Indy RHS head failure

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V8-valiant

V8-valiant

FABO Gold Member
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Ok guys and gals I've got some Sunday night carnage to share with you. I was out for a Sunday cruise buzzing down the interstate and the motor started to make a noise so I went for the key to shut it down and get to the side of the road, couldn't coast it cause I've got a wonderful reverse manual valve body in the car went to get it into neutral and realized I've got to go through 2nd and 1st before I hit neutral. Got it stopped and safely off the freeway and waited for what seemed like hours for my dad to pick me up. Got it home and pulled the valve cover to start and found signs of condensation. Pulled the plugs and found a bit of coolant. Figured I blew a head gasket kinda seemed odd only having under 1700 miles on the motor. The next thought was to get as much coolant out to attempt to store it properly until I can afford to fix it. But found what really happen when we pulled the head. What happen was the keepers failed and it sucked the valve into the cylinder, ruining the head, block and at this point at least one forged Mahle piston. At this point I don't know what to think of other than the thousands of dollars that are now gone, I don't believe my eyes it's toast. 5k down the drain. My dad thinks I need to talk to the shop I got them from but I don't know if there is anything he can do. He didn't manufacture the parts. He had them apart to do a bit of extra work I requested but that's it. I don't know if I should contact him and see what he says or if I should just call it the price of high performance engine falure.


What do you guys think?? I don't want to be one of those guys but I'm into these heads
$2499 bought them in August of 13 and have less than 1700 miles on them. Let alone the cost of everything else that has been destroyed from the keepers failing. Here's some pictures. Enjoy.....
 

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Sorry I'm gonna have to post each time I attach a picture. Here's a few more
 

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What is also kinda interesting is the same intake valve on the opposite side looks like it was on its way out. Take a look at the keepers on this one. The one is sitting a little lower than the other.
 

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Did you but the heads from Indy? What work did your machinist do to the heads? Sorry to hear that it was a total loss.
 
VitaminDemon said:
Did you but the heads from Indy? What work did your machinist do to the heads? Sorry to hear that it was a total loss.
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They didn't come from Indy. They came from a reputable shop out of state for me I called him told him what I wanted he did the work and sent them to me as assemblies good guy from dealing with him for the purchase also well known on here. I don't really want to through the name out at this point and give the guy all kinds of bad publicity if it's not needed. The heads was some porting done as well as opening the chambers to achieve the compression ratios we wanted. Thanks for the sympathy.
 
V8-valiant said:
They didn't come from Indy. They came from a reputable shop out of state for me I called him told him what I wanted he did the work and sent them to me as assemblies good guy from dealing with him for the purchase also well known on here. I don't really want to through the name out at this point and give the guy all kinds of bad publicity if it's not needed. The heads was some porting done as well as opening the chambers to achieve the compression ratios we wanted. Thanks for the sympathy.
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Kudos, names are not important!!!
Fixing the beast IS .
Could I impose for pics of the valves & 'keepers' (intake & exhaust)
Thx!!
 
The two things missing:1: What did you do, for a valve train? 2: What's your cam/spring specs( do you know?...) and did you actually check ( pushrod length/ valve tip sweep..) ? We can't answer this,without knowing the product ,& assembly knowledge. That's huge...
 
Sorry for your loss I would look for geometry issues on the other cylinders this rarely happens unless there is an issue with something but on occasion parts do fail.
 
Look at the valve stem you can see where its roughed up the keeper has been slowly slipping off,and finally did.who is to blame?? last person to work on them in my oppinion..
 
Ow; the ultimate motor head nightmare..... Look closely for any evidence on the failed or failing valve that the rocker has ever hit the retainer, even ever so slightly. And as said, valve spring model or rate or installed spring pressures and total lift would be helpful.
 
Is that a gouge or trough on the stem face in the first picture of the broken valve? Seized rocker roller?

Sorry for you're loss, I've been through this myself. My 340 is out for the 4th time since 1997 and I've driven the car maybe 20 miles since then.
 
This doesn't look like a machinist issue. Looks like a lock failed. And there's plenty of moving parts to look at. Sorry to see this.
 
My best wild assed guess is that the heat treat on the lock was ****.......it wore the raised part of the keeper where it would engage the groove on the valve off and the rest is history.
I'm sorry it happened.......this is truly the worst fear of anyone who has a goodish chunk of dough wrapped up in a motor.
I don't know that you can blame anyone from a legal stand point , but I'd like to know who's keepers they are.
I get that every manufacturer will have an Oooops and few do every step in house.
Heat treat is typically farmed out.
And no builder is going to Rockwell test every part......there are little leaps of faith throughout the process.
Even in relatively mild motors , 10 degree is not a bad plan and brand names cost more , but sometimes cost a lot less.
 
Even in relatively mild motors , 10 degree is not a bad plan and brand names cost more , but sometimes cost a lot less.
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You got that right..
 
Nothing to enjoy there ! That sucks , not sure there is anything that can be done if you did the final assembly , hard to collect , they always blame it on you not checking clearances to such .
Anyhow looks like you used good parts , hope you get it running quickly . You're one of the few using the Mahle pistons instead of the KB hyper , it sure took a beating .
 
What brand valve is that?



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The groove looks rounded and kinda shallow (maybe it's just me), on my Ferrea valves it is cut straight in giving it a sharper edge to bite onto the lock.


Anyway, sorry you experienced this, I wouldn't wish that carnage on anyone.
 
I believe tubtar is very close. appears to be a keeper failure. Could be improperly heat treated, could be an improper fit on the valve, could be an improper valve groove.

If it IS a keeper failure, there will be others out there, and likely more (as you indicated) in your own motor. This will prove to be VERY valuable (and powerful) ammunition if you end up with enough information to go after either the keeper manufacturer, or the assembler.

The block isn't lost. Sleeve it and rock it.

I'd wouldn't be surprised if there's valve to piston contact on that other cylinder with a low valve. I'm surprised you didn't mention a drop in power if it is worn.
 
mech1nxh said:
Kudos, names are not important!!!
Fixing the beast IS .
Could I impose for pics of the valves & 'keepers' (intake & exhaust)
Thx!!
Click to expand...

I am going to get the car out to my storage unit so I don't have to look at it for a few years while I wait to put another engine together. But I do plan on disassembling the heads to take a look at things. It might be a week or two but look for pictures. I will post them when I get them. Thanks
 
Abodybomber said:
The two things missing:1: What did you do, for a valve train? 2: What's your cam/spring specs( do you know?...) and did you actually check ( pushrod length/ valve tip sweep..) ? We can't answer this,without knowing the product ,& assembly knowledge. That's huge...
Click to expand...

The heads were shipped and installed as I received them. I bolted on a set of PRW 1.6 rockers as a recommendation from the shop I ordered the heads from. The pushrods were custom made from smith bros push rods. I will take a closer look at the rocker to valve tip sweep tonight and report back.
 
jos51700 said:
I believe tubtar is very close. appears to be a keeper failure. Could be improperly heat treated, could be an improper fit on the valve, could be an improper valve groove.

If it IS a keeper failure, there will be others out there, and likely more (as you indicated) in your own motor. This will prove to be VERY valuable (and powerful) ammunition if you end up with enough information to go after either the keeper manufacturer, or the assembler.

The block isn't lost. Sleeve it and rock it.

I'd wouldn't be surprised if there's valve to piston contact on that other cylinder with a low valve. I'm surprised you didn't mention a drop in power if it is worn.
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I'm not sure trying to save the block is worth doing. I have another standard bore block I will end up using when I get the finances to build a new motor. I will be parting out what I can salvage from this motor. To try and get something back out of it, I will be posting what is available and all the specs on everything in the future. I will let you guys know when I get to that. I will also be finding out who the manufacturer is on the valves, springs, retainers and keepers. Thanks for all the feedback.
 
Price of doing business in the big city, sorry for your loss.

You've also got a bunch of custom work going on, that may or may not have something to do with it.

Next time keep it as simple as you can. No fancy sh8t, it's a rumble tumble v8, not a Ferrari.
 
V8-valiant said:
The heads were shipped and installed as I received them. I bolted on a set of PRW 1.6 rockers as a recommendation from the shop I ordered the heads from. The pushrods were custom made from smith bros push rods. I will take a closer look at the rocker to valve tip sweep tonight and report back.
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I'm sorry to see the carnage and all that money and effort lost. I can guarantee that you had valvetrain issues that caused the failure. The locks are simply located by the tang. It is not for holding the assembly together. The colleting effect of the lock angle does that, which btw, is better with a seven degree than it is with a ten degree. The tangs shearing off is from severe valve float.

When you check the sweep, I bet you will find over .100" lateral movement across the tip of the valve. That is only about 300% more than what it should be. Pretty typical of just bolting on a set of roller rockers without correcting the geometry.

If you don't want to take my word for it, call PRW and talk to Shawn. Tell him you had valvetrain issues with a Mopar roller rocker, and see what he tells you.

I feel bad for you, but unfortunately I see it all the time. There is more bad Mopar valvetrain information out there than you can shake the proverbial stick at, and it results in this kind of damage. It frustrates me to no end.
 
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