Lifter plunger in the 59 deg toilet

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boilermaker

boilermaker

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Hello everyone.
Autopsy done on collapsed ( crane hydraulic roller) lifters.
3 that collapsed had markings inside lifter body ( see pics).
Pushrod cup didn’t want to come out.
After I got them out , I found the marks on the inner bore of the lifters on the cylinder side only not any marks on the cam side of lifter bore.
My thoughts are the extreme angle of the pushrod may of contributed to this marking.
All marks were approx .070”below retaining clip ( about preload location). This wear is a what may of contributed to lifter failure.
I did go way over redline (7500 plus), but that should have not destroyed the lifters.
Also most lifters are fine.

I guess my point is how much effect of the 59 degrees caused this failure.
My two cents for the day.

John

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I had a similar thing happen on a 360 -
Pushrods were too long and over extended the plunger. Anyhow - I was not as savvy as I am now. My mistake ordering adjustable Rocker arms and push rods for a mechanical cam in that LA360- I measured wrong and almost lost the motor. Lucky for me the shorter pushrods changed the angle and she was right as rain. Just my 2 cents.
 
You had a .070 preload?
Can you take apart another known good lifter for a side by side comparison?

The 59* angle isn’t a very good one. The race block corrected that with a 48* angle as you know. It may be time to switch. I’m unaware of your build particulars. 7500 is a lot of rpm. Never mind your occasional plus.
 
boilermaker said:
Hello everyone.
Autopsy done on collapsed ( crane hydraulic roller) lifters.
3 that collapsed had markings inside lifter body ( see pics).
Pushrod cup didn’t want to come out.
After I got them out , I found the marks on the inner bore of the lifters on the cylinder side only not any marks on the cam side of lifter bore.
My thoughts are the extreme angle of the pushrod may of contributed to this marking.
All marks were approx .070”below retaining clip ( about preload location). This wear is a what may of contributed to lifter failure.
I did go way over redline (7500 plus), but that should have not destroyed the lifters.
Also most lifters are fine.

I guess my point is how much effect of the 59 degrees caused this failure.
My two cents for the day.

John

View attachment 1715575224

View attachment 1715575225

View attachment 1715575226

View attachment 1715575227
Click to expand...


That’s not caused by the 59 degree lifter bank angle. Hydraulic lifters fail on every brand of engine.

The lobes are fast enough the hydraulics can’t deal with it.

Also, if you didn’t correct the rocker arm geometry that’s an issue. If you haven’t done that, you need to do it, and buy solid roller lifters and set the lash at .002 cold and run it.
 
rumblefish360 said:
You had a .070 preload?
Can you take apart another known good lifter for a side by side comparison?

The 59* angle isn’t a very good one. The race block corrected that with a 48* angle as you know. It may be time to switch. I’m unaware of your build particulars. 7500 is a lot of rpm. Never mind your occasional plus.
Click to expand...

I was setting preload to .045" . The marks on lifter were about .070". I'll take apart another pair of good lifters once i get my new set.
Just wondering if the push rod plunger rotates?
 
OK thanks. Just wondering.

And that is a good question.
 
rumblefish360 said:
OK thanks. Just wondering.

And that is a good question.
Click to expand...
Answer with another question....How is it going to rotate? All rotation is lost with the roller cam. My answer from a design standpoint is no rotation possible. Hydros rotated with the cam acting on one side of the lifter (crowned lobes) which rotated the pushrod cup, which even rotated the pushrods if the rockers allowed them to rotate.
 
pishta said:
Answer with another question....How is it going to rotate? All rotation is lost with the roller cam. My answer from a design standpoint is no rotation possible. Hydros rotated with the cam acting on one side of the lifter (crowned lobes) which rotated the pushrod cup, which even rotated the pushrods if the rockers allowed them to rotate.
Click to expand...
A rotator might be a good idea to keep pushrod cup from staying in one place?
 
If the pushrod binds at any point throughout cam lift, that can do it as well.

If the lifters pump up and go solid its adds more push rod angularity .just check for any signs of wear/rubbing.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
If the pushrod binds at any point throughout cam lift, that can do it as well.

If the lifters pump up and go solid its adds more push rod angularity .just check for any signs of wear/rubbing.
Click to expand...

I had all pushrod holes opens up (eddy 60779). This cam was new this season. Had springs changed to meet cam card. I put about 600 miles on assembly.
The lifters were sometimes a bit noisy after car sat for a week or so. All in all it worked great. I really need to watch the tach once I’m back together. I’m just worried about the long term wear if the pushrod angle is the culprit.
 
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boilermaker said:
A rotator might be a good idea to keep pushrod cup from staying in one place?
Click to expand...
rotator turns the valve, no the rocker or pushrod. I'm not sure how the cups wore as they dont move during operation: the oil pumps the reservoir up with oil past a one way check valve, the same design that are in floor jacks. the light spring against the check ball in the lifter keeps the ball against the seat and keeps the oil in the reservoir at pressure. Cam lifts the lifter, oil cannot compress so its essentially a solid lifter at this point- no movement in the cup to body location. This state stays constant throughout the cam cycle and as long as the motor is running. Only upon shutdown does the lifter bleed off this pressure and that is in the range of 1-10 seconds per Johnson lifter whitepapers. Far to long for the cup to move during operation. If I were doing an NTSA failure analysis, I would suggest that oil pressure or oil pressure control (check ball seating) may have been an issue in the scrubbing of those cups to body as you are seeing. Loss of oil pressure in the body is the only way those cups can move, as in no oil pressure starting or a lazy check ball or dirty seat, ie. noisy lifter. Email lifter manufacturer with your pics and see if they suggest any failure analysis.
 
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pishta said:
rotator turns the valve, no the rocker or pushrod. I'm not sure how the cups wore as they dont move during operation: the oil pumps the reservoir up with oil past a one way check valve, the same design that are in floor jacks. the light spring against the check ball in the lifter keeps the ball against the seat and keeps the oil in the reservoir at pressure. Cam lifts the lifter, oil cannot compress so its essentially a solid lifter at this point- no movement in the cup to body location. This state stays constant throughout the cam cycle and as long as the motor is running. Only upon shutdown does the lifter bleed off this pressure and that is in the range of 1-10 seconds per Johnson lifter whitepapers. Far to long for the cup to move during operation. If I were doing an NTSA failure analysis, I would suggest that oil pressure or oil pressure control (check ball seating) may have been an issue in the scrubbing of those cups to body as you are seeing. Loss of oil pressure in the body is the only way those cups can move, as in no oil pressure starting or a lazy check ball or dirty seat, ie. noisy lifter. Email lifter manufacturer with your pics and see if they suggest any failure analysis.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the information. A lot of people never look for the problem that takes out parts.
I read a lot about "it died and they sent me a new one".
In my line of work (boilers and furnaces) most manufactures don't care about their products when it comes to operational defects or parts failing. Its all just, change the part and carry on.
I'm of the mind set, why did it die and how can this be made better.
I truly appreciate the input from FABO. Thank you again for the help and insight.

John
 
it can be made better by going to a solid roller. No hydro preload BS, no incompatible ramp rates, just a little sewing machine noise during normal operation and some routine quarterly valve adjustments. you can keep your hydro roller cam too.
"...It is possible to run ..mechanical roller lifters on a hydraulic-roller cam. Putting solid lifters on a hydraulic cam will gain about 500 rpm on the top-end over hydraulic lifters due to the solid lifters' improved valvetrain control—unlike the hydraulic, solids have no bleed-down/pump-up problems. Some hydraulic-roller cams—particularly smaller grinds with 220-240 degrees duration at 0.050—are quick off the seat, but this tends to cause more instability on top. Using solid lifters, even with the existing hydraulic springs, enhances top-end stability and fights the onset of valve float.


Successfully running solid lifters on a hydraulic profile requires some amount of valve lash (a solid lifter cannot run at zero lash or be preloaded). This lash effectively reduces cam duration, especially at low lift off the valve seat (see table below). With less duration, peak torque and power occur at lower rpm than would normally be the case for the given combo when running a hydraulic lifter. In other words, the cam acts smaller."

DURATION VS. LASH
This table shows the change in effective duration at the valve from different valve-lash settings on a Comp Cams Xtreme Energy No. 3315 hydraulic-roller lobe profile. It assumes a 1.5:1 rocker arm ratio.
VALVE DURATION AT LASH
LIFT 0.004" 0.008" 0.012"
0.006" 279.7 273.6 268.6
0.020" 262.5 258.9 255.6
0.050" 240.9 238.6 236.5
0.200" 183.2 181.9 180.6

How-to Run Solid Lifters on a Hydraulic Cam).
 
The 59* lifter bank angle is the killer. Petty actually cut out the lifter area in the valley and rewelded it back in the block to correct the mistake Ma Mopar made when this engine was designed.

I don't believe any LA can survive 7500 rpm for long with the stock 59* deal.

Not long without breaking parts. Slow your roll or get a 48* block.
 
Krooser said:
The 59* lifter bank angle is the killer. Petty actually cut out the lifter area in the valley and rewelded it back in the block to correct the mistake Ma Mopar made when this engine was designed.

I don't believe any LA can survive 7500 rpm for long with the stock 59* deal.

Not long without breaking parts. Slow your roll or get a 48* block.
Click to expand...
They do with a solid flat tappet. About 8,500 rpm off the bank, though ACH-anything can happen. I'm sure you're well experienced in that occurrence.
An old friend did some racing in the early Jimmy johnson cajon speedway days, they were trying 273 rockers lol, they threw rods and broke stuff figuring it all out..but they got it figured out after a while, that mostly one race was all they'd get out of it, and found the stock parts and oversll design limits pretty quick.i wish he had kept some of that stuff. Last time I saw him he only had a few W2 and other weird odds and ends that have holes,twists,or cracks in them..though I think his partner may have the motors..idk.

I'm sure you're aware but, for those who aren't..There's a few symptoms from that fucked up lifter angle one of them is lifter cup boring... especially if the pr. tips are aren't right for the cup 'comp cams mass produced and let put a bunch of sharp edge at the seam ball end push rods in the 90's that killed all removable lifter cups in that style lifters in sbm...now that wouldn't happen on a 48 degree being straight up and down. There wouldnt be the angularity . That's why the lifter bores are suspect by most, on here too. The other mostly known thing is the pushrod tunnels on the head need modifying , mostly out on the bottom and in on the top, looks like an hour glass if you could do a cutaway on a head after modifying. O never knew the crane retrofits to have any issue, our buddy Brian's put one in his dart...worked fine, was only .500 n something lift 'the smaller one'
Bummer
 
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boilermaker said:
Hello everyone.
Autopsy done on collapsed ( crane hydraulic roller) lifters.
3 that collapsed had markings inside lifter body ( see pics).
Pushrod cup didn’t want to come out.
After I got them out , I found the marks on the inner bore of the lifters on the cylinder side only not any marks on the cam side of lifter bore.
My thoughts are the extreme angle of the pushrod may of contributed to this marking.
All marks were approx .070”below retaining clip ( about preload location). This wear is a what may of contributed to lifter failure.
I did go way over redline (7500 plus), but that should have not destroyed the lifters.
Also most lifters are fine.

I guess my point is how much effect of the 59 degrees caused this failure.
My two cents for the day.

John

View attachment 1715575224

View attachment 1715575225

View attachment 1715575226

View attachment 1715575227
Click to expand...
Strip or street application?
 
boilermaker said:
Hello everyone.
Autopsy done on collapsed ( crane hydraulic roller) lifters.
3 that collapsed had markings inside lifter body ( see pics).
Pushrod cup didn’t want to come out.
After I got them out , I found the marks on the inner bore of the lifters on the cylinder side only not any marks on the cam side of lifter bore.
My thoughts are the extreme angle of the pushrod may of contributed to this marking.
All marks were approx .070”below retaining clip ( about preload location). This wear is a what may of contributed to lifter failure.
I did go way over redline (7500 plus), but that should have not destroyed the lifters.
Also most lifters are fine.

I guess my point is how much effect of the 59 degrees caused this failure.
My two cents for the day.

John

View attachment 1715575224

View attachment 1715575225

View attachment 1715575226

View attachment 1715575227
Click to expand...
If the pushrod angle was causing the problem all the lifters would have failed.
You have other issues.
What does the outside lifter surface and the lifter bore of the failed lifters look like? Did you measure them?
 
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I think you did two things wrong, maybe 3.

7500RPM on any hyd lifter is asking for trouble. The 59 degree isn't helping, either. I also wonder how much spring pressure you had...
 
512Stroker said:
Strip or street application?
Click to expand...
More street than strip.
My 318 with the solid 528
Flat tappet, 3.91,3200 stall 904 28” tire ran 13.0 Last year.
I was hopping for 12’s this year with the hydraulic roller.
The spring pressure is 340lbs at 1.188 and close to 110 closed .
 
512Stroker said:
If the pushrod angle was causing the problem all the lifters would have failed.
You have other issues.
What does the outside lifter surface and the lifter bore of the failed lifters look like? Did you measure them?
Click to expand...
I have small scuff on the cylinder side of the top and a small scuff on the bottom cam side. This I would expect due to lifter angle.
I have not measured.
I’ll check that tonight.
 
boilermaker said:
More street than strip.
My 318 with the solid 528
Flat tappet, 3.91,3200 stall 904 28” tire ran 13.0 Last year.
I was hopping for 12’s this year with the hydraulic roller.
The spring pressure is 340lbs at 1.188 and close to 110 closed .
Click to expand...

I used 160 on the seat minimum. And the lifters hate it.

That’s why I stopped using hydraulic lifters. Save yourself the grief and buy a QUALITY set of solid roller lifters (buy once, cry once and you are on round two), lash the valves at .002 cold and send it.

Screwing with hydraulic lifters is a waste of time.

And you can get the seat pressure to 200-220 and the valve train will be much happier.
 
boilermaker said:
More street than strip.
My 318 with the solid 528
Flat tappet, 3.91,3200 stall 904 28” tire ran 13.0 Last year.
I was hopping for 12’s this year with the hydraulic roller.
The spring pressure is 340lbs at 1.188 and close to 110 closed .
Click to expand...
You have gone in the wrong direction.
Ditch the hydraulic rollers and replace them with solid rollers like other members have advised.
Oh and buy a ECU with a rev limiter and set it for your engine build. 7500 rpm is probably not realistic.
 
boilermaker said:
I have small scuff on the cylinder side of the top and a small scuff on the bottom cam side. This I would expect due to lifter angle.
I have not measured.
I’ll check that tonight.
Click to expand...
Are all of the lifters scuffed on the outside as you described of just the lifters that failed?
 
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