I think my transmission guy doesn't like me

-

diymirage

HP@idle > hondaHP@redline
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
34,248
Reaction score
43,553
Location
michigan
So about 5, 6 years ago I had my 727 rebuild and lately, it has been acting up

So I called the guy and told him "hey, about 6 years ago you rebuild my transmission and it is acting up, it doesn't want to stay in 3rd"

Ok, he says, what does your maintenance schedule look like?

I said, I just told you, about 6 years ago you rebuild it

banghead.gif
 
Is reverse acting up also? I believe they are both on the same band. Could be another rebuild but hope not $$$$$
 
Is reverse acting up also? I believe they are both on the same band. Could be another rebuild but hope not $$$$$
No, and I have had that go out before (that was the first rebuild, 6 years ago)

This feels like a poorly adjusted kick down

The wierd thing is, it would do fine in all three gears when cold, but after about half an hour, it would "downshift" into second and no longer upshot

Now, it pretty much won't shift out of second (up that is, it goes into first just fine)

And reverse seems as strong as ever

I park her in a down stairs garage, nose first
So every time I leave the house I got to back up a pretty decent grade
 
Manual-First and reverse share the same band and the hi-clutch is used for reverse as well.
But in reverse, there is no pressure regulation; so if the pump makes 500 psi, that circuit gets it all.
Since your reverse is working fine,that points to a "good" hi-clutch.
That only leaves the KD band, the governor, and/or the Valve-body, and possibly the pump but I doubt that.
Since second gear is not slipping, that rules out the band,
which just leaves the governor and the valve body.

I would recommend a hydraulic pressure test.
 
Manual-First and reverse share the same band and the hi-clutch is used for reverse as well.
But in reverse, there is no pressure regulation; so if the pump makes 500 psi, that circuit gets it all.
Since your reverse is working fine,that points to a "good" hi-clutch.
That only leaves the KD band, the governor, and/or the Valve-body, and possibly the pump but I doubt that.
Since second gear is not slipping, that rules out the band,
which just leaves the governor and the valve body.

I would recommend a hydraulic pressure test.
What is the spring you remove for a shift kit. Is it called the accumulator spring?
 
I'm no transmission guy but is your kickdown installed and adjusted?


Alan
 
Yes, typically when this isn't adjusted properly you get a late shift or a hard shift. The adjustment is made at the carburetor.


Alan
 
Yes, typically when this isn't adjusted properly you get a late shift or a hard shift. The adjustment is made at the carburetor.
Yes to a point but my dart has an adjustment at the trans. And because of putting an aftermarket manifold and a Holley carb I’ve had to extend the linkage to get it to shift reasonable instead of shifting up to high gear at 15 mph.

Alan
 
I'm no transmission guy but is your kickdown installed and adjusted?


Alan
Yes, and untill thing heat up it worked fine

Though I thought the same thing at first

The first time I noticed it was right after I switched out a ripped transmission mount, so I thought maybe that got out of adjustment
 
I said because of a weiland X plane manifold and a Holley carb had to extend kick down linkage so it wouldn’t shift into high gear at 15 mph shifting manually was fine but leave it in drive no. What is the spring you remove when u install a shift kit is it the accumulator spring?
 
I dont know
I'll let you guys know once I hear back from my transmission guy...but I hope it's a cheap fix
 
Many years ago, a transmission shop owner told me, "If it works fine from cold start then slips, etc.., when hot, there is enough debris in the pan to clog the screen. Reason is lot of the debris falls away when fluid flow stops".
 
Many years ago, a transmission shop owner told me, "If it works fine from cold start then slips, etc.., when hot, there is enough debris in the pan to clog the screen. Reason is lot of the debris falls away when fluid flow stops".


fingers crossed for a dirty filter then
of course, that simply begs the question...where did the debris originate from?
 
Yes that is the one, that is often/usually removed.
But I don't like that bangshift so much; so I always put something in mine.
Can’t remember exactly but the guy who built my transmission said he put hemi clutch packs in it and double wrap bands and a fairbanks shift kit. Never had a lick of trouble with it. Change oil filter every season mag drain plug never has anything on it. And it’s not like I’m nice to the trans. I mean 3500 b+m superhole shot preloaded and full throttle with hot slicks can’t be easy on it
 
Yes that is the one, that is often/usually removed.
But I don't like that bangshift so much; so I always put something in mine.
Yes the bang shift is not nice. I find with mind if you let it shift under acceleration much easier shift. Just don’t back off throttle when it’s about to shift then it goes bang.
 
Just don’t back off throttle when it’s about to shift then it goes bang.
I think that's called a lift-foot shift. If your KD mechanism is still working, then the throttle pressure goes away when you do that. And I bet that can't be good for parts lol. But if your throttle-pressure is maxed out by tying the lever back, then IDK, I guess it would be only a lil less hard,lol. That's another reason to for the street, to leave the accumulator spring in there.
I have accumulated,lol, a pretty good selection of those over the decades so I always have something to select from. On a hoist, it only takes a lil time to swap them around until you find one that you like. Dinking with the governor is, IMO, a bigger PITA.
 
I think that's called a lift-foot shift. If your KD mechanism is still working, then the throttle pressure goes away when you do that. And I bet that can't be good for parts lol. But if your throttle-pressure is maxed out by tying the lever back, then IDK, I guess it would be only a lil less hard,lol. That's another reason to for the street, to leave the accumulator spring in there.
I have accumulated,lol, a pretty good selection of those over the decades so I always have something to select from. On a hoist, it only takes a lil time to swap them around until you find one that you like. Dinking with the governor is, IMO, a bigger PITA.
No my throttle rod is still in tacked. Like I said had to extend it at trany to keep it from shifting into high gear at 15 mph but that’s just hight difference between manifolds and carbs. At first I was using F type trans fluid but that’s obsolete. So I use a good brand name of what they have now. Any suggestions.
 
In a stock trans;
There are three basic pressures;
1) LINE pressure; this is set by the builder and varies with rpm and system leakage.
2) throttle pressure, this varies with the foot-feeder
3) governor pressure, this varies with roadspeed.

As you are accelerating the the throttle-pressure combines with the line pressure; and the governor pressure comes along and tries to command the shift. Eventually, the governor pressure is supposed to succeed. But if you lift your foot, the throttle-pressure goes away and instantly, the governor pressure exceeds line-pressure, and BANG!,it does it's thing.
For the HotRodder;
These pressures all have to be balanced against eachother, to achieve what you want. In particular, for "auto mode" the governor has to be modified to work together with the throttle pressure, to have a decent range that you can shift the trans with the gas pedal.

I have no experience with racing these. But a goodly amount of set-ups for street
 
Last edited:
In a stock trans;
There are three basic pressures;
1) LINE pressure; this is set by the builder and varies with rpm and system leakage.
2) throttle pressure, this varies with the foot-feeder
3) governor pressure, this varies with roadspeed.

As you are accelerating the the throttle-pressure combines with the line pressure; and the governor pressure comes along and tries to command the shift. Eventually, the governor pressure is supposed to succeed. But if you lift your foot, the throttle-pressure goes away and instantly, the governor pressure exceeds line-pressure, and BANG!,it does it's thing.
For the HotRodder;
These pressures all have to be balanced against eachother, to achieve what you want. In particular, for "auto mode" the governor has to be modified to work together with the throttle pressure, to have a decent range that you can shift the trans with the gas pedal.

I have no experience with racing these. But a goodly amount of set-ups for street
Thanks. Going to research more not that I have problems with the way it’s working just so I understand how this thing works and maybe tune it better
 
IMO
on the street; as in a city-car;
I have had the most fun with cars that were geared correctly for what I have wanted to do, and had the governor pressure cranked up, and then I can shift the trans with the gas pedal. And with adequate governor pressure, the trans will downshift 2-1 very willingly. This leaves my hands free to concentrate on steering.
On the street, you are limited to using mostly Second gear, occasionally First.
At any particular rpm, your engine is wanting a particular gear ratio, and it doesn't care how you get it. It can be a deep rear and a hi trans gear or vice versa. For example; with a 2.66 low and 3.73s the overall ratio is 9.92. But you can just as easily get about that, with a 3.09 low and 3.23s. The engine does not care how you get that ratio at a particular rpm.
And the rpm to gear, ratio, is linear, so if you are at 2000 rpm with that 9.98 ratio, then your speed will be ~16mph.... so at 4000rpm, your speed will be ~32mph, and at 6000 it will be ~48mph.
With a 318/904, I like to be in the fat part of the torque curve, in Second gear, at about 30/35 mph. This will produce an almost flat power delivery with no peakiness. The stock cam makes peak torque VERY early, say 2800rpm. So with a 1.45 second gear, I need a 4.10 rear, for 2800=32mph at 15% slip. This in theory, would allow me to run to 64mph at 5600, but the slip will be down to say 10% so 5260rpm, which is a stretch for a stock-cammed 318. So I put some valve springs on it just to be sure it goes there.
In reality, with that 318, I run a 4.30, cuz that just really wakes her up. And I run a 2800TC. And I run the A999ratios, lol. And a 4bbl with headers and dual 3inch sewer pipes all the way. So I cannot hit 64 mph in Second, which is no big deal; I can still hit 60@5500, but as you can imagine, the smoggerteen quit pulling a long time ago,lol. But with 4.30s it winds up pretty quick, so it's hard to notice .....
The power of the smoggerteen also comes in quite early, perhaps 4200. Which with 4.30s is about 48 mph. And the shift rpm might be 4500rpm/51mph. So my powerband in Second gear, is from 32mph to ~50 mph. I want the trans to stay in Second gear. I won't be up-shifting it. And I don't want the governor to throw a surprise downshift at me either.
These are all things to think about when you plan your application.

Now; 1.54 x 4.30=6.62 ratio. That will be my ratio of choice. With a 904, you can do this in 2.45 first gear; with a rear gear of 6.62/2.45=2.70, rounds to 2.76s..... but taking off in 6.62ratio, with a low-compression 318, and a stock stall .....is a tad um sluggish; even with a 2800. And the big surprise comes when you shift into second and that .59 split hits you. Outshifting first at 4500/48 mph, the Rs will drop to 2660, and there you are, gasping and wheezing, until the engine gets back up on the cam. The A999 ratios make it even worse, dropping to 2530. Lord help you if the vacuum secondaries slam shut.
But the 2-3 split in the 904, is .69, so the rpm only drops to 4500 x.69=3100. It is for this reason that I run the 4.30s. In the A999 the 2-3 split is a reasonable split of.65, so the Rs drop to 2920; still a long way from 2530.
So the cure for that sluggishness is more cylinder pressure and/or a higher stall, or some combination of those two; and a mechanical-secondary carb. Or, if you just can't see running 4.30s or 2.76s; then run a very hi-stall, or a bigger engine. I have run a hi-compression 340 fully dressed as a 318 including the cam, and it was a blast for sure. I ran it with a 904. And altho I never checked, I suspect the rear gear was no bigger than 3.23s; probably less.

But for the guy who just likes or needs to point and shoot, I guess a full manual-shift automatic might be all right............. for the ONE WOT upshift (on the street) you might be doing in the zero-to 60 time-trial. But for me, if I gotta shift it like a manual, ALL the time; then I'm getting an actual manual trans with the extra gear(s), and an actual clutch that is able to act like a "variable stall".
But I'm more of an autocross kind of guy. I like slammin' it around, slipping, sliding, drifting, with a generous amount of full lock stuff, and 360s; including accidental ones to make it interesting.
Who's got time to manually shift it?
I just stick it in second, set the rev-limiter to 60 mph, and let her buck. And I've got the traffic tickets to prove it..... lol. NO speeding tickets in this car ever.

These are my experiences interlaced with a bit of opinion, and the opinion parts is/are clearly stated as they occur.
 
Last edited:
IMO
on the street; as in a city-car;
I have had the most fun with cars that were geared correctly for what I have wanted to do, and had the governor pressure cranked up, and then I can shift the trans with the gas pedal. And with adequate governor pressure, the trans will downshift 2-1 very willingly. This leaves my hands free to concentrate on steering.
On the street, you are limited to using mostly Second gear, occasionally First.
At any particular rpm, your engine is wanting a particular gear ratio, and it doesn't care how you get it. It can be a deep rear and a hi trans gear or vice versa. For example; with a 2.66 low and 3.73s the overall ratio is 9.92. But you can just as easily get about that, with a 3.09 low and 3.23s. The engine does not care how you get that ratio at a particular rpm.
And the rpm to gear, ratio, is linear, so if you are at 2000 rpm with that 9.98 ratio, then your speed will be ~16mph.... so at 4000rpm, your speed will be ~32mph, and at 6000 it will be ~48mph.
With a 318/904, I like to be in the fat part of the torque curve, in Second gear, at about 30/35 mph. This will produce an almost flat power delivery with no peakiness. The stock cam makes peak torque VERY early, say 2800rpm. So with a 1.45 second gear, I need a 4.10 rear, for 2800=32mph at 15% slip. This in theory, would allow me to run to 64mph at 5600, but the slip will be down to say 10% so 5260rpm, which is a stretch for a stock-cammed 318. So I put some valve springs on it just to be sure it goes there.
In reality, with that 318, I run a 4.30, cuz that just really wakes her up. And I run a 2800TC. And I run the A999ratios, lol. And a 4bbl with headers and dual 3inch sewer pipes all the way. So I cannot hit 64 mph in Second, which is no big deal; I can still hit 60@5500, but as you can imagine, the smoggerteen quit pulling a long time ago,lol. But with 4.30s it winds up pretty quick, so it's hard to notice .....
The power of the smoggerteen also comes in quite early, perhaps 4200. Which with 4.30s is about 48 mph. And the shift rpm might be 4500rpm/51mph. So my powerband in Second gear, is from 32mph to ~50 mph. I want the trans to stay in Second gear. I won't be up-shifting it. And I don't want the governor to throw a surprise downshift at me either.
These are all things to think about when you plan your application.

Now; 1.54 x 4.30=6.62 ratio. That will be my ratio of choice. With a 904, you can do this in 2.45 first gear; with a rear gear of 6.62/2.45=2.70, rounds to 2.76s..... but taking off in 6.62ratio, with a low-compression 318, and a stock stall .....is a tad um sluggish; even with a 2800. And the big surprise comes when you shift into second and that .59 split hits you. Outshifting first at 4500/48 mph, the Rs will drop to 2660, and there you are, gasping and wheezing, until the engine gets back up on the cam. The A999 ratios make it even worse, dropping to 2530. Lord help you if the vacuum secondaries slam shut.
But the 2-3 split in the 904, is .69, so the rpm only drops to 4500 x.69=3100. It is for this reason that I run the 4.30s. In the A999 the 2-3 split is a reasonable split of.65, so the Rs drop to 2920; still a long way from 2530.
So the cure for that sluggishness is more cylinder pressure and/or a higher stall, or some combination of those two; and a mechanical-secondary carb. Or, if you just can't see running 4.30s or 2.76s; then run a very hi-stall, or a bigger engine. I have run a hi-compression 340 fully dressed as a 318 including the cam, and it was a blast for sure. I ran it with a 904. And altho I never checked, I suspect the rear gear was no bigger than 3.23s; probably less.

But for the guy who just likes or needs to point and shoot, I guess a full manual-shift automatic might be all right............. for the ONE WOT upshift (on the street) you might be doing in the zero-to 60 time-trial. But for me, if I gotta shift it like a manual, ALL the time; then I'm getting an actual manual trans with the extra gear(s), and an actual clutch that is able to act like a "variable stall".
But I'm more of an autocross kind of guy. I like slammin' it around, slipping, sliding, drifting, with a generous amount of full lock stuff, and 360s; including accidental ones to make it interesting.
Who's got time to manually shift it?
I just stick it in second, set the rev-limiter to 60 mph, and let her buck. And I've got the traffic tickets to prove it..... lol. NO speeding tickets in this car ever.

These are my experiences interlaced with a bit of opinion, and the opinion parts is/are clearly stated as they occur.
Thanks for the info can you get those ratios for a 727. Or?
 
-
Back
Top