Is a trip to the dyno worth it?

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doogievlg

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I built my motor last winter and had some disappointing runs at the track that were the result of lose of power at the top end at high rpm. I had a best run of 13.44 at 99 mph. My 60 foot was 1.95 with no spinning and going off the brake pedal. I was shifting at 6000 rpm and going out the back around 5500. If I fix the stuttering at the big end and tune the timing a bit I could get close to a 12.99 but I'm still not feeling the power. I really am about to pull the motor out and take it somewhere to get it dialed in.

Some details on my car.

73 swinger
360 .30 over
Speed pro flat top Pistons
Eddie heads with very little work
Performer rpm intake
Mp .484 can
Holley 750 with vac secondaries
Electronic distributor
Chrome ignition box
727 with 2800 rpm stall
8 1:4 with 3:55 sure trip
Hoosier qtp tires
 
The drag strip would be a LOT more fun. Isn't that what it's all about anyway?
 
The drag strip would be a LOT more fun. Isn't that what it's all about anyway?

That is exactly what it is all about and I have always been the guy saying the ET doesn't lie but after spending hours fumbling around with wrenches in the dark and dropping jets in the grass in the pits I have come to the conclusion that it would be easier to tune the motor and carburetor in a dyno room.
 
Dynos cost a lot of money. They are, in a way, like hookers. Only more legal Or so I've heard
 
What size are your tires? Maybe its just me, but unless you have a very short tire, 5500 through the traps with a 3.55 gear sounds kinda high. Maybe converter slippage? Direct clutches in the trans slipping? Possibilities. Eric L
 
And I agree with drag strip tuning. Ive done it both ways, and dyno results don't nescessarily translate to drag strip numbers.

IMHO, its the MPH you want to watch, that and 60ft. ET has to many variables IMHO. Eric L
 
What size are your tires? Maybe its just me, but unless you have a very short tire, 5500 through the traps with a 3.55 gear sounds kinda high. Maybe converter slippage? Direct clutches in the trans slipping? Possibilities. Eric L

26 inches tall. This is a possibility since I purchased the converter when I was 17 and broke.
 
Sounds like a distributor job would help. Give it all the initial it will take and still start when hot then limit the total advance based on that setup. Should kick that 60' time in the butt. What do the plugs look like after a pass?
 
To me, it sounds like you are shifting too early.
And you have a totally wrong gear,
But the 99MPH tells the real story, you are way down on power.

My 360 is very similar to yours, and with 3.55s and at 3850(me in it),and a much smaller cam, went 106 with no tuning at all. Back in 1971,my totally stock 70 Swinger340 at 3110(me in it,IIRC), also with 3.55s but with a 4spd, went 99mph.To me that makes it look like you are making a little more power than a stock 1970 Swinger 340.More cuz I'm sure the raceweight of your 73 is more than 3110.
So the question is why are you so down. It has got to be in the tune.

--Taking it out, and to the dyno is a huge investment in time and money.They are gonna do a lot of things that you can do yourself.And there will be a lot of things that they won't do, that you will need to do, later.
--I would go back to the basics; compression test, leakdown test, and timing test. If she's got more MPH in her, these tests will prove it. Or not.Then make sure the secondaries are opening, and that the carb is not fat.Fat will just kill mph.
--The no tire-spin and 1.95 60fts tell the same story; at a stall speed of 2800, there is nobody home.This can be traced to low cylinder pressure,insufficient timing and slow secondaries or fat carb. So again, it points to the tune. The Dyno may not catch this, cuz they are concentrating on WOT fuel and timing, and trying to maximize those numbers.And they do a good job of that. But when you get it back, you still have to make it driveable.

--So as to the basics; For a strong launch at 2800, you need torque. The 284 ain't that soft at 2800, so Ima gonna guess the timing is lazy down there or the cylinder pressure is low, or the secondaries are not opening. So if it doesn't respond favorably to increased timing or faster secondaries, then the next step is a compression test. Actually, I would start with that.At least then you can rule out compression. Or not. 165psi will make a good launch. 120psi will be lazy. 140 can be made to work, but probably not with a 2800TC, or 3.55s. Less than 120 you are gonna need way more gear.Ima thinkin 4.57s will get you around 107 at 6000 with 28s. I'm not suggesting you run those, just that with 120psi, you are gonna need all the help you can get.
--Concentrate on getting the mph up, and the ET will follow.Once the MPH plateaus, try shifting it at a higher rpm.Go up 200 at a time, til it slows down, then back up the bus;100 at a time until it peaks. With a 727, it will want a different shift rpm for each gear. This is because the gears are not evenly spaced.(With your combo you might be able to trap in second gear;With 28s, 105mph is about 6500rpm.) Then try a different power-timing, again looking for a max mph.When you finally get that mph thing bugged out; then start tuning the launch.

BTW, I heard you say stuttering at the big end. Not sure what that means but as someone else asked, what are the plugs telling you? If the carb goes real fat, not all ignition systems can fire that. If it goes lean the plugs misfire, glaze up or break insulators.So learn to read plugs and always carry a spare set, until you get the hang of it.

And if you really want to do yourself a favor, run the carb on the primaries only, and get that dialed in first.Take your time, one change atta time. Don't melt it down. May the force be with you.
 
Sounds like a distributor job would help. Give it all the initial it will take and still start when hot then limit the total advance based on that setup. Should kick that 60' time in the butt. What do the plugs look like after a pass?

Plugs all look brand new. I have a new pump to make sure I'm not loosing pressure.

The car also hesitates if I am driving and floor it quickly. That's related with the stuttering I believe.
 
More fun to test the at the track. Lower ET comes from tuning your combo.
Best tool I ever bought was a wideband AFR. No guessing and you can see every change you make in AFR readout.
I assume your ignition curve is done. Around 20* initial, 34 total?
Get a 650DP and tune it for drag racing. Throttle response should be snappy and 60' should drop. Dual pump shot gets you out of the hole better.
Your cam is 241@50, IMO you need more converter and gear for drag racing.
I've tuned 6/10 out of my combo and there is more in it. I have a notebook and make one change at a time. If it works I keep it.
 
Also launch technique is important. Flash or brake stall? Unloaded or loaded suspension makes a big difference on how things work off the line sometimes. If your plugs are that clean it sounds like it needs to be richened up a little and that can help fill in that top end too... If it doesn't allow you to run healthy advance without ping that is another indication you are lean.
 
Also launch technique is important. Flash or brake stall? Unloaded or loaded suspension makes a big difference on how things work off the line sometimes. If your plugs are that clean it sounds like it needs to be richened up a little and that can help fill in that top end too... If it doesn't allow you to run healthy advance without ping that is another indication you are lean.

As soon as the roads clean up I'll take it back out on the street for some pulls.

I was loading the suspension up but I can't remember exactly what I launched at. That is written on my note pad which is at the shop at my dads. I want to say it was almost at 2000 though.
 
Running shift loops will tell you what the combo wants to be shifted at. If you don't give her what she wants, she won't give you what you want.
FWIW, my combo, very similar to yours, has been shifted most of it's life at 7000Plus. Not because it needs to, but because I love the sound of the screaming pipes at 7200. The engine has not been freshened since 2004, and has over 100,000 miles on it. It is a garage-build.

The only significant differences between yours and mine is the cam. I have a Hughes HE3037, which is 230/237@050 and 276/286/110 advertised, with lifts of .549/.571with 1.6 arms. Additionally my 750 is a DP. My intake is the AG version of your performer RPM. And I run OOTB Eddies at 10.7 SCR. She's a 4spd and lights up 295/50-15s to deep into second gear, with just a little pedal off idle. What I'm trying to say is that yours can do this too, with a few hours of tuning.
 
I built my motor last winter and had some disappointing runs at the track that were the result of lose of power at the top end at high rpm. I had a best run of 13.44 at 99 mph. My 60 foot was 1.95 with no spinning and going off the brake pedal. I was shifting at 6000 rpm and going out the back around 5500. If I fix the stuttering at the big end and tune the timing a bit I could get close to a 12.99 but I'm still not feeling the power. I really am about to pull the motor out and take it somewhere to get it dialed in.

Some details on my car.

73 swinger
360 .30 over
Speed pro flat top Pistons
Eddie heads with very little work
Performer rpm intake
Mp .484 can
Holley 750 with vac secondaries
Electronic distributor
Chrome ignition box
727 with 2800 rpm stall
8 1:4 with 3:55 sure trip
Hoosier qtp tires
With aluminum heads the car should be a mid 12's car.. What Holley 750? What is the compression ratio? What's your timing at? Was the cam degree'd? Running a spacer between the intake/carb? Whats your exhaust system consist of? Hopefully not running straight race fuel?

Engine dyno time is not as expensive as you think.. I'm looking at $400 plus fuel for my new big block to be dyno broke in, and tuned - but I have most of the tuning parts - the only thing the engine dyno cannot help with is drive-ability obviously but will be super easy to set timing and jetting up to get the most out of it..

I'd buy a $200 wideband o2 gauge and $200 in carb tuning parts (VS springs, jet kit, pump cams/squirters), and I also agree the stall converter is a tad on the low side

I'm hoping for 450hp out of a aluminum head 383, and 12.50's first time out..
 
To me, it sounds like you are shifting too early.
And you have a totally wrong gear,
But the 99MPH tells the real story, you are way down on power.

My 360 is very similar to yours, and with 3.55s and at 3850(me in it),and a much smaller cam, went 106 with no tuning at all. Back in 1971,my totally stock 70 Swinger340 at 3110(me in it,IIRC), also with 3.55s but with a 4spd, went 99mph.To me that makes it look like you are making a little more power than a stock 1970 Swinger 340.More cuz I'm sure the raceweight of your 73 is more than 3110.
So the question is why are you so down. It has got to be in the tune.

--Taking it out, and to the dyno is a huge investment in time and money.They are gonna do a lot of things that you can do yourself.And there will be a lot of things that they won't do, that you will need to do, later.
--I would go back to the basics; compression test, leakdown test, and timing test. If she's got more MPH in her, these tests will prove it. Or not.Then make sure the secondaries are opening, and that the carb is not fat.Fat will just kill mph.
--The no tire-spin and 1.95 60fts tell the same story; at a stall speed of 2800, there is nobody home.This can be traced to low cylinder pressure,insufficient timing and slow secondaries or fat carb. So again, it points to the tune. The Dyno may not catch this, cuz they are concentrating on WOT fuel and timing, and trying to maximize those numbers.And they do a good job of that. But when you get it back, you still have to make it driveable.

--So as to the basics; For a strong launch at 2800, you need torque. The 284 ain't that soft at 2800, so Ima gonna guess the timing is lazy down there or the cylinder pressure is low, or the secondaries are not opening. So if it doesn't respond favorably to increased timing or faster secondaries, then the next step is a compression test. Actually, I would start with that.At least then you can rule out compression. Or not. 165psi will make a good launch. 120psi will be lazy. 140 can be made to work, but probably not with a 2800TC, or 3.55s. Less than 120 you are gonna need way more gear.Ima thinkin 4.57s will get you around 107 at 6000 with 28s. I'm not suggesting you run those, just that with 120psi, you are gonna need all the help you can get.
--Concentrate on getting the mph up, and the ET will follow.Once the MPH plateaus, try shifting it at a higher rpm.Go up 200 at a time, til it slows down, then back up the bus;100 at a time until it peaks. With a 727, it will want a different shift rpm for each gear. This is because the gears are not evenly spaced.(With your combo you might be able to trap in second gear;With 28s, 105mph is about 6500rpm.) Then try a different power-timing, again looking for a max mph.When you finally get that mph thing bugged out; then start tuning the launch.

BTW, I heard you say stuttering at the big end. Not sure what that means but as someone else asked, what are the plugs telling you? If the carb goes real fat, not all ignition systems can fire that. If it goes lean the plugs misfire, glaze up or break insulators.So learn to read plugs and always carry a spare set, until you get the hang of it.

And if you really want to do yourself a favor, run the carb on the primaries only, and get that dialed in first.Take your time, one change atta time. Don't melt it down. May the force be with you.

Great post. I'll be harrowing a compression tester asap. I'll play around with the timing but our track will not be open for a few months so that's going to hurt.
 
Your MPH may be a bit low, it DOES relate to how much HP the engine makes. But with your 60ft that bad, there is a bunch of ET improvement just in the convertor alone. Get the timing and jetting correct, and have a GOOD convertor built for it, you will be amazed at what it will do.
 
Your car isn't making power, period.

My 340 with stock J heads, 214/224 .445/.465 cam went 102mph. A 484 cammed 360 with ede's should be in the high 100 and maybe over 110 mph.

Ignition timing, cam timing, fuel delivery all play a part in getting down the track. Something is very wrong. It could be really rich, could be lean. An A/F meter comes in handy for this stuff. I'd spend that dyno money on an AF gauge.
 
Your car isn't making power, period.

My 340 with stock J heads, 214/224 .445/.465 cam went 102mph. A 484 cammed 360 with ede's should be in the high 100 and maybe over 110 mph.

Ignition timing, cam timing, fuel delivery all play a part in getting down the track. Something is very wrong. It could be really rich, could be lean. An A/F meter comes in handy for this stuff. I'd spend that dyno money on an AF gauge.

The digging will start this weekend and I will report back with results.
 
A dyno can tell you some. I agree with cracked - it's not making much steam. But the question becomes is it tuning setup, or parts, or assembly, or machining? IMO, you can do basic diagnostics and buy the right tools for less than 1/2 the price of an engine dyno session. I'd want a leak down on it first, and cylinder pressure readings. If things there look hokey, then you can pull it out and start pulling it apart to find the cause(s).
 
A dyno can tell you some. I agree with cracked - it's not making much steam. But the question becomes is it tuning setup, or parts, or assembly, or machining? IMO, you can do basic diagnostics and buy the right tools for less than 1/2 the price of an engine dyno session. I'd want a leak down on it first, and cylinder pressure readings. If things there look hokey, then you can pull it out and start pulling it apart to find the cause(s).

I should have good decent compression. I had some help from a seasoned vet but ya never know.

I would be lying if I said I wasn't nervous. I'm not wanting to pull this motor out again and go through it.
 
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