Hope this is not true. Moog Offset Upper control arm bushings.

[72bluNblu]

i can't count the number of posts/threads that insist you need offset upper bushings. I have never used them or saw the need. My vehicles all steer and self centre fine with stock replacements.
Are you sure you needed them?

If you run bias ply tires, you don’t need them and you can run the factory spec alignment numbers.

If you run really skinny radials and drive like a granny, you don’t need them (but would still benefit from them).

If you’re not in either of those categories, you want offset bushings if you use the stock UCA’s so you can dial in more than +1.5 to 2° of caster, because with stock bushings you’ll be lucky to get that much at all.

This is a good place to start for radial tires

Quite honestly, the SKOSH caster numbers are still pretty conservative, especially for a power steering car.

Will you die without a few extra degrees of caster? Not likely. Is the steering response of these cars much better with a few more degrees of caster? Yes sir. And being ignorant of that fact doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

 

[RLF Cuda]

I have run the Moog offset bushings since I put BFG's on my car in about '73. The alignment shop I used know that radials have no dynamic caster like bias ply tires so they need more static caster (in the suspension) to track properly. Done correctly, the alignment should allow the car to stay in its lane hands free for at least 1/4 mile. That is my criteria for a good alignment. I like about 3° positive caster for good self-centering and response. I have 16:1 manual steering so I build up some muscles in my arms with this alignment. Parking lots are an issue, but you just park far away and walk.

 

[Bodyperson]

There should still be some caster to gain by installing them with both arrows toward the ball joint. That is, if there is no other underlying Problems.

 

[67Mungo]

@Kendog 170
Let me know how it goes. This is most likely my project for next weekend. Have those same bushings in hand.

 

[abodyjoe]

The instructions are not "incorrect", they show how to use them for their intended purpose- as a "problem solver" for correcting either frame damage or other extreme deviation from factory spec.
Their use to increase caster as described above necessitates their installation in an alternative manner instead of the way specified in the instructions.

this is correct.

 

[RLF Cuda]

AFAIK, you have to install the forward bushing with the offset to the outside and the rear bushing with the offset to the inside. This will allow the ball joint to move towards the rear. This will allow more caster adjustment. If both are offset to the outside, this will impact camber, not caster. Correct me if I am wrong. But this is how I did it (all those many years ago).

 

[Bodyperson]

AFAIK, you have to install the forward bushing with the offset to the outside and the rear bushing with the offset to the inside. This will allow the ball joint to move towards the rear. This will allow more caster adjustment. If both are offset to the outside, this will impact camber, not caster. Correct me if I am wrong. But this is how I did it (all those many years ago).

It will impact camber, to the point where you have so much camber that you can decrease the camber while gaining caster.

 

[72bluNblu]

It will impact camber, to the point where you have so much camber that you can decrease the camber while gaining caster.

This is true, but you will not be able to get as much caster as with the bushings offset to each other. And since even with the bushings offset to each other you’re only gaining about +2° of caster for a total usually around +3.5° most would want the entire amount from installing the bushings for maximum caster.

And most don’t need any additional negative camber, unless you really are correcting for damaged rails or mounts.

 

[RLF Cuda]

RustyRatRod has this to say in June, 2020:

Real simple. Install the front bushing so it makes the front side of the arm longer. Install the rear bushing so it makes the rear side of the arm shorter. I get the center line of the bushing hole and ball joint on the same plane when I decide "where" to install the bushings.

Now for my disclaimer.

That's how "I" do it. Someone will be along to tell me I'm wrong and I really don't give a ****.
Moog Offset K7103 installation question -'65 Barracuda

 

[Kendog 170]

Well I'm still waiting on a rim getting repaired for my car so alignment not for a while. I may press the rear ones out and point them inward.I'm running 205/70/14 Radials up front I can't remember but I believe last time the alignment tech said I could use more Caster but should be ok. That was 3 years ago.
Thanks all for the info.

 

[Professor Fate]

i can't count the number of posts/threads that insist you need offset upper bushings. I have never used them or saw the need. My vehicles all steer and self centre fine with stock replacements.
Are you sure you needed them?

"Need"? Sure, you can get by without them, and have adequate results. But if you're replacing your upper bushings anyway, why not just get and install the offset bushings and take advantage of the opportunity to optimize your setup? It doesn't cost much, if any, more than stock replacements.
You don't "need" headers or to replace your two barrel with a four barrel, either- but we do.

 

[Kendog 170]

Off sets are in installed last week. All arrows pointing to balljoint.

But if you're replacing your upper bushings anyway, why not just get and install the offset bushings and take advantage of the opportunity to optimize your setup?

 

[Inertia]

Crap, I/we have been recommending offset bushings for years ffs.
Never thought to actually explain how to install them for improving caster .
I knew, so ASSUMED everyone else knew, chit.
Wonder how many vehicles running around with lotsa camber, - not much caster ?

 

[KosmicKuda]

I've had these on my 68 cuda for about 12 yrs with conservative 1.75* positive caster with 16:1 manual steering and only 215/60x15 tires. Drives great!

I bought another set a couple weeks ago and put them on the shelf for my 64 Val. I've noticed the part sources for our old junk is getting thinner every day.

There have been reports that Moog quality has been deteriorating. Happy to confirm the box still says Made in USA on these.

 

[Professor Fate]

Off sets are in installed last week. All arrows pointing to balljoint.

Right, got that. I was responding to ir3333.

 

[Kendog 170]

Gottcha

 

[RustyRatRod]

I've noticed the part sources for our old junk is getting thinner every day.

You said it. I've started stocking some already hard to find parts. I have a new heater core on the shelf for Vixen, even though hers is only about three years old. It's not a bad idea.

 

[abodyjoe]

There have been reports that Moog quality has been deteriorating.

yup, turning to junk. had a brand new lower ball joint bad right out of the box. no more moog for me.

 

[72bluNblu]

you, turning to junk. had a brand new lower ball joint bad right out of the box. no more moog for me.

For some reason it seems like the K7103 offset bushings are still being made in the US and Canada. All of the other Moog A-body parts are being made in China, or worse, India, and the quality of those parts has fallen off a cliff.

 

[RLF Cuda]

Unfortunately, Moog and others don't treat classic cars as a viable customer base anymore. So many cranks and rods are made in China now. I would trust Taiwan over Chinese nowadays.

 

[72bluNblu]

Unfortunately, Moog and others don't treat classic cars as a viable customer base anymore. So many cranks and rods are made in China now. I would trust Taiwan over Chinese nowadays.

It’s not even China that’s really the problem. The company contracting the factories sets the standard for quality control, they can inspect parts and follow up on issues just like anywhere. But that costs money. The problem in this case is Moog, clearly they don’t give a crap if the products they’re making meet any kind of real standards. If they did they would have a quality control system that would find the substandard parts being made and remedy the issue.

Instead, we as customers are buying parts that don’t fit and won’t last.

 

[moparlvr166]

I've had these on my 68 cuda for about 12 yrs with conservative 1.75* positive caster with 16:1 manual steering and only 215/60x15 tires. Drives great!

I bought another set a couple weeks ago and put them on the shelf for my 64 Val. I've noticed the part sources for our old junk is getting thinner every day.

There have been reports that Moog quality has been deteriorating. Happy to confirm the box still says Made in USA on these.

Thats correct the box was made in USA not the part.

 

[EdsWelding]

These offset bushing were installed on my 72 Duster in 1978 and purchased from NAPA because when we went to get a race alignment we found out the upper A arm mounts were welded on the frame 1/4 inch farther forward on the drivers side ! So from day one the car NEVER had any caster ! Once we installed the offset bushings and got the upper ball joint as far back as we could the car went down thru the 1/4 mile @ 125+ with two fingers on the steering wheel ! Also raising the car to set the toe in was helpful.

 

[KosmicKuda]

Thats correct the box was made in USA not the part.

Ok. The included instruction sheet says Printed in USA 1985.
So the box was made in USA, the instruction sheet was printed in USA but the parts were made elsewhere?

I also bought K791 LCA bushings and that box says Made in Mexico.

 

[72bluNblu]

Ok. The included instruction sheet says Printed in USA 1985.
So the box was made in USA, the instruction sheet was printed in USA but the parts were made elsewhere?

I also bought K791 LCA bushings and that box says Made in Mexico.

Yeah the Moog boxes I’ve seen all say where the parts are actually from- China, Mexico, India, Canada and the US. Seems like the K7103’s are still made in Canada and the US, there was another thread here on it. Not sure why, pretty much everything else Moog makes for these cars has been outsourced. But Moog does still have facilities in the US and Canada.