Led Lights

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Michael Brisebois

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LED lights have been out for a while. I've heard that some are too large and warp lenses with high temps. I want to switch out every bulb in my 66 Barracuda, as OEM's are just not bright enough. Anyone that has one of these knows that many of these pieces, will be work to replace.

Can someone share experiences and suppliers that perform well?
 
I don't know why LED's would produce too much heat. They are way way more efficient than incandescants but there is a lot of Chinese **** out there. Consider making sure what you get is DOT approved. Most the HID crap I run across---coming at me at night, ---is not approved
 
LED and HID are two different things.

HID puts out a lot of heat along with the light, but LED by design puts out a lot of light without much heat.

LED should never melt any housing or lens. It is designed to maximize light output without the associated heat.
 
Here's what to know about LED retrofit bulbs in vehicle signal lamps (brake lights, tail lights, parking lights, turn signals, etc).

First, the quick nutshell version:

• Answer to "Will it work?" is more complicated than it seems.

• Fundamentally different kind of light source, so unlike with filament bulbs, physical fit doesn't guarantee optical compatibility/acceptable performance.

• Giant mountain of unsafe junk on the market, all fraudulently hyped as an upgrade.

• A few legitimate products that work OK in some of the lamps they fit in; important to check the actual function carefully.

• Optical compatibility isn't the only issue; there's also electrical compatibility and thermal concerns.

Now the long, detailed version:

Start with how signal lamps (parking lamps, turn signals, side marker lights, brake lights, tail lights, reversing lamps) have to work. It's a lot more than just "Yep, that lights up and looks good to me". Please see this post—I point you at it not to say "Forget any bulb retrofit, you're going to have to build from scratch", but just so you get some idea of the complexity involved beyond "Yep, it lights up and looks good to me".

Bulb-type lamps (brake light, tail light, parking light, turn signal, side marker, whatever) rely on a point source of light, a glowing filament, that radiates more or less equally in all directions—a sphere of light—collecting and distributing that light with optics in the lens and/or reflector. A group of LEDs, in whatever formation, can't exactly duplicate such a sphere of light at the required scale, so the light distribution from bulb-type lamps equipped with "LED bulbs" is often seriously degraded.

Disregard all the trinkets and garbage that aren't from reputable, major-brand light source suppliers. All the junk on eBay, all the trash from ReallyBrightLEDs.com and SuperKewlBlingLights.com and all the rest of it.

LED substitute bulbs from legitimate makers have been evolving in a good direction, in fits and starts. The first generation Sylvania Zevo product was a pathetic, completely unsafe sick joke, disingenuously marketed as "for interior and off-road use only" (yeah, because gosh, there are just all kinds of vehicles where red 1157 bulbs are used in the interior…). The second/current generation Zevo product, with its aluminum Y-frame design, has a whole lot more and better engineering behind it.

Philips used to offer a few bulbs (1156 and 1157 red; 1156 white) that had two emitters back-to-back on a metal sandwich-board kind of arrangement. Those were very good, and compatible with a lot of different lamps. So of course Philips discontinued those; now they offer two different bulb families that are both inferior to the older design and both incompatible with a lot of old-car lights.

The few legitimate LED bulbs that exist work well in some of the lamps they fit in. In others, they work poorly. Their performance has to be carefully assessed in whatever particular lamp they're installed in, by comparing them side-by-side with the original incandescents as reasonably well described (in an accessible DIY manner) here.

And in some lamps, including a lot of old-car lamps, they don't work at all, because all the legitimate LED retrofit bulbs have only rear/side-facing emitters. That works in some lamps with a reflector bowl behind the bulb to gather and magnify the light, but there's a whole other kind of lamp that doesn't use (or doesn't only use) a reflector bowl. Instead, these lamps have what's called Fresnel-type optics, the kind where the lens has a central magnifying area directly in line with the filament of the installed bulb, and spreader optics surrounding that magnifier. Often the magnifier is a round bullseye and the spreaders are a series of round prismatic rings surrounding the bullseye, but sometimes the magnifier is square or rectangular and the surrounding prisms are linear. If there's no light directly out the front of the bulb, there will be minimal to zero output from the lamp.

Those previous-generation Philips bulbs i mentioned put out enough frontward light to work in many Fresnel-type lamps, but the current Philips products put out none. Unfortunate, but that's the world we live in.

There are the thermal issues with LED bulbs. Unlike with previous light sources (light and heat emitted together through the lens of the lamp), an LED puts out light from its front side and heat from its back side. The light goes forward, the heat goes back. As the LED heats up, its light output drops (it's called "droop"), so each LED must have an adequate heat sink to carry the heat away from the emitter and prevent it heating up high enough to drop the output low enough to put the lamp's output below the minimum requirement. LED vehicle lamps (designed and engineered as such) have to pass tests for output maintenance with prolonged operation, because that's a real-world situation (stuck in traffic with foot on the brake, tail/parking lights operating for hours on end, etc). This is a challenging requirement for even legitimate LED lamps, and it's a really difficult challenge for such a thing as an LED bulb, because there's a very limited amount of space for any heat sinking, and all of it's going to be inside the lamp there with the heat-emitting LEDs—there's no way to use outside air to cool the LEDs unless you have a big honkin' rear housing on the LED bulb. There are some out there like this, and they create physical-fit problems (not enough room behind the lamp for the big honkin' housing) and other issues related to improper fit in the bulb hole. The point of all this is you can't just throw a big pile of LEDs at it to sledgehammer the optical compatibility issue, because then you run into other problems.

Then there are electrical issues. There's a legal requirement that a turn signal bulb failure must markedly change the flash rate—much faster or much slower—so the driver will be alerted the failure (no such requirement for brake lights, though; fun, eh!). The outage-detection works off bulb continuity and resistance, and in those terms LEDs behave very differently than filaments. So installing LED bulbs typically results in the turn signals flashing much faster than the legal requirement of 60 to 120 flashes per minute (or flashing not at all, depending on what kind of turn signal flasher you have). This is not a big deal on older cars like ours; you just upgrade the turn signal flasher to this one (2-prong like original; connect its ground wire conveniently).

Finally, there's another matter that affects the compatibility of LED bulbs with lamps designed to use filament bulbs: most white LED bulbs are high-CCT ("cold white"), like 5000K, 6000K, or higher. That's cold/blue-white light. These white LEDs produce very little red in their output, unlike a colourless filament bulb. Put a cold-white LED behind a red lens, and you get a dim, muddy, pinkish-brown light that's way outside the boundaries of what's allowable as red (and invisible to people with a common form of colourblindness). This is a bad idea, as we're talking about lights that are supposed to immediately convey the vehicle's position/direction of travel and that it's decelerating. Messing with their colour, intensity, and light distribution makes them unable to do their job keeping you from getting hit. Just yesterday I was in traffic behind a Honda with an OE-type filament brake light bulb on the left, and a white LED on the right. The OE-bulb side was much brighter and redder (the light worked better with the stock-type bulb).

A '66 Barracuda has reflector-type tail lights, not Fresnels, so after you clean the reflector and repaint it (hardware store "chrome" spray paint is ideal), try these in the brake lights, subject to the comparison performance test linked earlier in this post. You might get lucky with these in your backup lights. There is no legitimate LED bulb compatible with your Fresnel-type front turn signals, so this won't work; you'd have to either leave them alone (brighten them up with these; 25% brighter than stock) or try your "luck" with the LED-bulb trinkets and trash, again subject to that same performance check.

Dashboard bulb LED upgrade is easy and doesn't make problems if done thoughtfully; see here.

Headlamps: again, a mountain of fraudulent/unsafe junk on the market, including all "LED bulbs" that fit in halogen headlamps (see here) and a whole lot of toys shaped like whole sealed beam headlamps. But there are some good-to-excellent ones on the market, too. Right now the bang-for-buck item is this one, made reasonably well in Taiwan by Maxxima and sold by Tungsram, which is the new name for GE Vehicle Lighting. (if you want to buy it under Maxxima's own brand, you can, but at 4× the price!).

Beyond that, the Peterson 701C is pretty good, and so is the Truck-Lite 27270C. By a big, big margin the king daddy of them all is the JW Speaker 8700, which comes in black or chrome. All three of these are well made in America. There's a lot of lookalike copycat junk "recommended" when you look at these; ignore them.

Whatever headlamps you wind up using, the most important thing about them is how they're aimed.
 
Firstly, you need to ask for help at the store where you bought the headlight. A service warranty is often issued for such spare parts. Qualified specialists will also help you with the selection and installation of new lighting. My kids accidentally smashed one of my headlights two months ago. moreover, I also decided to purchase https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09L86JRRM/?tag=fabo03-20. Btw, it usually takes 1-2 hours to change the headlights. If there are factors complicating the work, the procedure may last longer.
 
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I have all LEDs on my dart and soon valiant and got mine from superbrightleds.com and never had a issue with any bulb from them.
 
Here's what to know about LED retrofit bulbs in vehicle signal lamps (brake lights, tail lights, parking lights, turn signals, etc).

First, the quick nutshell version:

• Answer to "Will it work?" is more complicated than it seems.

• Fundamentally different kind of light source, so unlike with filament bulbs, physical fit doesn't guarantee optical compatibility/acceptable performance.

• Giant mountain of unsafe junk on the market, all fraudulently hyped as an upgrade.

• A few legitimate products that work OK in some of the lamps they fit in; important to check the actual function carefully.

• Optical compatibility isn't the only issue; there's also electrical compatibility and thermal concerns.

Now the long, detailed version:

Start with how signal lamps (parking lamps, turn signals, side marker lights, brake lights, tail lights, reversing lamps) have to work. It's a lot more than just "Yep, that lights up and looks good to me". Please see this post—I point you at it not to say "Forget any bulb retrofit, you're going to have to build from scratch", but just so you get some idea of the complexity involved beyond "Yep, it lights up and looks good to me".

Bulb-type lamps (brake light, tail light, parking light, turn signal, side marker, whatever) rely on a point source of light, a glowing filament, that radiates more or less equally in all directions—a sphere of light—collecting and distributing that light with optics in the lens and/or reflector. A group of LEDs, in whatever formation, can't exactly duplicate such a sphere of light at the required scale, so the light distribution from bulb-type lamps equipped with "LED bulbs" is often seriously degraded.

Disregard all the trinkets and garbage that aren't from reputable, major-brand light source suppliers. All the junk on eBay, all the trash from ReallyBrightLEDs.com and SuperKewlBlingLights.com and all the rest of it.

LED substitute bulbs from legitimate makers have been evolving in a good direction, in fits and starts. The first generation Sylvania Zevo product was a pathetic, completely unsafe sick joke, disingenuously marketed as "for interior and off-road use only" (yeah, because gosh, there are just all kinds of vehicles where red 1157 bulbs are used in the interior…). The second/current generation Zevo product, with its aluminum Y-frame design, has a whole lot more and better engineering behind it.

Philips used to offer a few bulbs (1156 and 1157 red; 1156 white) that had two emitters back-to-back on a metal sandwich-board kind of arrangement. Those were very good, and compatible with a lot of different lamps. So of course Philips discontinued those; now they offer two different bulb families that are both inferior to the older design and both incompatible with a lot of old-car lights.

The few legitimate LED bulbs that exist work well in some of the lamps they fit in. In others, they work poorly. Their performance has to be carefully assessed in whatever particular lamp they're installed in, by comparing them side-by-side with the original incandescents as reasonably well described (in an accessible DIY manner) here.

And in some lamps, including a lot of old-car lamps, they don't work at all, because all the legitimate LED retrofit bulbs have only rear/side-facing emitters. That works in some lamps with a reflector bowl behind the bulb to gather and magnify the light, but there's a whole other kind of lamp that doesn't use (or doesn't only use) a reflector bowl. Instead, these lamps have what's called Fresnel-type optics, the kind where the lens has a central magnifying area directly in line with the filament of the installed bulb, and spreader optics surrounding that magnifier. Often the magnifier is a round bullseye and the spreaders are a series of round prismatic rings surrounding the bullseye, but sometimes the magnifier is square or rectangular and the surrounding prisms are linear. If there's no light directly out the front of the bulb, there will be minimal to zero output from the lamp.

Those previous-generation Philips bulbs i mentioned put out enough frontward light to work in many Fresnel-type lamps, but the current Philips products put out none. Unfortunate, but that's the world we live in.

There are the thermal issues with LED bulbs. Unlike with previous light sources (light and heat emitted together through the lens of the lamp), an LED puts out light from its front side and heat from its back side. The light goes forward, the heat goes back. As the LED heats up, its light output drops (it's called "droop"), so each LED must have an adequate heat sink to carry the heat away from the emitter and prevent it heating up high enough to drop the output low enough to put the lamp's output below the minimum requirement. LED vehicle lamps (designed and engineered as such) have to pass tests for output maintenance with prolonged operation, because that's a real-world situation (stuck in traffic with foot on the brake, tail/parking lights operating for hours on end, etc). This is a challenging requirement for even legitimate LED lamps, and it's a really difficult challenge for such a thing as an LED bulb, because there's a very limited amount of space for any heat sinking, and all of it's going to be inside the lamp there with the heat-emitting LEDs—there's no way to use outside air to cool the LEDs unless you have a big honkin' rear housing on the LED bulb. There are some out there like this, and they create physical-fit problems (not enough room behind the lamp for the big honkin' housing) and other issues related to improper fit in the bulb hole. The point of all this is you can't just throw a big pile of LEDs at it to sledgehammer the optical compatibility issue, because then you run into other problems.

Then there are electrical issues. There's a legal requirement that a turn signal bulb failure must markedly change the flash rate—much faster or much slower—so the driver will be alerted the failure (no such requirement for brake lights, though; fun, eh!). The outage-detection works off bulb continuity and resistance, and in those terms LEDs behave very differently than filaments. So installing LED bulbs typically results in the turn signals flashing much faster than the legal requirement of 60 to 120 flashes per minute (or flashing not at all, depending on what kind of turn signal flasher you have). This is not a big deal on older cars like ours; you just upgrade the turn signal flasher to this one (2-prong like original; connect its ground wire conveniently).

Finally, there's another matter that affects the compatibility of LED bulbs with lamps designed to use filament bulbs: most white LED bulbs are high-CCT ("cold white"), like 5000K, 6000K, or higher. That's cold/blue-white light. These white LEDs produce very little red in their output, unlike a colourless filament bulb. Put a cold-white LED behind a red lens, and you get a dim, muddy, pinkish-brown light that's way outside the boundaries of what's allowable as red (and invisible to people with a common form of colourblindness). This is a bad idea, as we're talking about lights that are supposed to immediately convey the vehicle's position/direction of travel and that it's decelerating. Messing with their colour, intensity, and light distribution makes them unable to do their job keeping you from getting hit. Just yesterday I was in traffic behind a Honda with an OE-type filament brake light bulb on the left, and a white LED on the right. The OE-bulb side was much brighter and redder (the light worked better with the stock-type bulb).

A '66 Barracuda has reflector-type tail lights, not Fresnels, so after you clean the reflector and repaint it (hardware store "chrome" spray paint is ideal), try these in the brake lights, subject to the comparison performance test linked earlier in this post. You might get lucky with these in your backup lights. There is no legitimate LED bulb compatible with your Fresnel-type front turn signals, so this won't work; you'd have to either leave them alone (brighten them up with these; 25% brighter than stock) or try your "luck" with the LED-bulb trinkets and trash, again subject to that same performance check.

Dashboard bulb LED upgrade is easy and doesn't make problems if done thoughtfully; see here.

Headlamps: again, a mountain of fraudulent/unsafe junk on the market, including all "LED bulbs" that fit in halogen headlamps (see here) and a whole lot of toys shaped like whole sealed beam headlamps. But there are some good-to-excellent ones on the market, too. Right now the bang-for-buck item is this one, made reasonably well in Taiwan by Maxxima and sold by Tungsram, which is the new name for GE Vehicle Lighting. (if you want to buy it under Maxxima's own brand, you can, but at 4× the price!).

Beyond that, the Peterson 701C is pretty good, and so is the Truck-Lite 27270C. By a big, big margin the king daddy of them all is the JW Speaker 8700, which comes in black or chrome. All three of these are well made in America. There's a lot of lookalike copycat junk "recommended" when you look at these; ignore them.

Whatever headlamps you wind up using, the most important thing about them is how they're aimed.

What's your take on the latest Philips Ultinon stuff? I was looking at upgrading my lighting now that my car is becoming more of a daily driver again and found your recommendations in previous threads, but didn't realize until I found this one that the design had changed. I had already ordered a set before I found this post and was getting ready to send them back before they even arrived, but once they showed up they looked even different than what the pictures online were showing, in what I think might be a positive way. The 1156 series at least now has LEDs facing parallel to the bulb as well as a couple facing perpendicular like the old original style. Seems like this might be good for fresnel style lenses if I understand correctly? You have to squint a bit, but if you look on the packaged bulbs you can see the lights on the base facing straight out. I know the picture isn't technically the 1156 series, but they are built the same.

1730726551529.png


The 1157 bulbs don't seem to have this same configuration though. I think they are strictly perpendicular light, which might still be okay?
1730726693413.png


I think the intent is to replicate a filament style light origin, though it seems like these would still limit the parallel light emission a bit. I think LEDs put out close to hemispherical lighting, but I imagine the extreme limits of that might be less impressive. Guessing these wouldn't be as good for the fresnel style lenses, but might be okay for taillights?
 
What's your take on the latest Philips Ultinon stuff?

It is grossly inferior to the earliest Philips Ultinon ones, which worked really well in a fair number of lamps, including a lot of the ones with fresnel optics. Philips discontinued those, and replaced them with a different design a little like the Sylvania Zevo Y-frame items. These worked less well, and in fewer lamps. Then they discontinued those and brought out three different new designs, including the ones you've linked, which…work less well, and in fewer lamps.
 
It is grossly inferior to the earliest Philips Ultinon ones, which worked really well in a fair number of lamps, including a lot of the ones with fresnel optics. Philips discontinued those, and replaced them with a different design a little like the Sylvania Zevo Y-frame items. These worked less well, and in fewer lamps. Then they discontinued those and brought out three different new designs, including the ones you've linked, which…work less well, and in fewer lamps.

Ah, lol. I didn't realize they had redesigned them so many times. Most of the pictures I saw online were this cluster style that didn't seem to have any effort to replicate a filament style light source and looked like the typical "LED replacement" bulbs you see everywhere
1730742115517.png


I saw these as well, which I assume are the Y style you referred to?
1730742211491.png


And just for my own curiosity, these were the original style, correct?
1730742267260.png


So are the Sylvania Zevo's still the only thing remotely worthwhile in the LED market for our taillights? Seems like the latest(?) Philips Ultinon might still make for a decent reverse light, but not so much taillights from the sound of it.
 
I saw these as well, which I assume are the Y style you referred to?

Yup.

And just for my own curiosity, these were the original style, correct?

Yup.

So are the Sylvania Zevo's still the only thing remotely worthwhile in the LED market for our taillights?

Yup.

Seems like the latest(?) Philips Ultinon might still make for a decent reverse light

Maybe, depending on which reversing lights we're talking about. Nope for most of them.
 
I have a set of the Trucklite style on my car now. Still a little odd looking, but a little closer to a "regular" reflector style light. The bar in the middle actually lines up near perfect with the line in the grille, so sort of looks like it belongs.
1730756954749.png
 
these are still the best out there right now???

If you can wait, wait. JW Speaker will be releasing all-new LED sealed beams in a few months. I was just at their HQ last week, and I got a detailed look at them including an extensive night-drive. They are much better, and they'll be significantly less expensive, with a bunch of options (with/without built-in turn signal/parking light/daytime running light, with/without lens heaters for driving through sloppy winter weather, etc). They don't look anything like sealed beams, but they also don't look anything like the present JWS headlamps, and the overall look is cleaner.
 
Reverse lights would be for a 67 Dart

These Sylvania Zevos will work at least reasonably well in the '67 Dart reversing lamps. The Philips ones with the LEDs in a sorta-filament position might work, too; have to try and see. The Philips ones with the three outward-facing panels of LEDs are junk in any lamp, as are the ones with the LED mounted flat on the bulb base (shooting straight out away from the base) with the diffuser bubble around them.

Paint the reflectors with Ceiling White paint (not just any old white paint; go to a paint store and get Ceiling White), which is practically ideal for the task—yes, even if the original material on the reflector bowls was more of a silvery stuff. An example is 'Ceiling Bright White' from Sherwin-Williams; they'll mix it up for you as a polyurethane-based paint on request. It's water-based, so it won't stink up the place and it's easy to apply and clean up. Don't worry about the surface gloss (or not-gloss) of the ceiling white paint; surface gloss isn't the thing here. "Chrome" spray paint is a fairly decent second preference, but the white works better; it has 90-some-odd-percent reflectivity of incident light with broad diffusion; see here for a demonstration; he takes awhile to get to the point, but he eventually (3:24) he starts to get around to it, and the difference is pretty obvious even with a low-quality camera. And he just used regular white, not ceiling white; regular white looks dishwater-grey next to ceiling white.
 
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If you can wait, wait. JW Speaker will be releasing all-new LED sealed beams in a few months. I was just at their HQ last week, and I got a detailed look at them including an extensive night-drive. They are much better, and they'll be significantly less expensive, with a bunch of options (with/without built-in turn signal/parking light/daytime running light, with/without lens heaters for driving through sloppy winter weather, etc). They don't look anything like sealed beams, but they also don't look anything like the present JWS headlamps, and the overall look is cleaner.

sweet. anyway you can let us know when they are on the market?
 
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