Intake manifold choices

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The Mallory part number is 29388. Far better than that holley regulator. Any time you see a bypass regulator that has the fuel enter the regulator backwards from a dead head regulator know that that design was used because it was cheap to get to market.

Holley was way behind on bypass regulators and had to get something out there and that was what they did.
...

I do not understand the '...enter the regulator backwards from a dead head regulator....' part.

Anything I do for a 'bypass' function is going to be a dead head system. It's a carb, not injection, so the best I can do is get the regulator as close to the 'end' of the linear (not looped) system as I can. Yes, the regulator being at the 'end' of the dual feed that a 4150 Holley uses would be best (installed past the feed to the secondary bowl)...as pictured above (post #9 from OldManMopar)...and would involve a good deal of AN fitting that I don't have and probably won't ever buy.

Everything you said about return restriction and dead head design (except as noted) I understand and is sensible. A bypass setup that barely suits a Holley Blue pump would likely work fine in my Holley Red (I'm pretty sure it is) pump situation, a Red 7psi vs: a Blue 15psi installation.

'The best' is always The Best. In my situation that seems over-engineered and unnecessary in application. I am not arguing any point you made. I am saying that a $200 regulator and a lot of $$ spend on AN plumbing would certainly work, but also is probably not needed in my street application.

AFTER I spend less and do it NOT The Best way and it doesn't work, I will be the first one to stamp 'STOOPID' on my forehead.

Stupid is as stupid does!
 
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Look at how the fuel moves through a Holley dead head regulator and then look at how it moves through their bypass regulator. They send the fuel backwards through essentially a dead head regulator.

Im talking carb regulators and not EFI. Look at both the dead head and bypass Holley and then look at the Mallory and Aeromotive and the other better regulators and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
 
Here you go.
FC9F0F54-3EB4-48A5-A709-408E0B454D3F.jpeg


And this.
7DF127A9-0500-41AE-9920-4CFEF0F66D98.jpeg


They are the same regulator except the way the fuel moves through them. This is what guys had to do before a real bypass regulator was made. Big difference between this Holley crap and a good bypass (or even dead head) regulator.
 
You do not need to use AN fittings and braided line. I had to because of what was already on my car. You just need a return regulator and barbed fittings. Then a rubber hose back to the tank. Did many cars that way.

Understood. The AN fittings and expense comment had to do with getting the loop/return as close to an actual flow through as possible, by putting the regulator 'after' the secondary bowl feed, to make the LEAST out of a dead head situation.

Mr. Rat Bastid said:
..look at both...
Still pleading ignorance with the 'look at' statement. 'Looking at' the Holley and Mallory regulators I see they are not the same, but do NOT 'see' how that makes the latter gooder than than the former. I would suppose a $200 regulator to be 'better' than a <$100 regulator and could also suppose that 'better' to mean it is faster and more consistent...but I don't know why. The less expensive is likely not a real regulator at all, but simply a restrictive device.
 
Understood. The AN fittings and expense comment had to do with getting the loop/return as close to an actual flow through as possible, by putting the regulator 'after' the secondary bowl feed, to make the LEAST out of a dead head situation.


Still pleading ignorance with the 'look at' statement. 'Looking at' the Holley and Mallory regulators I see they are not the same, but do NOT 'see' how that makes the latter gooder than than the former. I would suppose a $200 regulator to be 'better' than a <$100 regulator and could also suppose that 'better' to mean it is faster and more consistent...but I don't know why. The less expensive is likely not a real regulator at all, but simply a restrictive device.


What Holley did is copy what everyone else was doing before a real bypass regulator was brought to market.

Look at the Holley dead head regulator. The fuel comes in the bottom and goes out through the sides. Long ago, we took those very regulators and ran the fuel IN through the OUT passage and the RETURN fuel went back to the tank through the INLET side of the regulator.

It wasn’t the best way to do it (I eventually junked that regulator and used a #8 Enderle bypass valve with different sized jets to control return fuel and that was a far better option than running the fuel backwards through the dead head regulator as a bypass...keep in mind Holley said there was no way ANY car, street/strip or drag race that needed a bypass and once again, Holley was wrong. It’s easier on the pump and the fuel pressure is stable) but it’s what we had.

Now look at the “bypass” regulator from Holley I posted. It does exactly what I said we were doing with the dead head regulator because it is in fact, a dead head regulator that you run the fuel backwards through. Just a bad way to do it.

So what I’m trying to get you to understand is that Holley “bypass” regulator is really just a dolled up dead head regulator.

If you look at the Mallory, Aeromotive or any other reputable brand, you will see it’s not a dead head regulator that runs the fuel backwards through it.

The way Holley does it with those regulators you’ll see pressure creep (especially if you have a pump that is capable of feed say...500 honest HP in a car with bite) and worse you’ll see (its easy to spot if you data log but you can tell if you don’t because the car will have a bog at the hit you can’t tune out) the pressure drop to almost zero as the load is applied at the hit. When that happens, you go dead lean and the engine has a stumble.

Then, you use the big blue pump cam and 45 squirters and open the power valve up an inch below transbrake vacuum or an inch below vacuum while the engine is on the two step. And yet, the bog is still there.

That’s a sure sign the pump is too small, the regulator is not up to the task or both.

Looking at the two pictures I posted you should be able to see the way the fuel moves through the regulator, bypass or dead head. It’s the cheap way to do it. And it can cause issues.

That’s why I tell everyone to buy something other than the Holley regulators, dead head or bypass. Buy once, cry once.
 
Ok, ignore the 12-866 because it’s a by pass regulator. Here is a link to a dead head regulator. If you look at figures 1,2 and 3 you will see they show you can use that dead head regulator as a bypass regulator by changing the way it’s plumbed.

And that’s exactly what I’m trying to say. That’s all Holley did. Take a dead head regulator and change the plumbing and call it a bypass regulator.

A quality bypass regulator doesn’t just use a dead head regulator and run the fuel through it backwards

https://documents.holley.com/199r7914-3rev6.pdf
 
cany,
I read your initial post again. I doubt an AG intake will fix your problem, nor will a bypass fuel system. You implied that the f/bowls were not hot to the touch, so rules out fuel percolation. Could be pressure build up in the f/line after switching off the engine.
[1] What type of pump do you have now?
[2] Do you know how much HP the engine makes? An estimate if unknown. This needs to be considered if changing f/pumps.
 
I don't think the intake swap alone will solve it, after reading. you say the float bowls are not hot to the touch. You may be experiencing fuel percolation in the lines, instead of the carburetor itself. Pay close attention to where the fuel lines run. Are they near any heat sources? Getting the fuel lines away from heat sources will certainly help. Also, a systematic approach will be best, imo. So in other words, more than one thing. Isolating the fuel lines from heat sources. Adding a good fuel return system, with a good return style regulator put in the return line. That way, you're using the regulator as the return orifice, so you can run a return line as big as a sewer pipe. That and a good insulator gasket and or a carburetor heat shield will probably do the trick.......that is IF the problem is fuel percolation. I would verify THAT first.
 
I read your initial post again. I doubt an AG intake will fix your problem, nor will a bypass fuel system. [1] What type of pump do you have now?
[2] Do you know how much HP the engine makes? An estimate if unknown. This needs to be considered if changing f/pumps.

I am surprised that most think an air-gap isn't the 'fixer' I thought it would be. That big free-flow airspace between the runners and the valley I figured would be The Way to resolve the problem. I wanted and air-gap when I bought the parts for this engine...it wasn't available at that time, IIRC.

Reading that a fuel-bypass setup might be in the 'no' column too...well, now I'm all sad and morose about it all!

I am using a Holley Red electric, mounted at the tank.

I have not taken this setup to the track and there are no chassis dyno choices within a couple hundred miles. This engine is a bit less than what I ran a high 11 with...once.

HP isn't much. It's a 10:1 iron head motor with an HE-3844 cam:

INT .535" 237º@.050" .286"@.008" 108ºLSA 13.5ºBTC 43.5ºABC
EXH .540" 243º@.050" .290"@.008" 52.5ºBBC 10.5ºATC

It might make a hp/cid. Seems owners generally think they have a good bit more ponies under the hood than they actually do. I am not of that persuasion.

I don't think the intake swap alone will solve it, after reading. you say the float bowls are not hot to the touch. You may be experiencing fuel percolation in the lines, instead of the carburetor itself. Pay close attention to where the fuel lines run. Are they near any heat sources? Getting the fuel lines away from heat sources will certainly help. Also, a systematic approach will be best, imo.

More nix to the air-gap...although you DO say, not 'alone'. No argument from me...I just thought the idea had more merit than it probably does.

The fuel lines are well away from the exhaust and insulated. Yes, a systematic approach is the best I'm sure. As said, I have replaced iffy needles already (no test since) and have a throttle bracket due in Friday that will make the addition of my 1/2" phenolic spacer easy to get done.

A return regulator is probably next. I don't expect the problem to completely disappear, but it getting considerably better can't be off the table.

Thanks, summore, for good points made.
 
I am surprised that most think an air-gap isn't the 'fixer' I thought it would be. That big free-flow airspace between the runners and the valley I figured would be The Way to resolve the problem. I wanted and air-gap when I bought the parts for this engine...it wasn't available at that time, IIRC.

Reading that a fuel-bypass setup might be in the 'no' column too...well, now I'm all sad and morose about it all!

I am using a Holley Red electric, mounted at the tank.

I have not taken this setup to the track and there are no chassis dyno choices within a couple hundred miles. This engine is a bit less than what I ran a high 11 with...once.

HP isn't much. It's a 10:1 iron head motor with an HE-3844 cam:

INT .535" 237º@.050" .286"@.008" 108ºLSA 13.5ºBTC 43.5ºABC
EXH .540" 243º@.050" .290"@.008" 52.5ºBBC 10.5ºATC

It might make a hp/cid. Seems owners generally think they have a good bit more ponies under the hood than they actually do. I am not of that persuasion.



More nix to the air-gap...although you DO say, not 'alone'. No argument from me...I just thought the idea had more merit than it probably does.

The fuel lines are well away from the exhaust and insulated. Yes, a systematic approach is the best I'm sure. As said, I have replaced iffy needles already (no test since) and have a throttle bracket due in Friday that will make the addition of my 1/2" phenolic spacer easy to get done.

A return regulator is probably next. I don't expect the problem to completely disappear, but it getting considerably better can't be off the table.

Thanks, summore, for good points made.
I'm just hatin to see you spend what......300 plus clams and still not solve your issue. Did you block the exhaust cross over in the intake you have now? That could actually make a difference.
 
Going with the concept of skinning the right cat before spending big time and effort...

Get some termperature stickers or pens and see if you can figure out where the fuel is getting heated. Mcmaster, Omega, or Pegasus Racing are three different types of places that carry that type of stuff. Contact type thermometers, or even IR may be useful. But need to learn how they work and do some calibration experiments (ice water bath, and boiling water are common ways to check if you want real accuracy). The IR works on emissitivty so the type of surface can throw those readings if not taken into account.

If you just need it within 20* then that's overkill.
Only mentioning it because there can be a huge difference in percent of fuel evaporated between 110F and one at 130*F.

On my Barracuda the problem is the headers, even though stainless, are close to the frame rail. I've added insulating sleeve and zircotech 'foil'. The whole engine bay can get pretty hot after coming to crawl in Frisday night rush hour after running for hours on the interstate. Hot enough to soften the nylon gaskets on the fuel bowl inlets.
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Lesson learned. That's a story for another time, although I'm sure I've posted it some time in the past.
 
less typing and more wrenching will fix this. Install the carb heat insulator, plumb the return line and bypass reg and you will end this problem. I use a $40 holley regulator and it works great. Rock steady 6.5 psi set at the factory. After adding a return system all my hot start issues ended. I have always run an airgap. I'm in Florida with brutal summer temps. The upper radiator hose can cook the front bowl so insulation around the thermostat housing and hose also helps.
 
I'm just hatin to see you spend what......300 plus clams and still not solve your issue. Did you block the exhaust cross over in the intake you have now? That could actually make a difference.

Yes, spending coin on the unnecessary is useless. A 'plain' perf/rpm/air-gap is $450. Long ago I had a 'plain' manifold...and the resulting stains and ugliness was not something I will repeat. I'm not much interested in a show-n-shine engine, but much less interested in yucky ugly. So...throw in a polish and a clear powder coat and it's a lot closer to a $grand.

Yes. Exhaust crossover is blocked.

Going with the concept of skinning the right cat before spending big time and effort...

Yes. I am 'moving forward' with the basic common sense stuff...things that should have been done already: Phenolic spacer and a regulator/gauge. The bypass part will be a bit down the line. First I want to ensure the carb is reasonably isolated AND that I have <5psi at the carb.

The thermo pen idea is spot on. IR units do way too much bouncing around when shiny things are involved.

IF responses to my original question abounded with 'air-gaps are the only way to go' and anecdotal input as to a plethora of problems solved, I would be tending toward getting one.

I am not tending to that direction now.
 
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