Is this engine builder nuts?

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KevinB

KevinB

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Maybe I'm missing something here. I have planned in finding an engine builder to at least get my 318 into a rowdy long block. I found a company near my work that builds engines, mostly ford, but some mopar too. After talking to him for an hour his thoughts were:

To get 350hp from a 318 you need 10:1 cr. He's also pushing for a roller cam and roller rockers. I'm unsure of what Pistons he had in mind. We also discussed porting and polishing my 273 920 casting heads. He claims with a cr of 9.5:1 and the valve train work I'll be about 320 hp.

Does this sound right? I guess I was under the impression it took less to get hp from a 318.

He's also saying for $5500 he will do all the needed block and head work, source the valve train parts, intake, water pump, and pistons, balance the assembly, and install the engine in the car to see it run. I'm still coming to terms with the price, I can't figure out if it's a decent deal or not. ThoughtS?
 
How much do you think it should cost?
 
Why waste time with factory heads when aftermarket heads can be had so easily ?
Heads are pumps !!
Better pumps will pump you up !!!
 
And I don't think his price is bad considering he's also installing it !
 
stock early hi compression 340's were only 275 hp and your pistons will be smaller
you'll have to cam and spin a 318 to get 350 hp and it may cost you some lo rpm power
..i'm betting you'd be happier with 275 hp and a short duration cam on the street
 
Well I guess I could always go the magnum route, but if he's right I suppose I should adjust my expectations
 
If you need 350 hp there's easier, possibly, cheaper ways to get it.

But if you just want a snappy teener, for a streeter, I'd have to say; adjust your expectations. 275 crank horsepower in a lightweight A-body can be a ton-O-fun! This is just a lil cam, a small 4bbl, and a free-flowing exhaust, with headers.A little head work, and it can be a lil more funner. For a street-teener, IMO a guy needs to concentrate on torque, and let the power fall where it may.And here's why. Most street fooling around is done in 2nd gear, and 30/35 mph. well then your engine is doing (with 3.55s) about 2100/2200. If you don't have torque there, don't even bother. But let's say you have a shift-kit in your 904, and it kicks down in a heartbeat. Then in 1st it will be spinning at 3600ish. Now you are getting somewhere. A 340 type cam, or a little smaller, will make good torque at this rpm, but a cam big enough to make 350hp in your teener, is still nearly 1000 rpm from it's torque peak, and probably not yet making as a much as a cam of 2, or possibly 3, sizes smaller.So instead of shopping for 350 hp (which in a teener will take quite a bit of rpm, and therfore a comparatively long duration cam), you should be considering to build an engine to maximize torque just where you need/want it.
If you select a rear gear first, and figure the tranny powerband out, and decide just when/where you want the torque to be, this makes picking the cam much easier.A little head work to maximize the upper Rs, and possibly extend the Powerband a bit, and maybe a lil TC to get you out of the hole, and it's done. Now don't go wanting to make any big changes. Just drive it and enjoy it!
Don't forget; if you match your powerband to your tranny,and optimize the combo, you will get the most out of it that she is able to give.A big cammed engine will want a looser TC and bigger gears. Mo-money.
The only thing worse than a big-cammed, lil-engine, stuck in your A,with a lo-stall TC, and hi-way gears, would be to drop it into a big heavy car.
Ok, end of rambling.....
 
Not that his price sounds high, it doesn't. But for that money why don't you just buy a crate engine with a warranty? Done deal and your running down the road.
 
PhillH said:
Not that his price sounds high, it doesn't. But for that money why don't you just buy a crate engine with a warranty? Done deal and your running down the road.
Click to expand...



That's kind of what I was thinking. But if it comes down to it, I'll probably choose less hp over more money.

Another thing he said that threw me off was, "I'd recommend 4.10 gears, especially in a car that heavy. If you've got 320 hp and a 2200 torque converter, it could feel like a dog when you're just cruising around."

This car will see some highway miles and I don't want to be doing 3500 rpm at 65 or something.
 
Price sounds like it should be, especially with a roller cam and roller rockers, and the porting needed. We are pushing $5k, doing our own assembly work on a 340 with new Edlebrock heads, intake, pistons, cam, carb, and the usual parts, but no roller cam. So, your price may even be a bit low.....

If this guy is not a Mopar Specialist, I would go the route of new heads rather than porting the 920's. You'll end up with better heads. But then you need to see if you really want to spend that level on a smaller engine, of go with a lower HP and a less serious build.

The CR will help a wider RPM operating range...but that begs the question of what you are doing with this engine? Street? Daily driver? Drag only?
 
Once a week drive to work, a cruise on the weekend occasionally and down the strip once or twice


nm9stheham said:
Price sounds like it should be, especially with a roller cam and roller rockers, and the porting needed. We are pushing $5k, doing our own assembly work on a 340 with new Edlebrock heads, intake, pistons, cam, carb, and the usual parts, but no roller cam. So, your price may even be a bit low.....

If this guy is not a Mopar Specialist, I would go the route of new heads rather than porting the 920's. You'll end up with better heads. But then you need to see if you really want to spend that level on a smaller engine, of go with a lower HP and a less serious build.

The CR will help a wider RPM operating range...but that begs the question of what you are doing with this engine? Street? Daily driver? Drag only?
Click to expand...
 
He's just covering his a$$ with the 4.10s
325hp 2200 stall and 4.10 will blow street tires off the rims.
Build a 360 for cheap if 325hp is all you need.
 
AJ/FormS said:
If you need 350 hp there's easier, possibly, cheaper ways to get it.

If you just want a snappy teener, for a streeter, adjust your expectations. 275 crank horsepower in a lightweight A-body can be a ton-O-fun! This is just a lil cam, a small 4bbl, and a free-flowing exhaust, with headers.A little head work, and it can be a lil more funner. Don't forget; if you match your powerband to your tranny,and optimize the combo, you will get the most out of it that she is able to give.
Click to expand...

X2 from the times I have driven my car with that ^ setup aside from headers and head work it has been a blast.
 
Ok so my 8.8 already had 3.73 gears, the 904 is untouched right now but I plan on upgrading its internals.

So I guess what I'm wondering is, at 300-320 hp, is the upgrade to a roller cam and rockers even necessary?



AJ/FormS said:
If you need 350 hp there's easier, possibly, cheaper ways to get it.

But if you just want a snappy teener, for a streeter, I'd have to say; adjust your expectations. 275 crank horsepower in a lightweight A-body can be a ton-O-fun! This is just a lil cam, a small 4bbl, and a free-flowing exhaust, with headers.A little head work, and it can be a lil more funner. For a street-teener, IMO a guy needs to concentrate on torque, and let the power fall where it may.And here's why. Most street fooling around is done in 2nd gear, and 30/35 mph. well then your engine is doing (with 3.55s) about 2100/2200. If you don't have torque there, don't even bother. But let's say you have a shift-kit in your 904, and it kicks down in a heartbeat. Then in 1st it will be spinning at 3600ish. Now you are getting somewhere. A 340 type cam, or a little smaller, will make good torque at this rpm, but a cam big enough to make 350hp in your teener, is still nearly 1000 rpm from it's torque peak, and probably not yet making as a much as a cam of 2, or possibly 3, sizes smaller.So instead of shopping for 350 hp (which in a teener will take quite a bit of rpm, and therfore a comparatively long duration cam), you should be considering to build an engine to maximize torque just where you need/want it.
If you select a rear gear first, and figure the tranny powerband out, and decide just when/where you want the torque to be, this makes picking the cam much easier.A little head work to maximize the upper Rs, and possibly extend the Powerband a bit, and maybe a lil TC to get you out of the hole, and it's done. Now don't go wanting to make any big changes. Just drive it and enjoy it!
Don't forget; if you match your powerband to your tranny,and optimize the combo, you will get the most out of it that she is able to give.A big cammed engine will want a looser TC and bigger gears. Mo-money.
The only thing worse than a big-cammed, lil-engine, stuck in your A,with a lo-stall TC, and hi-way gears, would be to drop it into a big heavy car.
Ok, end of rambling.....
Click to expand...
 
Is it necessary?-no. Desireable? yes. As time marches on those roller lifters can save you a bunch of time and money.
Consider that wiping a lobe can happen at any time these days. Guys have gotten away with just an oil-change, but the proper long term solution is a complete tear-down and regasket. Mo-money. And the do-over is mo-time.
And a cam-swap, is on everybody's "want list". A flat-tappet requires matching lifters.
Street roller lifters hardly ever wipe, and go from cam to cam.
Flat tappet cams require top-quality oils to survive, while rollers? You didn't hear it from me, but they have been known to survive for at least a decade on the cheapest re-refined crude out there.
Keep in mind that you can get after-market retro-rollers for your LA these days
 
Vr-1 oil is only 5 -6 bucks a quart been using it for three years !quit scaring people.
 
I live in Canada. Even Cheap oil is $6/7per liter. And our liters are a hair smaller than your 32 oz qts.And the retail on filters is approaching $15.Can. So an oilchange is $46Can, parts only, and cheap oil. So thats about $200 a year/12000miles. If you put cheap, bought-on-sale,semi-synthetic in your roller teener it could be $46 a year, unless maybe you have to add a liter.So in 5 years you could save $770Can. And if you lose a lobe? Thats an easy $700Can, to restore properly.
Now how much do we pay for a roller core? Around here, a teener is just about nothing. But say 150Can at the worst. And you can have a 360 for the same money.And the difference from a flat tappet kit to a roller kit? Idk. But certainly less than: 770+700-150 = 1320. And now I would have a 360 Magnum core. And 350HP is pie. And 430 ftlbs is pie too.And for a streeter;that is 3.23/3.55 territory
But to the OP..........like I said; necessary?,no. Desirable?,yes.
 
Peyote said:
Once a week drive to work, a cruise on the weekend occasionally and down the strip once or twice
Click to expand...
OK, you're gonna enjoy it with a lower HP. I think the 340 being stock with 275 HP is a good comment....and those were inflated HP back then. Just imagine a 340 engined car....

As for the roller cam and the comments on the lobes and such... all true. I have been contemplating a roller in a planned build. But for occasional use, I can buy a LOT of Gibbs Driven LS30 high zinc synthetic at $11-12 per quart, for the same price of a roller cam and lifters. For a simple occasional driver (or, in my case, a rally car engine raced 2-3-4 times per year), I am leaning towards just buying higher priced oil and sticking with the simple flat tappet.

The roller cam is not at all necessary for 1 HP per cubic inch by the way. We expect 375 HP from our 340 with a flat tappet and decently good breathing. (Calculator says 400 but I am not greedy.) But,the roller can have more aggressive ramps, and so can get high lift with less duration, and that can be used to make it a less peaky engine in the torque and HP versus RPM departments, or used to get more raw peak HP. Part of the better overall good torque/HP vs. RPM ranges in new engines is due to the roller cams, and some of the improved efficiency (mileage) comes from there too.

So it has it's advantages.... with an initial cost. But again, for an occasional driver, it may drive up the cost too much.
 
Look at magnum swaps site, he had a stock bottom end 360 mag in the 11's and had $2200 in his engine.
 
My last two race engines cost me over $9000 each
I doing a GTO for a customer and his engine- redo heads with new valve springs, valve job , boil and surface $500 for the pair -short block= crank bearings, cam bearings, rebuild rods new ARP bolts, hone , line hone, straighten crank and polish new rod bearings and rings. $1700. That is reusing his cam ,lifters, pushrods rockers and pistons.
Plus new carb-$375
Distributor-$200
Wire-$85
Oil pump -pickup & shaft-$85
Gasket set with head gaskets$135
Water pump-fuel pump intake bolts ect.
It adds up quick
 
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