Installing headers -- While engine pulled or after re-installed?

[jcwren]

I'm going to pull the 5.9L Magnum in my '67 Barracuda to replace a leaking freeze plug and some other work. I'd like to replace the stock manifolds with headers, probably TTI shorties unless someone tells me why I shouldn't. It is a 4-speed car, and at the moment it has slant-6 torsion bars, which I may or not replace at a later date. I've read the that 1.04 torsion bars often require a little bit of percussive reforming on the header.

Am I better off installing the headers before I drop the engine back in (assuming I can even do that), or do it afterwards? I'm not pulling the transmission for this, just the engine. If I need to, I can also replace the starter with a mini-starter. I can't read the model # of the starter, but it's one of the ones that can be re-clocked, and not a full-sized one like used on the 318 LA engines (I don't know what starter normally comes on a 5.9L Magnum, this one was already on there).

I'm doing this by my lonesome, so I'm looking for anything that makes it easier.

 

[69FBCuda]

Before you bolt the engine down and while you still have the lift attached. That way you can make adjustments up and down front and back.

 

[Scody21]

If your spending the money for TTIs might as well drop a little more and get the full length headers…

 

[jcwren]

If your spending the money for TTIs might as well drop a little more and get the full length headers…

I'm not adverse to that, but I thought the long tube ones were a nightmare to get installed.

 

[Tim Bergin]

I had long tube TTi's on a 65 B body and they were a very tight fit. I had to raise the passenger side of the motor a couple of inches to get the header in and out. For street purposes the short tubes will work fine and give you less trouble going in.

 

[Scody21]

It is harder to leave the transmission in the car to pull the motor. With a 4 speed, you have the bell housing bolted to the block then the trans bolted to the bell with 4 bolts and the few for the cross member / mount. The input shaft on the trans is about 8 inches going though the throw out, clutch and then into the pilot. And the trans only have the rear mount to support it. The motor would have to go forward enough to clear the input shaft. On a lift the trans is out in about 20 minutes, in the ground / stands it’s about 30 minutes.

As for the headers, yeah the full leingth are tight going in, and it’s a dance of installing the headers as the motor is being lowered but it’s not aweful like headers in a 67 nova… once in there is plunty of space. A magnum starts is the “mini” and is necessary. Would also get a heat shield blanket to wrap the starter.

 

[jcwren]

It is harder to leave the transmission in the car to pull the motor. With a 4 speed, you have the bell housing bolted to the block then the trans bolted to the bell with 4 bolts and the few for the cross member / mount. The input shaft on the trans is about 8 inches going though the throw out, clutch and then into the pilot. And the trans only have the rear mount to support it. The motor would have to go forward enough to clear the input shaft. On a lift the trans is out in about 20 minutes, in the ground / stands it’s about 30 minutes.

As for the headers, yeah the full leingth are tight going in, and it’s a dance of installing the headers as the motor is being lowered but it’s not aweful like headers in a 67 nova… once in there is plunty of space. A magnum starts is the “mini” and is necessary. Would also get a heat shield blanket to wrap the starter.

Thanks, good info. I'll be doing this on the ground. This has what I think is the original 6 cylinder radiator, and I'll replace it with a Cold Case or something. Will having the radiator out of the way give the clearance I'd need? Are you recommending pulling the trans first and then the engine, or pulling them as one piece?

I've read that with the transmission attached it really takes two people to get it over the core support, although jacking up the back end can help with that, and even airing down the front tires. Using a ratchet strap to support the trans while removing the engine and then supporting it with a floor jack when it's going back in is another suggestion I saw in an article here. With the transmission attached you need a leveler (which I have), but you lose a fair amount of lift height needed to clear the core support. I suppose a gantry would be ideal, but I don't have one. A four post lift in the garage would be really nice.

If I do pull the transmission, I'd also have to disconnect the 1&2 and 3&4 shift linkages, pull the drive shaft, and probably remove the cross member. If I have to, well, then I have to. But I was kinda hoping to avoid that

 

[Scody21]

Thanks, good info. I'll be doing this on the ground. This has what I think is the original 6 cylinder radiator, and I'll replace it with a Cold Case or something. Will having the radiator out of the way give the clearance I'd need? Are you recommending pulling the trans first and then the engine, or pulling them as one piece?

I've read that with the transmission attached it really takes two people to get it over the core support, although jacking up the back end can help with that, and even airing down the front tires. Using a ratchet strap to support the trans while removing the engine and then supporting it with a floor jack when it's going back in is another suggestion I saw in an article here. With the transmission attached you need a leveler (which I have), but you lose a fair amount of lift height needed to clear the core support. I suppose a gantry would be ideal, but I don't have one. A four post lift in the garage would be really nice.

If I do pull the transmission, I'd also have to disconnect the 1&2 and 3&4 shift linkages, pull the drive shaft, and probably remove the cross member. If I have to, well, then I have to. But I was kinda hoping to avoid that

Have the radiator out is helpful. It can be done with or without the trans attached to the motor. With it attached, you really need one of the engine adjusters like this

3/4 ton Capacity Load Leveler

Amazing deals on this 3/4T Load Leveler at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

I find it easier to pull the trans first.

 

[jcwren]

Have the radiator out is helpful. It can be done with or without the trans attached to the motor. With it attached, you really need one of the engine adjusters like this

3/4 ton Capacity Load Leveler

Amazing deals on this 3/4T Load Leveler at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

I find it easier to pull the trans first.

Thanks. Yah, I have a load leveler, so I'm good there. Also air over hydraulic on the hoist Makes life a lot easier. Now if only they'd come with a release valve that had more than the "hold engine in place" and "drop engine on floor" positions...

 

[barbee6043]

I have pulled the engine/trans together always over the many cars and decade. Just me. Radiator out of my way. I have never had a leveler but I have done many by myself with a 1000 hoist hooked to the rafter in the shed. Yes harder to do by yourself with trans attached, but it an be done.

 

[duster 344]

The easiest I think is to pull the drive shaft, shifter, clutch linkage and cross member. Pull the engine and tranny together. If you’re working by yourself it would be harder to get everything lined back up for the engine and transmission to go back together. Especially working on the ground, then it would be to just pull the whole thing. The headers aren’t to bad if you get the ones that fit the application. I put them in place in the engine well, the drivers side first if you have full length you have to pull a tierod and thread it through the headers. Then the passenger side when the engine is half way in.

 

[str12-340]

yeah, the answer to your original question is YES! install them AS you are setting the engine in place. depending on the design you might have to break apart the connection for the tie rod, so figure it out and do that work while you can still crawl into the engine compartment without the engine in the way - much easier!

 

[65 Cuda 340]

I put TTI long step-tube headers on my 67 Barracuda with the engine/trans in the car, not too long after I got out of a three-month hospital stay and multiple surgeries. At the time my left arm barely worked, so I got a few scratches in the bottom tubes of the headers because I had to drag them across the floor instead of using my left arm to hold them off the floor (front tires were on ramps). But really, I thought they were easy to install. Now, I do have manual steering, but there was plenty of room to work with the motor in place, and everything fit.

The TTI's I put in my 65 Barracuda - now that was a different matter. I still did it with the motor/trans in the car, but I had to remove the torsion bars, steering column and steering gear box, and re-route brake lines and electrical wiring. Plus modify my clutch linkage and dink a couple of header tubes. And modify the driver's side motor mount (original bracket with later biscuit, which wasn't as thick). And probably a few other things I can't remember just now. But even with the small engine compartment of the 65, once the steering gear and torsion bars were out of the way, it was easy to slide the headers in and out, which I had to do a bunch of times before I was done.

But pulling the engine of a 67 Barracuda to install TTI headers? Seem like a lot of unnecessary work to me. Here, the motor is coming out anyway, but I'm not sure putting the headers on the motor before re-installing it would make the job easier. But then I've never tried to do that, so ????

 

[jcwren]

I put TTI long step-tube headers on my 67 Barracuda with the engine/trans in the car, not too long after I got out of a three-month hospital stay and multiple surgeries. At the time my left arm barely worked, so I got a few scratches in the bottom tubes of the headers because I had to drag them across the floor instead of using my left arm to hold them off the floor (front tires were on ramps). But really, I thought they were easy to install. Now, I do have manual steering, but there was plenty of room to work with the motor in place, and everything fit.

The TTI's I put in my 65 Barracuda - now that was a different matter. I still did it with the motor/trans in the car, but I had to remove the torsion bars, steering column and steering gear box, and re-route brake lines and electrical wiring. Plus modify my clutch linkage and dink a couple of header tubes. And modify the driver's side motor mount (original bracket with later biscuit, which wasn't as thick). And probably a few other things I can't remember just now. But even with the small engine compartment of the 65, once the steering gear and torsion bars were out of the way, it was easy to slide the headers in and out, which I had to do a bunch of times before I was done.

But pulling the engine of a 67 Barracuda to install TTI headers? Seem like a lot of unnecessary work to me. Here, the motor is coming out anyway, but I'm not sure putting the headers on the motor before re-installing it would make the job easier. But then I've never tried to do that, so ????

Definitely why I wanted opinions of people who've done it. I put long tube headers on my C10 with a straight 6, but there's room enough to take a nap in the engine compartment. And I've helped put headers on a couple of friends Chebbies, one of which was a PITA. But never in an A-body, and I'd like to do it with the minimum number of mistakes.

 

[Ricks70Duster340]

I installed Doug's (D453) headers into my 70 Duster without any issues. Headers mandate going to mini starter. Only issue was after I changed the torsion bars to 1.03 I had to clearance both sides. I simply raised each side and slid them in from underneath. You don't have power steering so piece of cake. I had to take the car to a muffler shop to have them fabricate dual exhaust out the back. I put on IE style chrome tips while I was at it and got the mufflers I wanted. Very good power without a lot of obnoxious noise too!

 

[JDMopar]

Like others have said, if you're going to the expense to buy headers...get long tube ones. One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is since you have some good, big ol torsion bars and will have to use the BFH to make a little room, you might be better served to buy the headers raw steel and then get them coated after you beat em up a little. TTI headers for 67 & up A bodies should have one slip tube on the drivers side, so that will make them easier to get in and out with the motor in place. That will help if you have to take them in and out multiple times do the dinging. I think the passenger side will go in and out pretty easy. Hopefully, someone will tell you if you need a 90 degree oil filter adapter in an A body with TTI headers, which is something else to consider. If you do end up buying raw steel headers, Calico Coatings near Hickory, NC is a great place to get them coated after you make them fit. Good luck with it!

 

[T-Man700]

I installed Doug's (D453) headers into my 70 Duster without any issues. Headers mandate going to mini starter. Only issue was after I changed the torsion bars to 1.03 I had to clearance both sides. I simply raised each side and slid them in from underneath. You don't have power steering so piece of cake. I had to take the car to a muffler shop to have them fabricate dual exhaust out the back. I put on IE style chrome tips while I was at it and got the mufflers I wanted. Very good power without a lot of obnoxious noise too!

I put Doug's in my Demon with the power steering box. It's a *****, manual steering is much easier.

 

[peteesbent]

I put TTI long step-tube headers on my 67 Barracuda with the engine/trans in the car, not too long after I got out of a three-month hospital stay and multiple surgeries. At the time my left arm barely worked, so I got a few scratches in the bottom tubes of the headers because I had to drag them across the floor instead of using my left arm to hold them off the floor (front tires were on ramps). But really, I thought they were easy to install. Now, I do have manual steering, but there was plenty of room to work with the motor in place, and everything fit.

The TTI's I put in my 65 Barracuda - now that was a different matter. I still did it with the motor/trans in the car, but I had to remove the torsion bars, steering column and steering gear box, and re-route brake lines and electrical wiring. Plus modify my clutch linkage and dink a couple of header tubes. And modify the driver's side motor mount (original bracket with later biscuit, which wasn't as thick). And probably a few other things I can't remember just now. But even with the small engine compartment of the 65, once the steering gear and torsion bars were out of the way, it was easy to slide the headers in and out, which I had to do a bunch of times before I was done.

But pulling the engine of a 67 Barracuda to install TTI headers? Seem like a lot of unnecessary work to me. Here, the motor is coming out anyway, but I'm not sure putting the headers on the motor before re-installing it would make the job easier. But then I've never tried to do that, so ????

What motor do you have in your 65?

I have a 66 Valiant with a 360 and want to put headers in - but have not researched enough to pull the trigger.

This is a great thread!

Thanks!

 

[65 Cuda 340]

What motor do you have in your 65?

I have a 66 Valiant with a 360 and want to put headers in - but have not researched enough to pull the trigger.

This is a great thread!

Thanks!

340

As far as I know, if you want to preserve your intact inner fenders, your choices for the small engine compartment of an early A (63-66) are TTI or Doug's full length four tube, or the shorty Spitfire headers sold by Layson's.

Or you can run fenderwell headers.

Do a search on this site; there are lots of discussions about headers.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Why are you going TTI? I've read more horror stories about people beatin the SNOT out of them to make them fit than any other brand, hands down. I put Dougs on my 65 Valiant with an LA 360 and while it was a bit of work, they were the best fitting headers I have ever installed in my life. So I can only imagine how much more room you have in a later A body. Aren't the exhaust flanges from LA to Magnum the same? If so, It'd be Dougs for me all the way.

 

[65 Cuda 340]

OK, not trying to start a pie fight here, but the TTI's I put in my 67 Barracuda are the best fitting headers I've ever installed.

My 65 was more difficult, but they still fit amazingly well, I thought, given the lack of room in the engine compartment (which was never designed to run a V8 - that was an afterthought, and is why the factory 273 manifolds look so strange) and really were easier to put in and cleared everything better than the hi-po 340 manifold I ran for years.

Not dissing Doug's, as I've never run them. Maybe they're better, I dunno.

 

[krazykuda]

 

[273cuda]

Hello there. Years ago i put Hooker Super Competition fenderwell headers on a 65 Barracuda with power steering and 4 speed. . Engine in car in parking lot. Was not so hard as i thinking it was going to be. Took the afternoon to do it. No dinging anything. Currently have TTI,s for a 65 Barracuda auto with power steering. Soon as my back, 100% VA will allow i will get to it. I have new polylock engine mounts going in at same time. So i read with interest.

 

[Inertia]

I haven't installed anything but Doug's since TTI rust issues early 2000.
The last 1/2 dozen, didn't have to ding one of them.
I've learned the engine will shift around quite a bit by loosening ALL the motor mount bolts and getting the engine where it's supposed to be, to help.
I also don't hesitate to use a ratchet strap around the trans or T-bar to shift a tube/collector over an 1/8 inch-ish, enuff to stop a rattle, and Ive been known to stuff a fence-post up the collector to shift a tube over.
The most challenging ones, Ive had to use a belt sander and draw-file the weld on the head flange, to change the angle the tubes leave the head.
I guess I've just been lucky lately, but I have installed dozens of sets of every brand since the late 60's.
Bashing a tube should be your very last resort, after those mentioned above.
Bashing a ceramic tube fractures the ceramic, then rust follows, inside and out.
Good luck

 

[65 Cuda 340]

I'm going to pull the 5.9L Magnum in my '67 Barracuda to replace a leaking freeze plug and some other work. I'd like to replace the stock manifolds with headers, probably TTI shorties unless someone tells me why I shouldn't. It is a 4-speed car, and at the moment it has slant-6 torsion bars, which I may or not replace at a later date. I've read the that 1.04 torsion bars often require a little bit of percussive reforming on the header.

Am I better off installing the headers before I drop the engine back in (assuming I can even do that), or do it afterwards? I'm not pulling the transmission for this, just the engine. If I need to, I can also replace the starter with a mini-starter. I can't read the model # of the starter, but it's one of the ones that can be re-clocked, and not a full-sized one like used on the 318 LA engines (I don't know what starter normally comes on a 5.9L Magnum, this one was already on there).

I'm doing this by my lonesome, so I'm looking for anything that makes it easier.

I hope this isn't too much of a digression, but my 67 Barracuda was bought new from Economy Chrysler Plymouth in Cornelia, Georgia (same county as Clarkesville). I'm guessing that dealer is long gone.