Inputs on a home built 318 for red light to red light fun

[Dartswinger70]

Check out these books, get one or get them all. Read, then wrench. Don't be in a hurry where you might miss details.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1613252803/?tag=fabo03-20

If this is your first build, the books will help. You have the parts, go ahead and assemble it , run it, tune it. Decide now if you want to degree the cam (you probably do). Don't get into hogging out ports until you get more experience, besides how will you know what difference it will make if you don't run the engine before the grinding and porting. It seems to me you are trying to build a race engine for your first build, that's fine, but get the books and spend time reading them. Read a chapter on the crank, then go out in your shop and check/polish your crank, then read one on the block, then go hone the block. One step at a time is all. I still say with that solid lifter cam that you'll want heads, use Speedmaster or Edelbrock and call it done, however you may want to run your 273 heads just so you can see if there's a difference when you put aluminum ones on later. Alot of this we do as a journey or learning experience in a quest for more power, sometimes following someone else's recipe doesn't yield the same results.

 

[273]

Ok so say I start clean slate here and I have just a 318 block here and the year is 1967 and I needed to build a super stocker for drag racing goal is to run 12s in the 1/4 which someone stated before would be the same as my goal of 7.99 in the 1/8 now how would I meet thay goal using only what was available and seeing how it's a 318 and they were only poly motors back they we will pretend it's a 273 block

Your original combo ain’t to far of the mark just your earlier obsession for 7500-8000 rpm seems like you need a better intake and maybe cam, what was is the spec’s of the cam ? What’s the target cr ? Just get those 3 things right and you should be there.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Yeah. Millions of engines came right from the factory with them. I have a big block Chevy less than 100 feet away with closed chamber heads and domed pistons.

I haven't played around with a Chevy in years, I figure Mopar well the 340 anyway, had the open chamber, and they used the piston dome to change CR. Actually pretty convenient I think. Mopar engineers were some of the best IMO. Right now I have an E6 headed Ford Mustang GT engine that I want to put E7s on but I hear tell with no valve reliefs in the 86 Piston that that is a no, no. However some say it can be done. Thing is i have the parts LOL! but the Fox body runs pretty dern good I hate to mess with it too much, but I may just start taking it down the engine needs a reseal of gaskets anyway. Throw on th eE& heads with the 87 and up intalke and voila upgrade done for an extra 30 HP so they say...

 

[RustyRatRod]

I haven't played around with a Chevy in years, I figure Mopar well the 340 anyway, had the open chamber, and they used the piston dome to change CR. Actually pretty convenient I think. Mopar engineers were some of the best IMO. Right now I have an E6 headed Ford Mustang GT engine that I want to put E7s on but I hear tell with no valve reliefs in the 86 Piston that that is a no, no. However some say it can be done. Thing is i have the parts LOL! but the Fox body runs pretty dern good I hate to mess with it too much, but I may just start taking it down the engine needs a reseal of gaskets anyway. Throw on th eE& heads with the 87 and up intalke and voila upgrade done for an extra 30 HP so they say...

Convenient maybe, but not conducive to quench. Every single gen1 small block chevy head made is a quench head. All of um. Open or closed chamber. Now, they all didn't take advantage of that, but they all were. Mopar on the other hand didn't do that. I would love to have seen a 340 with zero deck flat tops and some form of a quench head. Yes, they used positive deck height on the early ones to try, but it's not the same at all.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Convenient maybe, but not conducive to quench. Every single gen1 small block chevy head made is a quench head. All of um. Open or closed chamber. Now, they all didn't take advantage of that, but they all were. Mopar on the other hand didn't do that. I would love to have seen a 340 with zero deck flat tops and some form of a quench head. Yes, they used positive deck height on the early ones to try, but it's not the same at all.

I have no issues with Chevy ,its just the cars I would want were always elusive as far as cost. For example there was a time id say in the 90s where i never saw a 64 or 65 Chevelle in my area, they were around in the 70s though go figure. My generation got stuck with the late 70s smogger camaros and Corvettes. they were in abundance. By the time I found my dart i knew it was a 340 pre smog equipment car and i bought it up . The lack of smog equipment was a big factor in my choice. i did have a Pontiac thoughm71 and it didnt have much smog equipment either, man that thing ran. it was stock too not much aftermarket equipment except a replacement cam.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I have no issues with Chevy ,its just the cars I would want were always elusive as far as cost. For example there was a time id say in the 90s where i never saw a 64 or 65 Chevelle in my area, they were around in the 70s though go figure. My generation got stuck with the late 70s smogger camaros and Corvettes. they were in abundance. By the time I found my dart i knew it was a 340 pre smog equipment car and i bought it up . The lack of smog equipment was a big factor in my choice. i did have a Pontiac thoughm71 and it didnt have much smog equipment either, man that thing ran. it was stock too not much aftermarket equipment except a replacement cam.

I'm not advocatin chevy. I like everything old and American, I like Mopar best. I just find it funny that every single American auto maker through the muscle car years did "something" in the engine department that was not conducive to making power more than the other make. With Chrysler, it was using open chambers on everything with no quench whatsoever, with Chevy they had quench heads and didn't use them, with Ford they ground their camshafts with retarded cam timing. It was like WTF were they all thinkin? Pontiac had some FINELY machined combustion chambers both open and closed, but again, didn't take advantage of quench. Even the 67 440HP engine with the 915 casting closed chamber heads didn't use them, because the pistons sat so far down in the hole. Only thing I can figure is, they were still learning.

 

[Rat Bastid]

I'm not advocatin chevy. I like everything old and American, I like Mopar best. I just find it funny that every single American auto maker through the muscle car years did "something" in the engine department that was not conducive to making power more than the other make. With Chrysler, it was using open chambers on everything with no quench whatsoever, with Chevy they had quench heads and didn't use them, with Ford they ground their camshafts with retarded cam timing. It was like WTF were they all thinkin? Pontiac had some FINELY machined combustion chambers both open and closed, but again, didn't take advantage of quench. Even the 67 440HP engine with the 915 casting closed chamber heads didn't use them, because the pistons sat so far down in the hole. Only thing I can figure is, they were still learning.

What’s interesting is (comparing same era stuff) the SMB, with its higher rod ratio and near best spark plug location still only required 35 degrees of total timing, whereas a SBC with its lower rod ratio and absolutely garbage spark plug location needed (for a 327) about 40 total, for a 350 about 42 total and a 400 needed 44 plus degrees of total timing. And those were all “quench” cylinder heads.

The upshot is even if you brought the quench down even closer than what the OEM had them you couldn’t reduce your total timing. It may require a different curve but the total was the same.

The only time I worry about quench on a SBM is if I’m worried about dome height for compression. I don’t like building low compression engines. It’s a waste of power, economy and if done correctly, they are cleaner. If I can reduce the dome height by closing the quench gap and end up with the compression ratio I want then I do it. Otherwise I get it as close as I can and send it.

I know for a fact that guys who were big advocates of tight quench are coming off that stance. They are finding power by softening the chambers and in effect reducing quench. And that’s N/A. The power adder stuff has pretty much abandoned quench all together.

There is far more to making power and reducing detonation than quench. Especially with a SBM.

 

[RustyRatRod]

What’s interesting is (comparing same era stuff) the SMB, with its higher rod ratio and near best spark plug location still only required 35 degrees of total timing, whereas a SBC with its lower rod ratio and absolutely garbage spark plug location needed (for a 327) about 40 total, for a 350 about 42 total and a 400 needed 44 plus degrees of total timing. And those were all “quench” cylinder heads.

The upshot is even if you brought the quench down even closer than what the OEM had them you couldn’t reduce your total timing. It may require a different curve but the total was the same.

The only time I worry about quench on a SBM is if I’m worried about dome height for compression. I don’t like building low compression engines. It’s a waste of power, economy and if done correctly, they are cleaner. If I can reduce the dome height by closing the quench gap and end up with the compression ratio I want then I do it. Otherwise I get it as close as I can and send it.

I know for a fact that guys who were big advocates of tight quench are coming off that stance. They are finding power by softening the chambers and in effect reducing quench. And that’s N/A. The power adder stuff has pretty much abandoned quench all together.

There is far more to making power and reducing detonation than quench. Especially with a SBM.

I agree with all that.....but you know how crazy about quench people are these days.

I will say this. In the case of the Ford 400, they kept going the WRONG WAY trying to combat detonation. Lower and lower with the compression, when had they built a zero deck closed chamber head 400, similar to the Cleveland closed chamber engine, they'd have solved the problem.

 

[Rat Bastid]

I agree with all that.....but you know how crazy about quench people are these days.

I will say this. In the case of the Ford 400, they kept going the WRONG WAY trying to combat detonation. Lower and lower with the compression, when had they built a zero deck closed chamber head 400, similar to the Cleveland closed chamber engine, they'd have solved the problem.

Exactly. They had the same issue on the 1988 and maybe a few years earlier 460’s. No compression, retarded cam timing (makes more heat and less power), retarded ignition timing (same thing…less power and makes more heat) all for emissions and such. 88 was the last year for the carb on Ford trucks (IIRC) and they were a miserable ***** to try and tune.

And today, we don’t even check for emissions that they were trying to reduce back then. Those things were a giant PITA.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Those things were a giant PITA.

Usually anything trying to fight emissions and reducing efficiency is.

 

[Branden Finkenbinder]

Your original combo ain’t to far of the mark just your earlier obsession for 7500-8000 rpm seems like you need a better intake and maybe cam, what was is the spec’s of the cam ? What’s the target cr ? Just get those 3 things right and you should be there.

Ok so I really like the idea of the racer brown 273 d/stock camshaft and as for intake if I can dig up cash I would go 2x4s or tunnel ram only im not sure of when those intakes where introduced as for cr I'd like 10.1 minimum that is my I can handle that cr

 

[273]

Ok so I really like the idea of the racer brown 273 d/stock camshaft and as for intake if I can dig up cash I would go 2x4s or tunnel ram only im not sure of when those intakes where introduced as for cr I'd like 10.1 minimum that is my I can handle that cr

You can get by with your intake for now
Sure it will kill power always can upgrade later.

 

[Dan the man]

Thats putting words in my mouth.
You assume to much on something I never said.
I never said quench is important or not important.
I never said a high stall converter doesn’t create more heat.

Because the advice or tech point you bring up is wrong.

On the flip side, your idea of a streetable car engine is a good one and has good merit. To bad your not paying attention to what the desired outcome of the OE poster wants. (And that’s why your wrong.)

Let me ask you what you would do to build a 318 capable of a solid 12.5 ET - 318 engine for the 1/4 mile?

I'm going to list a combination for a 12.5 ET, but I'll start a thread for it.

 

[Dartswinger70]

its been a while but, I think there are at least half a dozen recipes for SBM in Larry Shepard's "How to ho trod small block Mopar engines" they go from mild street to all out solid lifter strip engines. You don't need to get recipes off the internet, guys are probably pulling it out of the book anyway. Like said read a book.

i seem to recall that the Ford modified 351M and 400M series engines were dogs.

 

[RustyRatRod]

its been a while but, I think there are at least half a dozen recipes for SBM in Larry Shepard's "How to ho trod small block Mopar engines" they go from mild street to all out solid lifter strip engines. You don't need to get recipes off the internet, guys are probably pulling it out of the book anyway. Like said read a book.

i seem to recall that the Ford modified 351M and 400M series engines were dogs.

More than that if you count what's in the MP engine book.

Yes they were from the factory, but that's easily overcome with some simple mods. My 351M in my Ford truck would surprise you.

 

[Dartswinger70]

More than that if you count what's in the MP engine book.

Yes they were from the factory, but that's easily overcome with some simple mods. My 351M in my Ford truck would surprise you.

i remember a guy had one in a 70s truck, this is at a Ford dealer I worked, they tried tuning that thing up, his complaint was "its a dog" I forget did they have the VV carb on them? anyway they threw a whole tuneup at it and the guy who owned it said it "ran the same" i dont know if they bumped timing checked timing chain slack etc. but ...yeah. i do remember they were in the big station wagons also. The 70s cars were wierd, big cubes but low HP. Then in the 80s Ford got back on track with the 5.0 Fuel injection setup. The stock fox body is 200-225 HP but man they run and are dependable.

OP, just start working your project, dont be shy...the hands on experience will get you there, believe me. You could even mock everything up without gaskets if you want to see how it goes together etc.

 

[273]

i seem to recall that the Ford modified 351M and 400M series engines were dogs.

Yes like most of the mid 70's engines, but there basically a tall deck Cleveland they have the 2v heads and with a big block bellhousing they won tons of enginrmasters competitions.

 

[rumblefish360]

its been a while but, I think there are at least half a dozen recipes for SBM in Larry Shepard's "How to hot rod small block Mopar engines" they go from mild street to all out solid lifter strip engines. You don't need to get recipes off the internet, guys are probably pulling it out of the book anyway. Like said read a book.

I even admitted to that above. No sense reinventing the wheel, it rolls fine in its current shape. Same with a lot of builds. I doubt there isn’t much already covered, done, dynoed, track test & well enjoyed by many.

The only thing with the books is information becomes dated and the parts availability go away. The listed cams and etc…. Parts in the MP book are drying up and some are available via eBay or on line forums.l, but once MP stops ordering cams, you have to make an intelligent choice for its replacement. It’s not generally hard to do.

L Shepard has plenty to offer in his books on combo’s.

 

[Cledus]

Old books calling for mushroom lifter cams had to look up what they where when is started reading them years ago but still lots of good info

 

[Dartswinger70]

Old books calling for mushroom lifter cams had to look up what they where when is started reading them years ago but still lots of good info

You can use any cam ya want man...OP has a solid lifter piece.

 

[Cledus]

Yep I was just agreeing with rumble books get dated with information but still lots of good info. And a mushroom lifter is also a solid

 

[Dartswinger70]

Ok, I thought you were referring to the current "quality" of lifters LOL! I hear that cams and lifters are down on quality possibly because of the removal of zinc from oil and the overseas manufacturing etc.. My bad. i am going to find out soon I have a new hydraulic cam on the shelf going into a build. We shall see. The last time I bought a hydraulic cam was 2008,and its still going strong no issues.

 

[rumblefish360]

Can you even find a mushroom lifter?

Heck I’ll take just one for a Museum piece!

 

[Branden Finkenbinder]

I even admitted to that above. No sense reinventing the wheel, it rolls fine in its current shape. Same with a lot of builds. I doubt there isn’t much already covered, done, dynoed, track test & well enjoyed by many.

The only thing with the books is information becomes dated and the parts availability go away. The listed cams and etc…. Parts in the MP book are drying up and some are available via eBay or on line forums.l, but once MP stops ordering cams, you have to make an intelligent choice for its replacement. It’s not generally hard to do.

L Shepard has plenty to offer in his books on combo’s.

I will give that a shot seen many on Amazon so I'll get on that first

 

[Dartswinger70]

May find them used on e bay also. Ya know to share a personals story I misplaced my "how to hot rod SB Mopar" book,but still have my "how to rebuild" book i dunno I just suggested it because thats how I approached my first build. Thing is after reading it you will know so much more about these engines, and youll remember alot of it after actually assembling an engine. That and you ptut the book on the shelf and its there for the next time, although i dont know what happened to my Hot rod book. I think I pulled it to review "recipes" and never put it back. probably fell down into a couch that i had since gotten rid of

How to rebuild is a basic engine overhaul book, while the how to hot rod small block Mopar is performance/ race oriented. I recommend both.