LCA bushings- rubber vs. poly and sway bars, '73-up

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michiganpat

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I'm in the midst of diassembling my duster's front suspension for a rebuild due to some worn 48 year old ball joints. I'm kind of surprised how decent the lower control arm bushings look, but since I'm this far in, I'm replacing them anyway. I had planned on a stock rebuild, so I bought stock style rubber bushings. As I get into it, and with the relative PITA it is to remove the sleeves once you take it out, the prothane poly LCA bushings are looking more and more attractive since they reuse the stock bearing shells. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with either the poly bushings, stock OEM style, or both; how ride/harshness is with the poly LCA bushings (I'm still using the moog problem solver UCA's for more caster), and if I should pivot and go that route.

While doing it, I'm also upgrading the t-bars from the stock .85" to .92", using KYB shocks, and will likely be adding a hellwig 55905 (1.125" tubular), Addco 596 (1.125" solid) or Addco 186 (1" solid) sway bar as well (currently is none)

feedback is welcome on both the bushings and the bars.
 
I put all poly in my Coronet and only the poly LCA and strut rods on the Valiant. The Dart and Duster we used all Moog rubber. Out of them all the Valiant I like the best. The Coronet handled awesome and amazing feedback but it was a bit harsh when I just wanted to cruise around. The Dart is too mushy, I will be updating to the poly LCA eventually there. The Duster I think with the wider track handles and rides nice with the rubber bushings.
 
keep the moog problem solver uppers, i don't think there's enough to gain with poly uppers. on the LCA a lot of people run and like the poly i think it's a nice compromise to the delrin, but it won't last nearly as long.

i've personally run poly in my cars and have no regrets. my cuda currently has rubber, and .920 bars with older KYB's and a 1.25" addco front bar, the ride is taut but not overbearing. it's at home on the highway or on the streets and doesn't rattle fillings out.

the addco bars both have more rate than the hellwig, but the hellwig is like half the weight, and has much nicer hardware.

get the best shocks you possibly can, even if it means holding off on a front bar or just running a stocker for now.
 
keep the moog problem solver uppers, i don't think there's enough to gain with poly uppers. on the LCA a lot of people run and like the poly i think it's a nice compromise to the delrin, but it won't last nearly as long.

i've personally run poly in my cars and have no regrets. my cuda currently has rubber, and .920 bars with older KYB's and a 1.25" addco front bar, the ride is taut but not overbearing. it's at home on the highway or on the streets and doesn't rattle fillings out.

the addco bars both have more rate than the hellwig, but the hellwig is like half the weight, and has much nicer hardware.

get the best shocks you possibly can, even if it means holding off on a front bar or just running a stocker for now.
well, the stock rubber lasted 135k and 48 years. the car maybe gets 2-3k miles a year at most, and I'm a few months from 49, I would hope that the polys would last long enough that I'll be too old to have to replace them when they wear out.

yeah, I was leaning towards the hellwig because of the lighter weight and more moderate rate (why I was also looking at the 1" addco over the 1.125")...everything but the sway bar and the poly LCA bushings (including the rubber LCA bushings) I bought from rockauto a couple months ago (including shocks).

on your cuda, what is your rear suspension? 6 leaf HD? do you have a rear bar, too?
 
I put all poly in my Coronet and only the poly LCA and strut rods on the Valiant. The Dart and Duster we used all Moog rubber. Out of them all the Valiant I like the best. The Coronet handled awesome and amazing feedback but it was a bit harsh when I just wanted to cruise around. The Dart is too mushy, I will be updating to the poly LCA eventually there. The Duster I think with the wider track handles and rides nice with the rubber bushings.
thanks for the feedback. sounds like going poly on the LCA might be a good way (and much easier) for me to go... what year dart and duster? is the dart older so it's significantly narrower? otherwise the track width should be pretty much the same.
 
Easy ones first-

KYB shocks are garbage. They're too stiff and ride like crap. If you want good shocks, spend the money to get RCD Bilsteins. If you want cheap shocks, just get the replacement Monroe's or Gabriels, they ride nicer than the KYB's and cost less anyway.

The Hellwig sway bar will fit better and have much better hardware and instructions than the Addco bars. The majority of the load on a hollow bar is carried on the outside, so the reduction in roll resistance is small compared to a solid bar of the same outer diameter. Plus, you may not need the larger bar anyway, that will depend on your tire choices. If you're keeping 15" rims and the tires that typically go with them, you're not going to need a gigantic front sway bar. That said, I run 1.12" torsion bars and a Hellwig sway bar on my '74 Duster with 275/35/18's.

Now, poly bushings. There are a lot more considerations than just "they're easy to install because you don't need to remove the bushing shells". So this will be long...

Poly LCA bushings do not work the same way that rubber LCA bushings do. Rubber LCA bushings are an interference fit between the outer and inner shells. Because of that, nothing spins/slides. Which means that the entire travel of the LCA is flex in the bushing. That's why you have to torque the LCA pivot pins at ride height, because the rubber will not flex enough to cover the entire range of travel of the LCA- so half the travel is flex up, half the travel is flex down. Torque the LCA while it's hanging down all the way and the rubber will tear before the full travel is achieved, because the interference fit at the shell has more strength than the rubber does in shear.

Poly bushings however are a slip fit. The material is much harder, and does not flex (much). This means as the LCA goes up and down the LCA pivot pin rotates inside the poly bushing (or possibly the bushing rotates in the shell, depending on which fit is tighter). Because you have one surface spinning/sliding on another, you need lubrication. This is why poly bushings are installed with grease.

Which is better? Depends on what you want. Rubber bushings allow for a lot of slop, the LCA can flex up and down like it needs to, but it also flexes forward/back (this part also depends on the strut rods and their bushings). But the rubber is maintenance free, no service required. I'd say the fit doesn't matter either, so while they require special procedures to install/remove you just install them and it's fine. Unfortunately some of the rubber bushings are made so poorly now that's not the case. See here...LCA pin loose in bushing

Poly bushings do not allow nearly as much slop. You get more accurate handling, less variation in your alignment changes, and sharper transitions from your steering and handling inputs. BUT! They must fit tightly in the shells, and tightly on the pins. If the bushing is not a tight slip fit into the shells and onto the pin they will wallow around, which will handle like crap and wear out in short order. Because the shells are original, that tight slip fit is not a guarantee, you have to check. And if the fit isn't a tight slip fit, you have to change the shells. Also, if the grease dries up, they will squeak!!! If they're squeaking, that's friction, and that will wear out the bushings prematurely. So when you see people complaining about their poly bushings squeaking that's either an improper installation or improper maintenance, and both will lead to failure. Poly bushings must be greased. Typically a lot of people can get away with adding copious amounts of grease on install, and then not again for a long time. I always install poly LCA bushings with greaseable LCA pivot pins, so I have a way to add grease later. Because if at ANY point the poly bushings start squeaking, you have to grease them. If you don't have greaseable pivot pins, well, you have disassemble the LCA and add grease. Properly installed and maintained poly will last forever.

Bottom line for me is I always install poly LCA bushings with greaseable pivot pins and adjustable strut rods. Properly maintained they'll outlast and outperform rubber. But like any performance part, they must be installed and maintained properly, and that goes beyond what it takes to care for OE rubber bushings.
 
well, the stock rubber lasted 135k and 48 years. the car maybe gets 2-3k miles a year at most, and I'm a few months from 49, I would hope that the polys would last long enough that I'll be too old to have to replace them when they wear out.

yeah, I was leaning towards the hellwig because of the lighter weight and more moderate rate (why I was also looking at the 1" addco over the 1.125")...everything but the sway bar and the poly LCA bushings (including the rubber LCA bushings) I bought from rockauto a couple months ago (including shocks).

on your cuda, what is your rear suspension? 6 leaf HD? do you have a rear bar, too?
if i were building something as a nice cruiser i'd choose the hellwig over the addco 100% of the time (unless i found one dirt cheap). obviously poly mounts all around on that.

rears on my car are 6 leaf HD (or whatever passed for that from MP 20 something years ago). no rear bar currently, but i have run a 9/16" in the past. i don't like rear bars on the street unless it's an all out effort or the car is specifically built for them or tuned with them.
[insert huge raging debate about giant rear bars here]

like 72blu said, the key to poly lowers is all about the install. if it's not right, they're crap. generally poly lowers are complimented with adjustable strut rods, and while not strictly necessary i'd consider them a worthwhile investment. but poly bushings would be fine for a street car with a reasonably mild build.

the problem with shocks is that it's either stock: gabriel, monroe, sachs(?) or spend the dosh and get RCD's. the middle ground of KYB's is sucky. but with .920 bars, good quality stock shocks will be acceptable, but not ideal.
 
so one question because as I look at the suspension design I can't quite figure out. if you do use a poly bushing that is a transition/tight running (slip) fit to the pivot pin, what exactly is holding the LCA from sliding fore-aft at the pivot? is it just the T-bar clip? with the rubber busing that is press fit to the LCA and the pivot pin, it's the press fit.
 
so one question because as I look at the suspension design I can't quite figure out. if you do use a poly bushing that is a transition/tight running (slip) fit to the pivot pin, what exactly is holding the LCA from sliding fore-aft at the pivot? is it just the T-bar clip? with the rubber busing that is press fit to the LCA and the pivot pin, it's the press fit.

This is a common misconception about the LCA bushing. The factory LCA bushing does nothing to keep the LCA from moving forward/back.

There is no positive connection, so, you’re saying that a piece of rubber locates the LCA. It’s just not how it works, that rubber will tear when subjected to any significant load.

The forward/backward movement of the LCA is controlled by the strut rods. It’s literally the only purpose they have.

The torsion bar clip also does not locate the LCA. There’s a probably a good 1/2” of space between the ends of LCA socket and the crossmember socket with the torsion bar in, they can slide forward and back quite a bit. Now think about how much of a change in caster a 1/2” movement of the LCA is. The clip is just insurance against the torsion bar sliding out if it became completely unloaded. Extremely unlikely but it’s a positive stop.
 
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This is a common misconception about the LCA bushing. The factory LCA bushing does nothing to keep the LCA from moving forward/back.

There is no positive connection, so, you’re saying that a piece of rubber locates the LCA. It’s just not how it works, that rubber will tear when subjected to any significant load.

The forward/backward movement of the LCA is controlled by the strut rods. It’s literally the only purpose they have.

The torsion bar clip also does not locate the LCA. There’s a probably a good 1/2” of space between the ends of LCA socket and the crossmember socket with the torsion bar in, they can slide forward and back quite a bit. Now think about how much of a change in caster a 1/2” movement of the LCA is. The clip is just insurance against the torsion bar sliding out if it became completely unloaded. Extremely unlikely but it’s a positive stop.
I was just thinking that there is still an offset between the tire contact patch and the strut rod mount (if looking from above), so theoretically, it could pivot about the strut rod mount location, and induce a moment about the vertical axis there...although given the distance from the contact patch to the strut rod is significantly shorter (assuming approx 1/2 way outboard on the spindle) than the strut rod mount to the LCA pivot, the load shouldn't be that great. thinking about it more, the only significant fore-aft load you'd see would be heavy braking, and with the pivot pin being on the rear of the K frame, the moment generated from a near-full lockup of the brakes would actually try push the pivot end of the LCA forward....just don't do a panic stop from 60 in reverse and things should be fine.

didn't realize there was that much extra space fore-aft for the t-bar..
 
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