a fair assessment - its really the lack of a good intake manifold that stops it being a completely acceptable solution.

Sure , you wont get the same economy, ease of starting or mid range torque that EFI can produce - but for an old A body with its light chassis and less reliance on a controlled engine management system to look after air con, shift points, cooling, timing and fuel demands , I dont think the losses in torque or economy are deal breakers.

FWIW I averaged 21 mpg on the hwy - and that was with a 3800 converter and 3.91 gears...a 27" tyre and doing 3100 rpm at 65mph!!

I certainly would NEVER advocate using carbs on a heavy LX platform however - the EMS provides huge bonuses in this environment.

Back to A bodies.....If you're chasing 10ths, a computer controlled EFI will ultimately deliver more benefits in an A body.....but I believe the type of vehicle determines how much gain you will see. Of the car spends most if its time at WOT..EFI may even limit the outcome.

Like I say..I was staggered how much better my car performed with the correct choice of carbs ..and theres even more to screw out of it yet.

.....and I think the Drag Pack combos prove that ultimately, the issue of carbs vs EFI is a bit of a non-event for a street/strip car.

- BUT , hood clearance is the one major deal breaker...be it a Modman with spacers, Eddie dual plane dual quad or Drag Pak ....stock hoods are not really an option even with drop base cleaners.
 
I can agree that carb tuning is definitely one of the limiting factors that had me considering EFI a little harder. I originally did a carb swap to cut costs on my build because I just wanted to drive it, but I never did get the carb dialed in. I bought several jets and springs trying to get things right and was never very happy with it. I know with more time I could have gotten there, but nickel and dime-ing tuning parts was starting to add up and my EFI system fell into my lap. I got an MS setup used with pretty much everything I needed for $700 including several parts I didn't need (like a smallblock Mopar EFI intake) that I sold off to bring my system cost down closer to $300-400. Granted I had to take a chance on used parts and do some troubleshooting and rework to make the harness I got work, but in the end it's been fun for me because I like tinkering with things.

The openess of the MS system was a big draw for me. You can pretty much make it do whatever you want it to do, but it will add up over time. The nice part is you don't have to pay for everything up front. You can add things like nitrous or boost control later, you don't have to work them in from the beginning. For instance, I worked on a project in college that used an AEM universal ECU. The ECU alone cost $1500, plus $900 or something stupid like that for a blank wiring harness, but it could pretty much do about whatever you wanted. I've found the MS system can be made to do all the same things, but it's more of a modular setup. You can buy a base ECU that'll do fuel and spark only, then add transmission control, boost control, traction control, etc. over time as you see fit. I'm not sure the Delphi system is near as expandable in the long run, but if you don't need those features to begin with then the playing field levels quite a bit.
 
Map63Vette said:
I can agree that carb tuning is definitely one of the limiting factors that had me considering EFI a little harder. I originally did a carb swap to cut costs on my build because I just wanted to drive it, but I never did get the carb dialed in. I bought several jets and springs trying to get things right and was never very happy with it. I know with more time I could have gotten there, but nickel and dime-ing tuning parts was starting to add up and my EFI system fell into my lap. I got an MS setup used with pretty much everything I needed for $700 including several parts I didn't need (like a smallblock Mopar EFI intake) that I sold off to bring my system cost down closer to $300-400. Granted I had to take a chance on used parts and do some troubleshooting and rework to make the harness I got work, but in the end it's been fun for me because I like tinkering with things.

The openess of the MS system was a big draw for me. You can pretty much make it do whatever you want it to do, but it will add up over time. The nice part is you don't have to pay for everything up front. You can add things like nitrous or boost control later, you don't have to work them in from the beginning. For instance, I worked on a project in college that used an AEM universal ECU. The ECU alone cost $1500, plus $900 or something stupid like that for a blank wiring harness, but it could pretty much do about whatever you wanted. I've found the MS system can be made to do all the same things, but it's more of a modular setup. You can buy a base ECU that'll do fuel and spark only, then add transmission control, boost control, traction control, etc. over time as you see fit. I'm not sure the Delphi system is near as expandable in the long run, but if you don't need those features to begin with then the playing field levels quite a bit.
Click to expand...

Make the jump! I'll help you with a start up tune. :)
 
Haha, I've already made the jump. Had it running on an MS2 for around 2-3 years now. My latest project I'm just finishing up was completely rewiring the factory engine bay harness and bulkhead connector. In the beginning I just stuffed all my relays and terminal strips into a small enclosure box, but never really like the idea and serviceability. I scored a scrap harness from work and a fuse box, so I just yanked out the whole factory harness and ran all new wires. The added bonus was I also got some nice large pin count bulkhead connectors with the scrap harness so I could redo my factory one. Debating using a second one for my MS wiring, but haven't convinced myself yet since I'm not sure where I can fit it.
 
Got an e-mail back from AC. The Hemitronix DOES have an OBD port.

Looks like both systems have their draws and drawbacks, but $ is pretty close...
 
Rat Patrol said:
Map63 - you were running a Modman with a single carb - yes?
Click to expand...

Correct. Had a ModMan with a Carter AFB off of my 318. I believe it was 625 cfm if I remember the numbers correctly. Cruised fine, but had the same nasty full throttle bog that I believe you were fighting. Traded a buddy for a Holley, but it was still a vacuum secondary and the linkage hit the top plate without a spacer, so I never did run it. Was getting ready to buy a new one, but found my MS2 deal first.
 
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