Indy heads single water crossover /single plane manifold.

[Texas Red]

Hello Mopar fans, Project 72 is giving me fits with over heating. The 410 CID engine is all new, New Griffin radiator (Twin 1.25" passes equating to a 4 core style radiator) Fresh build, New Aluminum W2 heads with matching single plane manifold with a single water passage crossover which also has the thermostat housing with 2- 3/8 inch ports for water temp probes. New Air Tex water pump....For grins I researched Air Tex technical description of their pump----Brand: Airtex 1 rating This pump is used on accessory belt driven applications Used mostly on models equipped with a fan clutch and highly recommended that fan clutch be replaced at the same time as the water pump Manufactured with heavy duty components for increased cooling capacity.

It is worth noting that the impeller has a back on it which makes it a high/volume high capacity water pump.
The suction hose is not collapsing to my knowledge.

Ok due to running a Control freak front suspension system which makes the engine ride higher up in the engine bay than a conventional cooling fan which cannot be run on the water pump unless you are willing to cut a slot in hood for the fan to have room to turn in which I am not. (I don't remember the measurement off the top of my head) I parted out a 1976 Dodge Aspen RT car and saved the flex fan off the 318 (Chrysler part number) that was in it. Tried it and immediately knew that it was not going to work due to room and being too tall.
A call to griffin Radiators got me a twin electric fan set up from them with a credit card and we continued on with the build. Both10 inch fans did not equal one single 16" fan in CFM. I was not happy with that info but decided to roll with it anyway. I do not know where most of you live but The Lone star state of Texas is well known for blazing heat and all heat requirement test are conducted here for authentic results. If you don't believe me take a trip down I 10 through El Paso Texas about now at 2 pm in the afternoon if you need more info on what I am saying! We deal with it every day!

!
My big question is anyone else running a single plane Indy intake manifold with the single water crossover successfully without overheating problems.
Please advise. Thank you and God Bless from Texas. Texas Red

 

[Professor Fate]

Couple of questions:
What are you running for ignition, and what is your timing set at? And total advance @ what rpm while we're at it... Timing has a surprising effect on operating temp.
What is the hidden 2-belt accessory being driven underneath the alternator? A/C? Supercharger?
And for what it's worth, every smallblock manifold I have ever seen is a single crossover.

 

[DNasty777]

A couple more questions, what temps are you seeing? What thermostat are you using? And finally, are you sure the thermostat is opening properly?

 

[rumblefish360]

Is this a street vehicle?
The water bypass hose was is also capped off.
Compression? Octane? Timing?

 

[74Scooter]

Without knowing the rest of the info my initial reaction would be the fans. Most of those kits come with fans so anemic it should be criminal. What you need is a good set of fans that move serious air... and I mean like 1300~1600 CFM each. I recommend Spal.. pricey but you get what you pay for.

GL!

 

[512Stroker]

Hello Mopar fans, Project 72 is giving me fits with over heating. The 410 CID engine is all new, New Griffin radiator (Twin 1.25" passes equating to a 4 core style radiator) Fresh build, New Aluminum W2 heads with matching single plane manifold with a single water passage crossover which also has the thermostat housing with 2- 3/8 inch ports for water temp probes. New Air Tex water pump....For grins I researched Air Tex technical description of their pump----Brand: Airtex 1 rating This pump is used on accessory belt driven applications Used mostly on models equipped with a fan clutch and highly recommended that fan clutch be replaced at the same time as the water pump Manufactured with heavy duty components for increased cooling capacity.

It is worth noting that the impeller has a back on it which makes it a high/volume high capacity water pump.
The suction hose is not collapsing to my knowledge.

Ok due to running a Control freak front suspension system which makes the engine ride higher up in the engine bay than a conventional cooling fan which cannot be run on the water pump unless you are willing to cut a slot in hood for the fan to have room to turn in which I am not. (I don't remember the measurement off the top of my head) I parted out a 1976 Dodge Aspen RT car and saved the flex fan off the 318 (Chrysler part number) that was in it. Tried it and immediately knew that it was not going to work due to room and being too tall.
A call to griffin Radiators got me a twin electric fan set up from them with a credit card and we continued on with the build. Both10 inch fans did not equal one single 16" fan in CFM. I was not happy with that info but decided to roll with it anyway. I do not know where most of you live but The Lone star state of Texas is well known for blazing heat and all heat requirement test are conducted here for authentic results. If you don't believe me take a trip down I 10 through El Paso Texas about now at 2 pm in the afternoon if you need more info on what I am saying! We deal with it every day!View attachment 1715942513 View attachment 1715942514 !
My big question is anyone else running a single plane Indy intake manifold with the single water crossover successfully without overheating problems.
Please advise. Thank you and God Bless from Texas. Texas Red

My God I know things are big in Texas but that is the biggest water pump pulley I have ever seen. This could be part of your getting hot issue. The water pump needs to be over driven in a high ambient high performance application along with a quality high flow T stat.
What diameter are your crank and water pump pullies?
I hate electric fans, never found one(s) that really worked.

 

['68cuda416]

My God I know things are big in Texas but that is the biggest water pump pulley I have ever seen. This could be part of your getting hot issue. The water pump needs to be over driven in a high ambient high performance application along with a quality high flow T stat.
What diameter are your crank and water pump pullies?
I hate electric fans, never found one(s) that really worked.

Not sure of your experiences with electric fans but I have always run one and never had an issue once with 2 different engines and the second one has a pile of power. I think this applies to most people's issues on cars......they hope that a 19.95 fan will work in place of the 250 dollar one they really actually needed.

 

[B3422w5]

Not sure of your experiences with electric fans but I have always run one and never had an issue once with 2 different engines and the second one has a pile of power. I think this applies to most people's issues on cars......they hope that a 19.95 fan will work in place of the 250 dollar one they really actually needed.

yep, my rule of thumb is if the fan motor isn’t drawing more than 20 amps, it won’t cool your car. Not a strong enough motor.
I like Derale stuff, but Spal is supposedly OK too

 

['68cuda416]

yep, my rule of thumb is if the fan motor isn’t drawing more than 20 amps, it won’t cool your car. Not a strong enough motor.
I like Derale stuff, but Spal is supposedly OK too

I have Spal's most powerful 16" and it's even a pusher which a lot of guys on here say can't work, lol, but I didn't have room in the front but anyway never had any issues.

 

[512Stroker]

Not sure of your experiences with electric fans but I have always run one and never had an issue once with 2 different engines and the second one has a pile of power. I think this applies to most people's issues on cars......they hope that a 19.95 fan will work in place of the 250 dollar one they really actually needed.

Well I have had 3 cars with electric fans 2 BBM and one SBC all had Spall fans and custom shrouds all had slow speed over heating issues. At highway speeds no issues. Not even the Spal Rep on the Power Tour could figure it out.
On the other side of the coin all the cars I have owned with a mechanicial fan never had issues. Im glad you have had some success, for me never again.

 

['68cuda416]

Well I have had 3 cars with electric fans 2 BBM and one SBC all had Spall fans and custom shrouds all had slow speed over heating issues. At highway speeds no issues. Not even the Spal Rep on the Power Tour could figure it out.
On the other side of the coin all the cars I have owned with a mechanicial fan never had issues. Im glad you have had some success, for me never again.

Mine wasn't luck....it's called having a proper overall system on a car with the quality of parts needed for the job.......to be honest I really can't think of many issues at all that I have encountered so i'm either the luckiest builder out there or just spend what's necessary to have a trouble free hot rod.

 

[512Stroker]

Hello Mopar fans, Project 72 is giving me fits with over heating. The 410 CID engine is all new, New Griffin radiator (Twin 1.25" passes equating to a 4 core style radiator) Fresh build, New Aluminum W2 heads with matching single plane manifold with a single water passage crossover which also has the thermostat housing with 2- 3/8 inch ports for water temp probes. New Air Tex water pump....For grins I researched Air Tex technical description of their pump----Brand: Airtex 1 rating This pump is used on accessory belt driven applications Used mostly on models equipped with a fan clutch and highly recommended that fan clutch be replaced at the same time as the water pump Manufactured with heavy duty components for increased cooling capacity.

It is worth noting that the impeller has a back on it which makes it a high/volume high capacity water pump.
The suction hose is not collapsing to my knowledge.

Ok due to running a Control freak front suspension system which makes the engine ride higher up in the engine bay than a conventional cooling fan which cannot be run on the water pump unless you are willing to cut a slot in hood for the fan to have room to turn in which I am not. (I don't remember the measurement off the top of my head) I parted out a 1976 Dodge Aspen RT car and saved the flex fan off the 318 (Chrysler part number) that was in it. Tried it and immediately knew that it was not going to work due to room and being too tall.
A call to griffin Radiators got me a twin electric fan set up from them with a credit card and we continued on with the build. Both10 inch fans did not equal one single 16" fan in CFM. I was not happy with that info but decided to roll with it anyway. I do not know where most of you live but The Lone star state of Texas is well known for blazing heat and all heat requirement test are conducted here for authentic results. If you don't believe me take a trip down I 10 through El Paso Texas about now at 2 pm in the afternoon if you need more info on what I am saying! We deal with it every day!View attachment 1715942513 View attachment 1715942514 !
My big question is anyone else running a single plane Indy intake manifold with the single water crossover successfully without overheating problems.
Please advise. Thank you and God Bless from Texas. Texas Red

When does it got hot?
Idle, slow speed driving, highway speeds ? Or all?
What engine temp's are you seeing?

 

[rumblefish360]

On the other side of the coin all the cars I have owned with a mechanicial fan never had issues. Im glad you have had some success, for me never again.

Agreed. The MP Viscous fan set up has never failed me.

 

[512Stroker]

Mine wasn't luck....it's called having a proper overall system on a car with the quality of parts needed for the job.......to be honest I really can't think of many issues at all that I have encountered so i'm either the luckiest builder out there or just spend what's necessary to have a trouble free hot rod.

Much like yourself I take great pride with my cars, never did settle for cheap or "ok" components especially engine pieces and the cooling system design. Just never got the same performance out of electric fans.
One difference maybe that I do run A/C, you know what it is like here in MO during the summer.

 

[rumblefish360]

What diameter are your crank and water pump pullies?
I hate electric fans, never found one(s) that really worked.

Good question.
Also agreed on electric cams never working for me Dave the low powered Duster.

 

['68cuda416]

Much like yourself I take great pride with my cars, never did settle for cheap or "ok" components especially engine pieces and the cooling system design. Just never got the same performance out of electric fans.
One difference maybe that I do run A/C, you know what it is like here in MO during the summer.

I live in Missouri so I guess I know

 

['68cuda416]

That's just ridiculous when people say that electric fans don't work.....the simple truth is that power is heat and the more you have the better the cooling system you need.......if I can have zero issues with a 571hp 415" and then same zero issues with a 976hp 434" with the same 2 core 1.25" tube Wizard radiator and a 16" Spal fan and others do have issues it's not the electric fan theory fault......you have a problem with your car period!!!!

 

[512Stroker]

That's just ridiculous when people say that electric fans don't work.....the simple truth is that power is heat and the more you have the better the cooling system you need.......if I can have zero issues with a 571hp 415" and then same zero issues with a 976hp 434" with the same 2 core 1.25" tube Wizard radiator and a 16" Spal fan and others do have issues it's not the electric fan theory fault......you have a problem with your car period!!!!

Easy partner, remember your blood pressure.
All I am saying is that electric fan(s) did not work for me and no there were no other engine issues. My BBM 512 would get hot at slow speeds until I converted it to a 18 inch 7 blade Mopar fan set up, never got above 195 again even with the A/C on.
Many others members on FABO have had the same experience.

 

['68cuda416]

Easy partner, remember your blood pressure.
All I am saying is that electric fan(s) did not work for me and no there were no other engine issues. My BBM 512 would get hot at slow speeds until I converted it to a 18 inch 7 blade Mopar fan set up, never got above 195 again even with the A/C on.
Many others members on FABO have had the same experience.

I don't have issue with a good mechanical clutch fan setup but I will just agree to disagree on the other points.

 

[Texas Red]

Initial timing is set at 8 degrees with MSD taking care of the firing of the engine. A none vacuum advance style MSD distributor (Number eluding me at the moment) with the 28 degrees curve set by the correct color spring in the distributor with it breaking over (flat lining) @ 5500 RPM giving me 36 degrees total timing. I am not currently running a hood as my 50 year old perfect hood has not seen the saw yet. I hate to do it but it beats trying to answer the wife on how much is the monster going to eat today question at breakfast!!!! The engine had been running at 215 to 220 going down the interstate as I was taking car on a 80 mile run trying to get FI Tek set to engine running parameters. Tried driving in town and 220 plus was not good. I had high quality 185 degree thermostat in the car but removed it today......I advanced timing slightly more to 8 degrees as it was at 0 degrees (distributor lockdown loose) again. Engine started great at 8 degrees and Car ran flawlessly to town and back at 170 degrees.....edging up at red light and small city driving......to fuel up the beast. After eating up $75 dollars of super unleaded the car ran 170 all the way back home. (More on this later)
I will post more pictures in the members rides. The car should be a real beast as I spared no expense on my last car on .....which I had to Pinky swear to. The timing being off was a real contributor to heat problem. I did a oil & filter change just because I saw some really fine metalics in the oil 140 miles total on fresh everything.... No use in mentioning any brand of oil we just need to let that dog sleep ...no use in waking him up for any reason.

Electric fans have their place on my 2 classics as Neither my 53 Dodge truck with the 318 nor my Duster with the 410 has mechanical fans due to a room problem. I need to let that dog sleep too!!!! My theory is keep working on it until you solve the puzzle. Everyone knows when you grab a part from this company and try and mix it with some other manufacturers company everything presents its own set of problems...... especially true when you resto mod these projects.

The water pump pulleys came from ??????? Something I parted out, hung on to, I have sold and given tons of original parts away over the years to other Mopar fans in need. Years back I was parting out anything Dodge I could get my hands on. Anything LA....truck, car .......made no difference
I am fairly sure they are truck engine parts as I was hoarding 360 stuff for my own use...... knowing this day would come.

What's hiding on the dual belts.....water pump and alternator belts are both tightened up by one adjustment....... I will dig a picture up

 

[rumblefish360]

Timing seems a bit low @ 8*’s initial.
I myself run another 10-12*’s (18-20 initial)

 

[Demonic]

I had high quality 185 degree thermostat in the car but removed it today...

Engine started great at 8 degrees and Car ran flawlessly to town and back at 170 degrees.....edging up at red light and small city driving......to fuel up the beast. After eating up $75 dollars of super unleaded the car ran 170 all the way back home. (More on this later)

What makes the thermostat high quality? What is the diameter of the opening section of the thermostat? If you removed the 'stat and the hot problem went away, it is a flow issue. The real high performance thermostats are 1 7/16" at the opening port. The old factory thermostats from '67 - #2128994 or a similar new one as below:

EMP/Stewart Components 301 EMP Stewart High Performance Thermostats | Summit Racing

 

[famous bob]

Hello Mopar fans, Project 72 is giving me fits with over heating. The 410 CID engine is all new, New Griffin radiator (Twin 1.25" passes equating to a 4 core style radiator) Fresh build, New Aluminum W2 heads with matching single plane manifold with a single water passage crossover which also has the thermostat housing with 2- 3/8 inch ports for water temp probes. New Air Tex water pump....For grins I researched Air Tex technical description of their pump----Brand: Airtex 1 rating This pump is used on accessory belt driven applications Used mostly on models equipped with a fan clutch and highly recommended that fan clutch be replaced at the same time as the water pump Manufactured with heavy duty components for increased cooling capacity.

It is worth noting that the impeller has a back on it which makes it a high/volume high capacity water pump.
The suction hose is not collapsing to my knowledge.

Ok due to running a Control freak front suspension system which makes the engine ride higher up in the engine bay than a conventional cooling fan which cannot be run on the water pump unless you are willing to cut a slot in hood for the fan to have room to turn in which I am not. (I don't remember the measurement off the top of my head) I parted out a 1976 Dodge Aspen RT car and saved the flex fan off the 318 (Chrysler part number) that was in it. Tried it and immediately knew that it was not going to work due to room and being too tall.
A call to griffin Radiators got me a twin electric fan set up from them with a credit card and we continued on with the build. Both10 inch fans did not equal one single 16" fan in CFM. I was not happy with that info but decided to roll with it anyway. I do not know where most of you live but The Lone star state of Texas is well known for blazing heat and all heat requirement test are conducted here for authentic results. If you don't believe me take a trip down I 10 through El Paso Texas about now at 2 pm in the afternoon if you need more info on what I am saying! We deal with it every day!View attachment 1715942513 View attachment 1715942514 !
My big question is anyone else running a single plane Indy intake manifold with the single water crossover successfully without overheating problems.
Please advise. Thank you and God Bless from Texas. Texas Red

hey tex, I went thru the same thing, bigger engine , more h.p. in Okla. heat (more humidity) and close to the same temps.
Had to overdrive pump pulley, advance timeing on a street car helps, air flow at hi way speeds wasnt a problem , close to 100 /in town was a diff. story.
I experimented w/ elec fans all one summer , even had 3 on it at one time , went back to a mech. fan , mech. being about 8 degrees better than a clutch type . 180 walkershaw thermostate, or equivalent , closed the rad to front end cowl off on top , like the new cars.
All was/is on a 28'' wide/2 core/1 1/4'' tube rad. Have it under control now w/ a clutch type , but do have an 18'' fan to put on it if the need , running a 17 currently.

 

[justinp61]

How much cam is in it? Just so I understand, all the timing isn't in until 5500?

When I first ran my Indy headed 434 the temperature made wild swings very quickly. Installing a nipple in the intake and a bypass hose cured the problem. I run a 160° high flow thermostat, even in the hottest weather I've never seen it over 185°.

BTW, I run a MP viscous fan with a factory pulley driven by a 5" crank pulley.

 

[512Stroker]

Initial timing is set at 8 degrees with MSD taking care of the firing of the engine. A none vacuum advance style MSD distributor (Number eluding me at the moment) with the 28 degrees curve set by the correct color spring in the distributor with it breaking over (flat lining) @ 5500 RPM giving me 36 degrees total timing. I am not currently running a hood as my 50 year old perfect hood has not seen the saw yet. I hate to do it but it beats trying to answer the wife on how much is the monster going to eat today question at breakfast!!!! The engine had been running at 215 to 220 going down the interstate as I was taking car on a 80 mile run trying to get FI Tek set to engine running parameters. Tried driving in town and 220 plus was not good. I had high quality 185 degree thermostat in the car but removed it today......I advanced timing slightly more to 8 degrees as it was at 0 degrees (distributor lockdown loose) again. Engine started great at 8 degrees and Car ran flawlessly to town and back at 170 degrees.....edging up at red light and small city driving......to fuel up the beast. After eating up $75 dollars of super unleaded the car ran 170 all the way back home. (More on this later)
I will post more pictures in the members rides. The car should be a real beast as I spared no expense on my last car on .....which I had to Pinky swear to. The timing being off was a real contributor to heat problem. I did a oil & filter change just because I saw some really fine metalics in the oil 140 miles total on fresh everything.... No use in mentioning any brand of oil we just need to let that dog sleep ...no use in waking him up for any reason.

Electric fans have their place on my 2 classics as Neither my 53 Dodge truck with the 318 nor my Duster with the 410 has mechanical fans due to a room problem. I need to let that dog sleep too!!!! My theory is keep working on it until you solve the puzzle. Everyone knows when you grab a part from this company and try and mix it with some other manufacturers company everything presents its own set of problems...... especially true when you resto mod these projects.

The water pump pulleys came from ??????? Something I parted out, hung on to, I have sold and given tons of original parts away over the years to other Mopar fans in need. Years back I was parting out anything Dodge I could get my hands on. Anything LA....truck, car .......made no difference
I am fairly sure they are truck engine parts as I was hoarding 360 stuff for my own use...... knowing this day would come. View attachment 1715942758 View attachment 1715942757

What's hiding on the dual belts.....water pump and alternator belts are both tightened up by one adjustment....... I will dig a picture up

Gett'n hot at highway speeds is a coolant flow issue for sure, as you have all the air you want at higher speeds.
You need to take a serious look at your water pump drive ratio.
Let me guess you have an overdrive transmission?