Input for 340 upgrades

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Ledhead

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My head is swimming from reading so many articles. My initial intentions were the 3 G's look Good, sound Good, run like a bat outtake hell Good.
Thought of turbo's, & the like to eat some of the modern fast rides up.
Time & huge cost are fading some what. Let me introduce my baby & current plans.
20201031_155950.jpg

My 72 Dodge Dart:
Stock 69 340 bored 30 over
Blue printed & balanced yrs back.
750 DP Demon carb
727 trans w/ 3500 TC, manual
shift body and GV overdrive
8 3/4 rear w/ 355 pos or 391 pos
Stiffer axels
The old 484 purple shaft cam
MSD distributor & 6 AL
Minitubed
What I plan to ADD,
Edlebrock aluminium heads 60179
Edlebrock intake 7576
A new cam shaft ( undetermined )
Replace old headers w/ new Doug's H
All the above I do have
I know I could go bonkers with porting heads $, roller cam $, ect. ect.
My intent was a street rod that runs
10's & gets 20 miles to the gallon.
Pipe dreams are fun. Meanwhile back in reality, I might hit a drag strip for fun. Thought I wanted major HP.
But would be hard on the street.
Wondering if a boat load of tork would fit the bill in the event I'm at a light with a new Camero & to leave it in my wake. One thing I like with it's trade offs is the 3500 TC. It's fun but, even with the 355's & OD my RPM's are under the stall speed generating heat I'm sure. I do have a trans cooler but the idea of constant slippage is bothersome.
So, without porting heads, roller cam's with the mega spring pressure's hammering the valves, I humbly ask for your advice for a cam, possible TC change? A combination that would utilize the engine with the added parts
And get up & go. I appreciate the knowledge & experience so many of
You have, look forward to any input or advice.
 
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Tti step headers, skip dougs.
Tune the distributor curve u less it's been done already. Seems like you'd have to pull the motor to really make striking differences
Head work would make more without changing mannerism.
If you get eddy heads, just change the cam, maybe to a roller, mild manners but accessing the flow of the heads .500-.550 would be a good 25hp perhaps more.
.480 and actual .460...you're not using the heads.

Cam , step headers and re tune.
 
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Do you have the Edelbrock heads?

If not, skip them and go past go to Trick Flow heads.

Contact @AJformS I think the screen name goes. He has had good Success it has a very similar type of set up with the gear vendors overdrive.
 
My head is swimming from reading so many articles. My initial intentions were the 3 G's look Good, sound Good, run like a bat outtake hell Good.
Thought of turbo's, & the like to eat some of the modern fast rides up.
Time & huge cost are fading some what. Let me introduce my baby & current plans.
View attachment 1715622633
My 72 Dodge Dart:
Stock 69 340 bored 30 over
Blue printed & balanced yrs back.
750 DP Demon carb
727 trans w/ 3500 TC, manual
shift body and GV overdrive
8 3/4 rear w/ 355 pos or 391 pos
Stiffer axels
The old 484 purple shaft cam
MSD distributor & 6 AL
Minitubed
What I plan to ADD,
Edlebrock aluminium heads 60179
Edlebrock intake 7576
A new cam shaft ( undetermined )
Replace old headers w/ new Doug's H
All the above I do have
I know I could go bonkers with porting heads $, roller cam $, ect. ect.
My intent was a street rod that runs
10's & gets 20 miles to the gallon.
Pipe dreams are fun. Meanwhile back in reality, I might hit a drag strip for fun. Thought I wanted major HP.
But would be hard on the street.
Wondering if a boat load of tork would fit the bill in the event I'm at a light with a new Camero & to leave it in my wake. One thing I like with it's trade offs is the 3500 TC. It's fun but, even with the 355's & OD my RPM's are under the stall speed generating heat I'm sure. I do have a trans cooler but the idea of constant slippage is bothersome.
So, without porting heads, roller cam's with the mega spring pressure's hammering the valves, I humbly ask for your advice for a cam, possible TC change? A combination that would utilize the engine with the added parts
And get up & go. I appreciate the knowledge & experience so many of
You have, look forward to any input or advice.
I would not change what you have, but if you have to get yourself a HellCat crate engine couple that to a manual 5 speed and go have fun.
 
i had a 340 close to that 400 hp 425 tq and it got 22+ mpg with the GV overdrive didn't hit 10 sec though low 12's could do better with someone else at the wheel and a good set of slicks
 
IMHO
for your dreams, you need either a bigger engine, or to take 400 pounds out of the car, or to supercharge it.
It is really hard to marry your requirements with just 340 cubes and 3300 pounds ready to race. I think it could be done with turbo(s).
However, it is possible to make a sweet streeter with what you have, and let the ET be what it will be. A mid twelve second car, is a very fun streeter.

What I would do:
Before I would use open chamber Eddies, I would pull the pop-ups and mill them to zero-deck plus .007, to use their closed-chamber heads, and the FelPro .039 gaskets.
I would ditch that cam for a fast-rate solid-FT cam.
I would wire that GVod to split gears, and I would, install whatever gears got me 88 to 90mph at shift rpm with whatever cam I chose, in SECOND overdrive.
And that 3500TC would be history.

Here is how, for a gangbusters streeter, I see this:
The .007 pop-up will give you a Quench of about .032. The new Scr will come in at around 10.4 with 5cc allowed for eyebrows.
The above combo at your elevation of 20ft? will like an ICA of 60 to 62 degrees, making pressure of at least 175/180 psi, and have so much bottom-end torque, that you will no longer need that 3500TC; say Goodbye to it.
As to the gears. Your 727 has ratios of 2.45-1.45-1.00.. Splitting will get you 1.91-1.13-1.00. Combining them you get
2.45-1.91-1.45-1.13-1.00-.78od At WOT, here is how you will use it;
2.45-1.91-1.45-1.13-.78od, skipping 1.00.. your splits are
.78-.76-.78-.69
You will gear it to hit about 88/90mph at shift rpm, in second over. If you have 28" tires, this will take 4.30s for 88=5670@10% slip. I chose 88 because At 3300 pounds this only takes 350 hp. Meaning street-friendly cam.
So your starter gear will be 2.45 x4.30=10.54, compared to 9.58 currently, which is plus 10%. Allowing you to drop 10% torque in the TC, to break even.
But your splits are now averaging 78% compared to 59% on the 1-2 before. And you are now gonna use 4 ratios to 88, instead of just two; so your average HP for the run will go up, so you can run less specific HP, for the same ET.
Furthermore, you can now run a 4-speed tight LSA cam, instead of a 112/114 auto cam.
So things are fast turning your 12 second car into a tame streeter.

I'm figuring this out on the fly here, so bear with me.
I see this working so well, that I'm gonna upcam one size to an Ica of 64*. This will give up some bottom-end, but your new starter gear of 10.54 can afford it. So now we are looking for 90 mph in the Eighth, which is ~465hp@3300 pounds; and the new rpm still with 4.30s, is....5800, I like it.
Going thru the traps at 5800 means you can have a powerpeak down around 5500. And that usually points to a 240* cam.
But I'm gonna guess;
that these 4 gear ratios over 2, are worth 1 cam size,and
the tighter LSA I want to run, is worth 1, and
the alloy heads are gonna add a couple of hundred to the top.
so; all-in-all,
I'll guess that you can down-cam at the very least, one size, so I'll guess a 232 cam @.050. Just FYI; I have a 367/A833/3.55s, and use a 230*FTH cam to hit 93mph at 3467 pounds. So I'm fairly confident this is working out as expected.
To make it streetable, to use a decent TC, I would choose a tight lash solid lifter cam, to net 232ish @.050 after lashing. And I would try a 106LSA.
So I'm shopping for a 270/276/110 after lashing.

Speaking of streetable;
with 4.30s x.78 your hiway gear is 3.35 and with 28s, 65=2600@zeo slip; could be 100 more depending on terrain. So there yago; I choose a 2600TC. That 232SFT cam will have a boatload of extraction degrees, with a minimal amount of overlap, so is a great choice to cruise with. I ran an HFT cam of 270/276/110 with .050s of 223/230; GREAT street cam.
The above is what I would do.
Is this the best recipe?
IDK, I'm not you.
I biased it to get some decent fuel mileage, and sacrificed quarter mile ET, cuz, IMO, for me, 10s is not realistic with a street 340.

Make no mistake; this is not a recipe to get into the 10s.
But it might do 90mph, in the Eighth, which in street trim is a sub 8 second ride, even spinning most of the way. You will need a rev-limiter. But I'm only targeting 350/360 hp, which is a cheap/easy target for a 340. You probably have that now with the 284/484 cam and iron heads.

Now, in street mode, you put the GVod back into automatic mode, and drive it as a 3+1. There is ZERO benefits to splitting gears in town, ZERO........ but you are now running 4.30s,lol, which is a stinking blast!

As you know, engaging overdrive, using the computer, it shifts soft and slow. And it is impossible to engage in reverse nor at slow speeds. The computer is protecting the unit.
To run the GVod, as a splitter, you have to bypass the factory computer, and put the unit on a toggle-switch ( I used a push-on/ push-off and wired up some colored LEDS, red/green, to tell me which way it was). Once the pressure is up,the unit will hesitate a few microseconds, and then POW!, it will shift like lightning;the higher the pressure, the harder and faster the shift. And if you do it with the tires spinning, they will keep right on spinning. With 4.30s, you can engage overdrive almost right away as soon as the car has moved maybe two car lengths; I'm guessing.

There are two caveats;
1) the GVod unit will not tolerate being engaged in reverse.
You have to figure out how to prevent this. Just one revolution in reverse cost me a rebuild plus shipping, plus border-crossing = a lotta lotta money. This is imperative. and
2) IIRC, the GV people told me that the unit will not out-shift properly under load. I was running a clutch, so no problem for me. You, with a 727, will need to discuss this with your salesman.
Or perhaps someone will chime in.

Having said all that;
You might try the 4.30s and gearsplitting first, for a couple of weeks, until you get the hang of gearsplitting,; with no changes to your current engine at all; to see if I'm blowing steam. Try not to pizz your pants. And before you return home, wipe that silly smile off your face, cuzz the wify is not gonna interpret it the same way you do,lol.
Oh and make sure there is no loose junk to fly around your interior or trunk, cuz if it ain't screwed down, it will get airborne.


If it was me, I would run 4.10s and hope at 3300pounds your rig will be a lil faster than mine was. And I would try for a lil more than 10.4Scr. Some FABO members say they are running Qs closer to .020 than to .030, but that will only get you a part of a CC. But you might get away with less eyebrows, or, best idea; you might consider shaving your brand new ( 63ccs if I remember right) Edelbrock heads. I have run 185psi no problem in my 367, and on 87E10 no less. Some FABO members have stated to be running 200psi still on pumpgas.

BTW: definitions:
SFT is a Solid Flat Tappet cam, and
HFT is a hydraulic.
Scr is Static compression ratio
LSA is Lobe Separation Angle
Ica is Intake closing angle
TM is torque Multiplication
 
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Gonna take a good bit to get a stock stroke 340 in the 10’s NA
I can tell you what would get it done, because i just lived this with a 360.
Minitubbed 69 Dart 3300 with driver
Stock 360, bottom end stock
Eddie heads, very, very little porting. Went 256 max@550
260/264 Howard flat tappet 565/565
Hp 950
Stock airgap
Dougs headers
4.10 gear with 28” 275 radials
8 inch convertor
727
This combination went 11.26 shifting at 6100 almost 119 mph.
If the heads were “ good” i have zero doubt it would have run 10’s.
I then swapped to a 904 and new vert, and missed the convertor enough to where it didnt pickup over the 727. Never took it out as car was consistent, left it alone

personally, i wouldn't waste the money on the TTI step headers. They arent THAT much better( if any better) especially on a stock stroke deal.
I plan to run those same Dougs headers on my 418 i will be running next spring. Same cam, same heads, but they will be “ good”
Same carb, will use a single plane intake. I am betting at least 10.70’s in good air, maybe better.
Your thoughts regards the vert and Rpm..... dont worry about it. Buy a good tranny cooler and forget about it.
You will never get a stock stroke smallblock to run without an 8 inch convertor. That and a camshaft and having those heads ported would go a LONG way towards reaching your goals.
Guys do the hotrod tour with big verts without issues. That is an old wives tale these days. Convertors have come a long ways
 
A better question would be how much would you like to spend?

Btw This thread is full of split hairs and 2400 dollar at a time upgrades.

Hell..I've already read 2 posts that sound like complete bullshit, one here and one in another thread.

OP could change the cam and spend 500 on head work and be 40 hp up and be Just over a grand or so into it.
If he dumps 2k plus for even 50 hp at this level he is behind dollar wise.
Brains or dollars, which will decide? Lmao
 
Spend the money on a custom converter. I had a dynamic 9.5 4500 converter that acted like a stock converter under normal driving. They make some awsome converters now. I'd run 4.30s, port the eddies and get a custom roller. 340s need gear. should get low 11s.
 
Thank you all for your input.
A lot to digest. I do like the idea of the Trick Flow heads after checking them out. Just don't know how easily I could sell my Edlebrock 60179 heads.
Still in the boxes. Had a machine shop check'em out. Said they were in very good condition. I also have a 72 340, I could sell my 69 340 & put the money into the 72. Have it macined, bored & build from there.
Any who, thanks again!
 
Since your Edelbrock heads are new and still in there boxes, if you have the coin, port them.
 
To the OP, I don't really follow...is your goal a 10 second street car, or no? I wasn't sure the way it was written. If you did want 10 second power, you won't be getting it without port work on those heads and a smaller converter (or a whole lot of nitrous) + suspension upgrades, tires, gears, carb, etc, etc, etc....
 
Hey Flyfish, was a bit of sarcasm on my part. I meant to say run 10's & get 33 mpg. Actually I do want it to be quick with out dropping a fortune in it & relatively steerable. Realize ya can't have the best of both worlds.
Can you.
 
250 shot
Thank you all for your input.
A lot to digest. I do like the idea of the Trick Flow heads after checking them out. Just don't know how easily I could sell my Edlebrock 60179 heads.
Still in the boxes. Had a machine shop check'em out. Said they were in very good condition. I also have a 72 340, I could sell my 69 340 & put the money into the 72. Have it macined, bored & build from there.
Any who, thanks again!
Keep the eddy heads and get a decent camshaft and you'll be plenty happy and not have to sell any of your 340s.
I would stroke it before 2400 dollar heads. More return hp for the dollar spent. Imo
 
Over the curve, yea, agree there, but just a little bit. The torque return is ridiculous! As in awesome!


Hey Flyfish, was a bit of sarcasm on my part. I meant to say run 10's & get 33 mpg. Actually I do want it to be quick with out dropping a fortune in it & relatively steerable. Realize ya can't have the best of both worlds.
Can you.

What would be a mileage goal. Or is it just as much as I can get?
 
Hey Flyfish, was a bit of sarcasm on my part. I meant to say run 10's & get 33 mpg. Actually I do want it to be quick with out dropping a fortune in it & relatively steerable. Realize ya can't have the best of both worlds.
Can you.
best i could do was 12's and 22mpg with a 340 eddy heads and a gv overdrive
 
best i could do was 12's and 22mpg with a 340 eddy heads and a gv overdrive
The initial cost of a GV is CRAZy!!!!!
I hope to be that craZy again, someday!!!!!!!!!!
 
In my opinion it is cause prohibitive. I think you have to be nuts to buy one. To those I did, they say they enjoy it. I just can’t see spending that type of money!
 
In my opinion it is cause prohibitive. I think you have to be nuts to buy one. To those I did, they say they enjoy it. I just can’t see spending that type of money!
They are cool but you have to drive a gazillion miles to pay for one in fuel savings. The practical side of me says no.
 
They are cool but you have to drive a gazillion miles to pay for one in fuel savings. The practical side of me says no.


Exactly. For the GVOD to pay for itself you’d need to put something like a 150k on it or something like that.

Somewhere I did the math for my car and it just was astronomical how long it takes to recover the money spent.

Of course, that doesn’t factor in the issue of guys thinking 3.55’s are a low gear. For them, they pay back is in a more tolerable overall final gear ratio.

I still say the 4.56 is the best all around STREET gear.
 
In my opinion it is cause prohibitive. I think you have to be nuts to buy one. To those I did, they say they enjoy it. I just can’t see spending that type of money!
DRIVE 120 MILES A DAY @ 1.46 A LITRE OF GAS , THEN TALK
 
Exactly. For the GVOD to pay for itself you’d need to put something like a 150k on it or something like that.

Somewhere I did the math for my car and it just was astronomical how long it takes to recover the money spent.

Of course, that doesn’t factor in the issue of guys thinking 3.55’s are a low gear. For them, they pay back is in a more tolerable overall final gear ratio.

I still say the 4.56 is the best all around STREET gear.
SURE IF YOU DON'T MIND THE BUZZ at 60 mph on the highway . my buddies with those gears cry every time we have to drive more tham 10 miles to a meet
 
To the OP, I don't really follow...is your goal a 10 second street car, or no? I wasn't sure the way it was written. If you did want 10 second power, you won't be getting it without port work on those heads and a smaller converter (or a whole lot of nitrous) + suspension upgrades, tires, gears, carb, etc, etc, etc....

My old '71 340 cuda from back in the day with the stock 2.02 iron heads, holley strip Dom intake, 850DP, MP .590 sft cam, 1.3/4" race hdrs, 4.30's, 10x28's, TA 4200 stall on stock leafs+snubber went a best of 12.39@108 NA at 3550lbs, my goal was to run a 10, saw I was miles away with no fancy ally heads back then so I hit it with an actual 160hp gain (on 250 shot jetting) N20 cheater kit to run an 11.01@122+ best, that took an actual 528fwhp in that weight..
 
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