Jehovah's Witnesses

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Okay guys, just letting you know that I'm working on compiling significant information that will show you that God most definitely does have a personal name. I will include my sources, including published works and findings of historians, professors, scholars, and archaeologists. I will also provide direct quotes from published works from sources such as the Vatican and the Encyclopedia Britannica.


Here is a short list of published works that use Gods personal name (all of which were produced long before the New World Translation):

  • A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter (1863)

  • The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson (1864)

  • The Epistles of Paul in Modern English, by George Barker Stevens (1898)

  • St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford (1900)

  • The Christian’s Bible—New Testament, by George N. LeFevre (1928)

  • The New Testament Letters, by J.W.C. Wand, Bishop of London (1946)


    I will provide a list of dozens and dozens of other Bible translations and reference works that use Gods personal name, including the Catholic Jerusalem Bible and the Catholic La Biblia Latinoamerica, which freely use Gods name.

In fact, there are almost 100 different language translations that use Gods name, (the vernacular form of the Tetragrammaton). Clearly, the New World Translation was not the first Bible to use Gods personal name.


Here is a sample quote of one of many highly regarded authorities on the subject of the existence and usage of the Divine name:

Professor George Howard wrote: “We have three separate pre-Christian copies of the Greek Septuagint Bible and in not a single instance is the Tetragrammaton translated kyrios or for that matter translated at all. We can now say with near certainty that it was a Jewish practice before, during, and after the New Testament period to write the divine name . . . right into the Greek text of Scripture.”—Biblical Archaeology Review.


I'm going to share with you are many, many verifiable resources that will show you that God indeed does have a personal name. If you choose not to use it, that's on you. Some still refuse to acknowledge or accept this enlightening and convincing evidence of Gods personal name throughout the Old and the New Testament (the Hebrew and the Greek scriptures) for their own reasons. But millions of people, myself included, feel strongly otherwise! Just be ready to be surprised if you previously thought that God and his son are one and the same, or that God is part of a trinity.
 
My brother in law (may he rest in peace) said it best. When they came a knocking he asked them if they heard of the 11th commandment. They had a blank look on their faces. He replied to them . Thy shall not pedal bull **** from door to door. They couldn't leave fast enough. They never came back again. Kim
 
They came to my door once. I told them I'd be happy to attend one of their meetings if they'd attend one of ours. Convinced them we were devil worshippers. Never heard from them again.
 
I give them or any religious person that comes to my house the same amount of attention as I give the solar people. NONE
 
bighammer said:
Okay guys, just letting you know that I'm working on compiling significant information that will show you that God most definitely does have a personal name. I will include my sources, including published works and findings of historians, professors, scholars, and archaeologists. I will also provide direct quotes from published works from sources such as the Vatican and the Encyclopedia Britannica.
.
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No need to quote from a bunch of various writings of professors or the sorts. I posted just some scriptures in the Bible that already state God most definitely does have a personal name... JESUS. Just stick to the Bible. I've given you a lot of scriptures in all of my previous posts (and I have many, many more that I could give you). Your Jehovah of old walked right out of the old testament into the new testament. And he brought with him a new covenant salvation, in which was preached in the book of Acts. And all over the Book of Acts, the early church prayed, preached, taught, testified and witnessed in the name Jesus......... Everywhere!
 
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arguing religion is sorta like arguing politics.

churches are made up of people. we ( people) are flawed. maybe there is something in religion to help us not be so flawed??

I am not smart enough to know the "truth" of where it all comes from, or which religion is "right".

I see and feel my creator is everything He created.

just tryng to make it thru the rest of m life without any more unnecessary mistakes.

just me.
 
Bless you all on this fine Sunday Morning..... Glad to see everyone is in Study finding the truth's....
One thing is for sure..... He's coming back to take his people....
Make sure you have your ticket..... The Answers will all be answered....

Carry-On ..... Never stop Believing..
 
Woodie said:
The Unified field.. That **** will blow your mind. "All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are one Conscience experiencing itself subjectively, There is no such thing as Death. Life is a dream, and We are the imagination of our own self"
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...Heres Tom with the Weather.
 
barbee6043 said:
arguing religion is sorta like arguing politics.

churches are made up of people. we ( people) are flawed. maybe there is something in religion to help us not be so flawed??

I am not smart enough to know the "truth" of where it all comes from, or which religion is "right".

I see and feel my creator is everything He created.

just tryng to make it thru the rest of m life without any more unnecessary mistakes.

just me.
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I like this post a lot :thumbsup:
This single post is so deep......... you cannot get it's full meaning by reading it once. It is actually so inline with the word of God, and the beginning of knowing God.... I'll take this over any professor. Glad you posted it.
 
Wait! What do you mean Jesus loves me? Did he say something to you? OMG, I'm freaking out right now! Tell me his exact words!
 
bighammer said:
Okay guys, just letting you know that I'm working on compiling significant information that will show you that God most definitely does have a personal name. I will include my sources, including published works and findings of historians, professors, scholars, and archaeologists. I will also provide direct quotes from published works from sources such as the Vatican and the Encyclopedia Britannica.


Here is a short list of published works that use Gods personal name (all of which were produced long before the New World Translation):

  • A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter (1863)

  • The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson (1864)

  • The Epistles of Paul in Modern English, by George Barker Stevens (1898)

  • St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford (1900)

  • The Christian’s Bible—New Testament, by George N. LeFevre (1928)

  • The New Testament Letters, by J.W.C. Wand, Bishop of London (1946)


    I will provide a list of dozens and dozens of other Bible translations and reference works that use Gods personal name, including the Catholic Jerusalem Bible and the Catholic La Biblia Latinoamerica, which freely use Gods name.

In fact, there are almost 100 different language translations that use Gods name, (the vernacular form of the Tetragrammaton). Clearly, the New World Translation was not the first Bible to use Gods personal name.


Here is a sample quote of one of many highly regarded authorities on the subject of the existence and usage of the Divine name:

Professor George Howard wrote: “We have three separate pre-Christian copies of the Greek Septuagint Bible and in not a single instance is the Tetragrammaton translated kyrios or for that matter translated at all. We can now say with near certainty that it was a Jewish practice before, during, and after the New Testament period to write the divine name . . . right into the Greek text of Scripture.”—Biblical Archaeology Review.


I'm going to share with you are many, many verifiable resources that will show you that God indeed does have a personal name. If you choose not to use it, that's on you. Some still refuse to acknowledge or accept this enlightening and convincing evidence of Gods personal name throughout the Old and the New Testament (the Hebrew and the Greek scriptures) for their own reasons. But millions of people, myself included, feel strongly otherwise! Just be ready to be surprised if you previously thought that God and his son are one and the same, or that God is part of a trinity.
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I'll answer this post very quickly. The FIRST MSS you quote is a VATICAN MSS!!!! Does that not ring hollow to you? What does ANY Protestant denomination have to do with ANYTHING form the VATICAN?
 
For bighammer...

I did some research yesterday and I'll post it here for the sake of hopefully ending this part of the discussion. Here goes...

There are only 2, thats is TWO sets of manuscripts (MSS) that are available with which to translate the Scriptures. That it. Only TWO. While I'm thinking about it, older does NOT mean better. In fact, there are only copies of copies left. There are no original copies left. Period. So it's copies of copies.

Of those copies, the oldest copies are claimed by Wescott and Hort to be FAR better than the newer Recieved Text. Amazingly, this "older" text was found in St. Catherine's monistary! How Catholic is that???? And of this older stream of documents, there are only 5, that's right FIVE documents!

If we look at the other stream of documents, the Textus Receptus while the copies are not as old, have much much more documentation. In the TR there are about 1900 verified documents. What's more, those documents are in virtually every language on the globe. So, before the early 1900's the whole world used essentially the same Bible, in their own language.

Again, I ask is older better? Or is more documentation, all in agreement, in a multitude of tongues, the best documentation with which to translate the Scriptures?

It's simple really. All Bibles before 1900 or so came from the same manuscripts, the Textus Receptus. And they all said the same thing. A German Bible said the same as a Syrian Bible, or a Portuguese Bible. That is not so today.

Today, virtually all the "modern" translations come from the "older" MSS, which by the way are the same MSS that the Vatican used to develop the counter Reformation Bible.

I'll post some numbers in my next post.
 
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In post 139 I gave a short discussion on the history of the MSS used to translate the Bibles we have today.
Now, I want to post some numbers to show just how many changes there are in the new Bibles that come from these junk "older" MSS.

The numbers I post are changes made in the several versions as compared to the Bible that was given to us in the Textus Receptus. Here goes....

Number of verses affected:

NASB 909
RV 788
NWT 767 This is the JW Bible
NIV 695
Good News 614
Amplified 484
Douay 421 This is the Catholic Bible the pope said was infallible!!!!!
NKJV 1200

These numbers are from the book "Which Bible Can We Trust" by Les Garrett.
If you look at these numbers, one would have to believe that God Himself allowed man to stumble through the centuries and open and close the Reformation with a substandard Bible that needed to be corrected 400-1200 times.

These numbers would require that God hides things from man, and man was misled for CENTURIES by using MSS that were corrupted. It is just no so.

I could give many changes to the Bibles to show how silly it is to defend these "modern" translations but here I'll only give just one example.

Grab a NWT (JW) Bible and go to John, chapter 8 1:11 and notice the NWT has deleted the entire text? So we are to believe that all the others who used the TR were stupid and didn't get it correct, but Wescott and Hort were two smart fellows God brought along at the right time in history to "fix" the errors of the past?

BTW, most of the other translations leave it all there, but use a note in the margin. This is what the NIV says, and I quote "The earliest MSS and many other "ancient" "witnesses" do not have John 7:53-8-11".

Again, I say is older better? No!

It is beyond arrogant to think God would wait for thousands of years to correct his Scriptures. But that is what the people who clamor for "modern" Bibles want us to think. How can you change or erase hundreds of words, phrases and verses and only have 5, that is FIVE MSS, when the TR had 1900?
 
all I can say is this. in my heart and soul, I believe there is a Divinity. call it who or what one likes. I know I have made mistakes, sinned, done wrong... call it what you like. and I believe I have been forgiven. and it is my responsibility to try my best to live and not make these mistakes which I know are wrong.

and it is also my personal belief, that my faith, be it my personal faith, gives me a strength and calmness, that I have found no where else.

I am not a well learned person of my Christian faith, and I am a private person, I am not a "people" person, and I don not try to impose my beliefs on others, NOR do I fault those that do.... I will leave it at that...

no.. I will say this... for those hurting souls, I truly hope and prey they look for their answer. and I say that not as a speaker of any particular religion. but simply as a person that has found there is an answer. that simple. done.
 
318willrun said:
No need to quote from a bunch of various writings of professors or the sorts. I posted just some scriptures in the Bible that already state God most definitely does have a personal name... JESUS. Just stick to the Bible. I've given you a lot of scriptures in all of my previous posts (and I have many, many more that I could give you). Your Jehovah of old walked right out of the old testament into the new testament.
Click to expand...

Are Jesus and God the same person? Or as proposed by an earlier comment, is Jehovah of old Jesus of today? What does the Bible say?? It's clear that they are two different individuals. Jesus of today is still subject to his father, the Almighty, and there is a vast amount of scriptural proof. Read what the Bible says:


Jesus’ opposers accused him of making himself equal to God. (John 5:18; 10:30-33) However, Jesus never claimed to be on the same level as Almighty God. He said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

Jesus’ early followers did not view him as being equal to Almighty God. For example, the apostle Paul wrote that after Jesus was resurrected, God “exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position.” Obviously, Paul did not believe that Jesus was Almighty God. Otherwise, how could God exalt Jesus to a superior position? —Philippians 2:9.




"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) This scripture alone should be enough to satisfy the argument. But there are plenty more.. BTW, here is the KJV, word for word: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3, (KJV) There is no confusing wording here. It's plain English, showing the distinction between Jesus and his Father, the Almighty.


Jesus’ disciples had no doubt that he was the promised Messiah. (John 1:41) For example, Simon Peter said to Jesus: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16)

The Bible teaches that Jesus lived in heaven for a long time before he came to earth. Micah said that the Messiah was “from ancient times.” (Micah 5:2) Note that it does not say that he had no beginning, as is the case of the Creator.


Jesus is very precious to Jehovah. Why? Because God created him before everything and everyone else. So Jesus is called “the firstborn of all creation.” *(Colossians 1:15) Jesus is also precious to Jehovah because he is the only one Jehovah created directly. That is why he is called the “only-begotten Son.” (John 3:16) Jesus is also the only one Jehovah used to create all other things. (Colossians 1:16) And only Jesus is called “the Word,” because Jehovah used him to give messages and instructions to angels and humans.—John 1:14.



Some people believe that Jesus and God are the same person. But that’s not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that Jesus was created, which means that Jesus had a beginning. But Jehovah, who created all things, had no beginning. (Psalm 90:2) As God’s Son, Jesus never thought of trying to be God. The Bible clearly teaches that the Father is greater than the Son. (Read John 14:28;1 Corinthians 11:3.) Only Jehovah is “God Almighty.” (Genesis 17:1) He is the greatest and most powerful person in the universe.

Jehovah and his Son, Jesus, worked closely together for billions of years before the heavens and the earth were created. They must have loved each other very much! (John 3:35; 14:31) Jesus imitated his father’s qualities so well that the Bible calls him “the image of the invisible God.”—Colossians 1:15.


Jesus referred to himself as “God’s Son” or “the Son of God.” (John 10:36; 11:4) Jesus never identified himself as Almighty God.

Moreover, Jesus prayed to God. (Matthew 26:39) And while teaching his followers how to pray, Jesus said: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.”—Matthew 6:9.


1 Corinthians 11:3, KJV: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Jesus revealed God’s name when he quoted an ancient passage of Scripture and said: “Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Mark 12:29;Deuteronomy 6:4.

Jehovah has made it very clear that Jesus is the Messiah. God promised to give John the Baptizer a sign so that he would know who the Messiah was. When Jesus went to John to get baptized in the Jordan River in the year 29 C.E., John saw that sign. The Bible tells us what happened: “After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: ‘This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.’” (Matthew 3:16, 17)


And now for a little grammar / translation lesson: One example of a Bible verse that is often misused is John 1:1. In the King James Version, that verse reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Greek, ton the·onʹ], and the Word was God [the·osʹ].” This verse contains two forms of the Greek noun the·osʹ (god). The first is preceded by ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article, and in this case the word the·onʹ refers to Almighty God. In the second instance, however, the·osʹ has no definite article. Was the article mistakenly left out? ...

The Gospel of John was written in Koine, or common Greek, which has specific rules regarding the use of the definite article. Bible scholar A. T. Robertson recognizes that if both subject and predicate have articles, “both are definite, treated as identical, one and the same, and interchangeable.” Robertson considers as an example Matthew 13:38, which reads: “The field [Greek, ho a·grosʹ] is the world [Greek, ho koʹsmos].” The grammar enables us to understand that the world is also the field.

What, though, if the subject has a definite article but the predicate does not, as in John 1:1? Citing that verse as an example, scholar James Allen Hewett emphasizes: “In such a construction the subject and predicate are not the same, equal, identical, or anything of the sort.”

Many Greek scholars and Bible translators acknowledge that John 1:1 highlights, not the identity, but a quality of “the Word.” Says Bible translator William Barclay: “Because [the apostle John] has no definite article in front of theos it becomes a description . . . John is not here identifying the Word with God. To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God.” Scholar Jason David BeDuhn likewise says: “In Greek, if you leave off the article from theos in a sentence like the one in John 1:1c, then your readers will assume you mean ‘a god.’ . . . Its absence makes theos quite different than the definite ho theos, as different as ‘a god’ is from ‘God’ in English.” BeDuhn adds: “In John 1:1, the Word is not the one-and-only God, but is a god, or divine being.” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on the American Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.”

To illustrate, Hewett uses 1 John 1:5, which says: “God is light.” In Greek, “God” is ho the·osʹ and therefore has a definite article. But phos for “light” is not preceded by any article. Hewett points out: “One can always . . . say of God He is characterized by light; one cannot always say of light that it is God.” Similar examples are found at John 4:24, “God is a Spirit,” and at 1 John 4:16, “God is love.” In both of these verses, the subjects have definite articles but the predicates, “Spirit” and “love,” do not. So the subjects and predicates are not interchangeable. These verses cannot mean that “Spirit is God” or “love is God.”


Does the identity of God have to be “a very profound mystery”? It did not seem so to Jesus. In his prayer to his Father, Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father when he said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) If we believe Jesus and understand the plain teaching of the Bible, we will respect him as the divine Son of God that he is. We will also worship Jehovah as “the only true God.”


So, as requested, I've stuck with the Bible and provided quite a few scriptures that make it clear that "Jehovah of old" is definitely not "Jesus of today"! They are two distinct individuals, and there are many many more scriptures that I could have shared to give further proof. I hope that this has been helpful for anyone looking for answers to what the Bible really says on the subject!

Mark
 
bighammer said:
Are Jesus and God the same person? Or as proposed by an earlier comment, is Jehovah of old Jesus of today? What does the Bible say?? It's clear that they are two different individuals. Jesus of today is still subject to his father, the Almighty, and there is a vast amount of scriptural proof. Read what the Bible says:


Jesus’ opposers accused him of making himself equal to God. (John 5:18; 10:30-33) However, Jesus never claimed to be on the same level as Almighty God. He said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

Jesus’ early followers did not view him as being equal to Almighty God. For example, the apostle Paul wrote that after Jesus was resurrected, God “exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position.” Obviously, Paul did not believe that Jesus was Almighty God. Otherwise, how could God exalt Jesus to a superior position? —Philippians 2:9.




"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) This scripture alone should be enough to satisfy the argument. But there are plenty more.. BTW, here is the KJV, word for word: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3, (KJV) There is no confusing wording here. It's plain English, showing the distinction between Jesus and his Father, the Almighty.


Jesus’ disciples had no doubt that he was the promised Messiah. (John 1:41) For example, Simon Peter said to Jesus: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16)

The Bible teaches that Jesus lived in heaven for a long time before he came to earth. Micah said that the Messiah was “from ancient times.” (Micah 5:2) Note that it does not say that he had no beginning, as is the case of the Creator.


Jesus is very precious to Jehovah. Why? Because God created him before everything and everyone else. So Jesus is called “the firstborn of all creation.” *(Colossians 1:15) Jesus is also precious to Jehovah because he is the only one Jehovah created directly. That is why he is called the “only-begotten Son.” (John 3:16) Jesus is also the only one Jehovah used to create all other things. (Colossians 1:16) And only Jesus is called “the Word,” because Jehovah used him to give messages and instructions to angels and humans.—John 1:14.



Some people believe that Jesus and God are the same person. But that’s not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that Jesus was created, which means that Jesus had a beginning. But Jehovah, who created all things, had no beginning. (Psalm 90:2) As God’s Son, Jesus never thought of trying to be God. The Bible clearly teaches that the Father is greater than the Son. (Read John 14:28;1 Corinthians 11:3.) Only Jehovah is “God Almighty.” (Genesis 17:1) He is the greatest and most powerful person in the universe.

Jehovah and his Son, Jesus, worked closely together for billions of years before the heavens and the earth were created. They must have loved each other very much! (John 3:35; 14:31) Jesus imitated his father’s qualities so well that the Bible calls him “the image of the invisible God.”—Colossians 1:15.


Jesus referred to himself as “God’s Son” or “the Son of God.” (John 10:36; 11:4) Jesus never identified himself as Almighty God.

Moreover, Jesus prayed to God. (Matthew 26:39) And while teaching his followers how to pray, Jesus said: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.”—Matthew 6:9.


1 Corinthians 11:3, KJV: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Jesus revealed God’s name when he quoted an ancient passage of Scripture and said: “Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Mark 12:29;Deuteronomy 6:4.

Jehovah has made it very clear that Jesus is the Messiah. God promised to give John the Baptizer a sign so that he would know who the Messiah was. When Jesus went to John to get baptized in the Jordan River in the year 29 C.E., John saw that sign. The Bible tells us what happened: “After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: ‘This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.’” (Matthew 3:16, 17)


And now for a little grammar / translation lesson: One example of a Bible verse that is often misused is John 1:1. In the King James Version, that verse reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Greek, ton the·onʹ], and the Word was God [the·osʹ].” This verse contains two forms of the Greek noun the·osʹ (god). The first is preceded by ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article, and in this case the word the·onʹ refers to Almighty God. In the second instance, however, the·osʹ has no definite article. Was the article mistakenly left out? ...

The Gospel of John was written in Koine, or common Greek, which has specific rules regarding the use of the definite article. Bible scholar A. T. Robertson recognizes that if both subject and predicate have articles, “both are definite, treated as identical, one and the same, and interchangeable.” Robertson considers as an example Matthew 13:38, which reads: “The field [Greek, ho a·grosʹ] is the world [Greek, ho koʹsmos].” The grammar enables us to understand that the world is also the field.

What, though, if the subject has a definite article but the predicate does not, as in John 1:1? Citing that verse as an example, scholar James Allen Hewett emphasizes: “In such a construction the subject and predicate are not the same, equal, identical, or anything of the sort.”

Many Greek scholars and Bible translators acknowledge that John 1:1 highlights, not the identity, but a quality of “the Word.” Says Bible translator William Barclay: “Because [the apostle John] has no definite article in front of theos it becomes a description . . . John is not here identifying the Word with God. To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God.” Scholar Jason David BeDuhn likewise says: “In Greek, if you leave off the article from theos in a sentence like the one in John 1:1c, then your readers will assume you mean ‘a god.’ . . . Its absence makes theos quite different than the definite ho theos, as different as ‘a god’ is from ‘God’ in English.” BeDuhn adds: “In John 1:1, the Word is not the one-and-only God, but is a god, or divine being.” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on the American Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.”

To illustrate, Hewett uses 1 John 1:5, which says: “God is light.” In Greek, “God” is ho the·osʹ and therefore has a definite article. But phos for “light” is not preceded by any article. Hewett points out: “One can always . . . say of God He is characterized by light; one cannot always say of light that it is God.” Similar examples are found at John 4:24, “God is a Spirit,” and at 1 John 4:16, “God is love.” In both of these verses, the subjects have definite articles but the predicates, “Spirit” and “love,” do not. So the subjects and predicates are not interchangeable. These verses cannot mean that “Spirit is God” or “love is God.”


Does the identity of God have to be “a very profound mystery”? It did not seem so to Jesus. In his prayer to his Father, Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father when he said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) If we believe Jesus and understand the plain teaching of the Bible, we will respect him as the divine Son of God that he is. We will also worship Jehovah as “the only true God.”


So, as requested, I've stuck with the Bible and provided quite a few scriptures that make it clear that "Jehovah of old" is definitely not "Jesus of today"! They are two distinct individuals, and there are many many more scriptures that I could have shared to give further proof. I hope that this has been helpful for anyone looking for answers to what the Bible really says on the subject!

Mark
Click to expand...




Again, the same Creator in the OT is the same Savior in the NT. Who was in the burning bush? Who was the pillar of fire by night and the pillar of smoke by day? It was and is Christ.

You have a love to quote the JW Bible. Did you not read what I posted? The bible you used came from 5 MSS. Those FIVE MSS came from Alexandria, the home of pagan worship and gnostic beliefs. The KJV came from 1900 different MSS that are in almost every language and THEY all agree.


If you want to use a resource that was culled by a Jesuit, man handled by Wescott and Hort and continue to quote "scholars" who are educated and trained by Jesuits, that's on you.

If you think the Father was the one who formed Adam from the dust, think it was the Father who was in the burning bush, the Father who gave the law to Moses (and I can keep naming them) you are just being stubborn.

Also, Christ was only subservient to the Father while he was in the flesh. By the way, if you look up the incarnate, you can learn a lot. You can't put flesh on flesh.
 
Bighammer..... I've given you many scriptures. You've not addressed a single one. Explain them....
So, start with post 111, then 112, then 113.
like this: Who created?? I say God. Do you agree or disagree? (Genesis 1:1)
Does the Bible contradict? John 1:10 says "he was in the world, the world was made by him, and the world knew him not" (they crucified him). This scripture says Jesus made the world. Either the Bible contradicts, or they are the same and one. I'm not going to retype it all. when your done explaining all the scriptures in the posts I've mentioned, I have many more.
 
bighammer said:
Are Jesus and God the same person? YES. Or as proposed by an earlier comment, is Jehovah of old Jesus of today? YES. What does the Bible say?? It says exactly that. It's clear that they are two different individuals. It's clear you are confused. Jesus of today is still subject to his father, the Almighty, and there is a vast amount of scriptural proof. Read what the Bible says: Ok, lets read.


Jesus’ opposers accused him of making himself equal to God. (John 5:18; 10:30-33) However, Jesus never claimed to be on the same level as Almighty God. He said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28. The spirit was greater than the flesh, yes. the flesh could die, the spirit could not. The flesh (son) yielded itself to the spirit within (the father).

Jesus’ early followers did not view him as being equal to Almighty God. For example, the apostle Paul wrote that after Jesus was resurrected, God “exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position.” Obviously, Paul did not believe that Jesus was Almighty God. Otherwise, how could God exalt Jesus to a superior position? —Philippians 2:9. Again, you misinterpret the scripture. Was Paul contradictory?? He wrote in Colossians 2:9 "for in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead Bodily. Paul also wrote I Timothy 3:16 stating "God was manifest in the flesh". And how do you explain Paul's writings in I Corinthians 10:1-4??? It says Moses and Israel drank from that ROCK; and that ROCK was Christ (verse 4). Hmmm... how was the rock Christ when Christ did not exist?? except Jehovah of old is Jesus of today! I could give many more, but on to whatever else you wrote.


"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) Yes, God sent his son (the flesh) There is no confusing wording here. It's plain English, showing the distinction between Jesus and his Father, the Almighty. Just explained, Jesus (flesh) was sent by God, but God was in him. That is why Jesus said "if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. I and my Father are one". Who else, would ever say that? We don't refer to us and our Dad's that way....


To much of the same... so I'll end with answering the scripture below..
Only Jehovah is “God Almighty.” (Genesis 17:1) He is the greatest and most powerful person in the universe.
So you say the Bible says God is the most powerful?? Well, what about this?
Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". ALL means ALL, and in both Heaven and Earth! So, either Jesus is a liar, or God has no power and was overthrown by his own son, or..... the logical answer.... Jesus and God are not separate, but truly one and the same!!!
Click to expand...
click to expand. my answers are in bold black
 
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