Hey, I just set her on the ground for her first test run after engine and trans rebuild. I put some .028 steel gaskets on a 318 with 302 close chamber heads that were just built and milled with 360 valves. Stock pistons, and yes I used the old head bolts...Ran around the block a couple of times and man she sounded good and the trans shifted like she was ready to launch. My Mopar friend came over so I took him for a spin. I had not hit the kick down yet, but I did with him in the car. Next thing I know we are white smoking out both exhaust pipes like masquito foggers. Back 2 plugs on drivers side and front 2 plugs on pass. side have 50# comp. What head gaskets should I go back with ( with new bolts)? Is that .028 steel gaskets too temperamental to precision on surfaces, and will a .043 Felpro solve this problem? Any advice, or repromand appreciated.
Just Blew 2 Head Gaskets at Once. First Run
- Thread starter dusty1
- Start date
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340sixpack
Well-Known Member
Head or deck surface uneven?Did you have both milled at rebuild?We run them on our big blocks without problems but never used on a small block.Do you use any kind of sealer,copper coat,etc?
No sealer. The heads were surfaced but the block came as is from a kid that had machine work done on the block, so I took it for adiquite. I would be content if just a thicker fel pro or some other gasket would get it going...with new head bolts.
dodge freak
Well-Known Member
Muscle Motors told me to use those head gaskets only when you are trying to get every bit of compression like for a racing motor / not for long term street use. And Eric as told me for $55-$60 its foolish not to get new head bolts.
I went with Mr Gasket Ultra-Seal head gaskets (I know, most of their stuff is junk) and ARP Head bolts..I torque them down to 95 lbs and went back the next morning and back each bolt off a 1/4 turn and re torque it to 95 lbs...some kind of racing trick.
Its been one year and all is good..and I don't baby my motor.
I went with Mr Gasket Ultra-Seal head gaskets (I know, most of their stuff is junk) and ARP Head bolts..I torque them down to 95 lbs and went back the next morning and back each bolt off a 1/4 turn and re torque it to 95 lbs...some kind of racing trick.
Its been one year and all is good..and I don't baby my motor.
340sixpack
Well-Known Member
The blue Fel Pros would seal it fine,if not,you have bigger problems.Check your block with a straight edge while your heads are off,im sure its not the problem.We have never run a steel shim head gasket without spraying them with copper coat,not sure if thats your only problem or not.As far as running them on the street,we have 20 year motors out there running around without
a problem.You do need a good surface to make the steel shim work,our heads are usually cleaned but not always the block depending on what we were doing with the engine.
MoparJoe20
Well-Known Member
If you run steel gaskets dry they will leak, they need something, spray hylomar seems to work best for me but coppercoat or even a heavy coat of silver spraypaint just before install will work too.
Did it milkshake the oil or just leak into the cyls?, if the oil looks ok I would switch to the fel pros run new bolts, try a dealer for the bolts as it was $12-14 for OE last time I needed them.
Did it milkshake the oil or just leak into the cyls?, if the oil looks ok I would switch to the fel pros run new bolts, try a dealer for the bolts as it was $12-14 for OE last time I needed them.
dodge freak
Well-Known Member
Yeah but the head bolts were not torque down to a good amount..cause the other head had like 60 lbs on the bolts..maybe 50 and the bolts were old.
Yep white smoke was pouring out at high speed passing everybody, lol...I bet everybody thought my motor blew..was back on the road two days later :cheers:
A metal gasket is really just a shim. I think it would have to have some sort of adhesion media. I remember seeing stuff like gold colored spray paint being used.
Once a bolt begins to stretch it will continue to stretch every time it torqued . Due to the lack of quality raw materials today, new head bolts will be meant for only 1 use.
Once a bolt begins to stretch it will continue to stretch every time it torqued . Due to the lack of quality raw materials today, new head bolts will be meant for only 1 use.
dodge freak
Well-Known Member
The way I see it is .015 isn't going to make much difference in compression. I am sure if done right and no pinging ever happens a steel shim gasket will work a very long time. They were used in new motors long ago. But since I don't enjoy pulling the heads off I went with those Mr Gaskets.
Be sure the thread holes are clean and use some lube on the bolt threads so they torque down right.
Be sure the thread holes are clean and use some lube on the bolt threads so they torque down right.
cudavert
DARTAHOLIC
My Commando 273 had steel shim head gaskets when I took it apart.....with the Mopar logo on them. Couldn't be that bad......but yeah, I've always heard to spray Copper Coat or equivalent on first.
340sixpack
Well-Known Member
They are coated already,no need for a sealer if there the permatorque.
Thanks a lot guys for the help. When this first happened I thought I had overheated the rings and lost them. Pulling the heads is a piece of cake compared to the thought of burning the car for insurance....I mean, pulling the motor again. Will be on the road in a week or so.
daredevil
Well-Known Member
make sure and oil or use assembly lube on the bolts and torque to spec. a dry bolt wont have the right clamping force when torqued
Did you paint the heads before you put them on the engine? I blew a pair of gaskets once and I couldn't work out what the problem was, all the outside bolts had lost torque but the inner ones under the rocker cover were fine, it had to be the paint, I had painted the heads before assembly. They torqued up fine to start with but after the engine got some heat in it the paint softened and the bolts lost torque, cleaned up the area under the bolts new gaskets never had another problem.
dartcuda1
67 Barracuda 500ci 6sp
O steel shim head gaskets you have to torque them down to spec start the engine let it worm up then retorque the bolts.If you don,t retorque the bolts you will have the problems you are having. Mark
moper
Well-Known Member
The block was cleaned up on the decks... the heads were milled, and the gaskets are 1/2 as thick as was used at the factory... So, I have a couple questions... first, you can re-use headbolts... So long as it wasnt overheated or overtorqued for a stock or mild build factory old bolts are fine. With any fastener, the holes need to be tapped out using a bottoming tap and then blown clean to get the debris out. Each hole needs this. While I'm on the subject of bottoming out... Are you certain the bolts are not bottoming out in the holes instead of clamping to full load? Seen it before, in fact a 360 I just tore down had bolts in at 60lbs feet. Should be 95... Also, the threads get oiled with a SMALL amount of 30wt oil. A drop or two tops, or it can interfere with torque values and come out of the hole and contaminate the gasket surfaces. As far as gasket types go... If it was a MLS (Multi Layer Steel) gasket, the surface finish on the head and block must be very smooth. Smoother than most old school millers can reach. I have to tell the shop what finish i need for those gaskets. They dont just pop in like the Mr. G or Fel Pro or Victor-Reinz. Those will seal against damn near anything. MLS will not.
Moper, got good comments about you from someone else. I have ordered ARP bolts and fel pro gskts. Clean up the threads and a drop or two of oil. 95 torque. Should I retorque in any certain way, or not at all? Thanks again for the advice.
cavemanmoron
Well-Known Member
I suggest FelPro gaskets, assembly lube, on the threads.
Follow factory torque sequence pattern; like from Chiltons etc.
Go in steps,60 then 75 then 90 is what I did.
moper
Well-Known Member
Whoever it was they're a LIAR!!!! No charges were EVER filed!!!
...If you're using the Felpros they are called "Perma Torques" for a reason.. no re-torque needed. Just go three steps to 95lbs with the last one a smooth steady pull to the 95lbs mark (or click). And thanks for the kind words.
Whoever it was they're a LIAR!!!! No charges were EVER filed!!!
...If you're using the Felpros they are called "Perma Torques" for a reason.. no re-torque needed. Just go three steps to 95lbs with the last one a smooth steady pull to the 95lbs mark (or click). And thanks for the kind words.
Has the statute of limitations ran out on those charges??????
moper
Well-Known Member
No.. but the animals have passed away under mysterious circumstances...
green1
Well-Known Member
I just used Felpros intake on a 70 340. Leaked a gallon of antifreeze in the pan before even starting it; I'll see how Edelbrock gaskets work next week.
Now the Felpro head gasket has me worried.
Now the Felpro head gasket has me worried.
This is what I have found. I pulled the heads, and two cylinders on the drivers side and one cylinder on the passenger side had blown the head gasket out into the valley. I took the heads to a machine shop and told them to check them out in all the ways possible. They milled the heads due to the slight rough milling that the heads had on them. Then the news....the intake edge of the heads was .005 lower than the rest of the head surface. They had to mill about .007 to flatten the heads. This very well could be what my problem was. You just never know what you will find. Thanks again for the help guys.
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