Lifter problems????

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superdart

superdart

Shade Tree Tinker Gnome.....
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God, I hope not. But it appears my sub 2000 mile 360 is developing a lifter problem.

I recently changed from Castrol SAE30 to Amsoil 10W40 motor oil in the car. I waited over 1000 well driven miles before changing. A few weeks later I developed a tapping noise at startup if the car sat more than a day. I don't see how going to a heavier oil would cause anything, but I thought I'd put it out there.

NOW, after sitting 3 weeks while getting my cooling system ironed out, and my oil kit/cooler system on, I have still have tapping at startup if it sits more than 30 minutes, AND it has a constant valvetrain noise from one of the 2 right side back cylinders.

My friend thinks it might be a collapsed lifter. It's a stock rocker setup with cut down 400 pushrods and a mild 455/475 Doug Hebert cam. The motor has been together and in the car since 2001, but until this year it was only started and ran on a monthly basis. Since last november it has seen regular heavy footed street duty (no racing). It still seems to run great.

Oh yeah..it runs about 40psi of oil pressure when warmed up at anything over 1000 rpms. Below that it runs about 30-35. I have a new VDO electric oil pressure gauge.

Why would it fail now?
What causes this anyway?

I'm going to pull the valve cover off tomorrow to look at it. Is there a best way to determine what is going on? I'm going to check the rocker shaft bolts and lash on the rockers. I'm not sure what the engine builder had them set for, but I figure they should all be close.


I have faith in the builder. He came highly regarded by my car club. Unfortunately he passed away a few years ago.

A Little Help PLEASE!!!

Thanks
 
40 psi seems a little low. Seeing as it's losing prime, I'd suggest a couple things. First, pull the oil pum and chekce the pressure releif/by-pass. It may have soemthign in it sticking it open. Even stock engines had pressures in the 50psi range over 2K rpm and higher if the bearings were in good shape. Second, make sure the oil filter you are using is a high quality one. The $1.99 filters at Wally World are worth the price. A good filter will cost twice that at least. I use Wix, or Napa Gold, or Car Quest, all of which are made by Wix. Your pressure will drop with most synthetics, because they run thinner than conventional oils of similar wt. Some have higher pressure, I find Syntec does anyway than a similar Dino oil. The protection should be more than enough with the 10-40 Amsoil, but you pressure IMO is too low. If those other two ideas dont fix it, stick an HV pump in it. Dont worry about draining the pan, just keep the level at "full". The noise is an indicator of a problem, but the lifters need a bit of oil pressure now and again to stay pumped up. I'd look into this stuff first.
 
superdart said:
I recently changed from Castrol SAE30 to Amsoil 10W40 motor oil in the car. I waited over 1000 well driven miles before changing. A few weeks later I developed a tapping noise at startup if the car sat more than a day. I don't see how going to a heavier oil would cause anything, but I thought I'd put it out there.
Click to expand...

Doesn't answer or maybe it does but anyway. 10w40 is a lighter weight oil at start-up temperature than straight 30W. The 10W40 designation means that the oil pours the same at 0 degrees as 10 weight and will not thin out more than more than 40 weight at 2xx degrees. Also, the general concensus is you don't change over to synthetic oil until you have 5-10k miles on the engine.

Also, there has been lots of discussion lately about modern oils not having enough of the anti-scuff additives required to protect flat tappet cams. The zinc that used to be added to oil for scuff protection has been mostly removed for emissions purposes. Because virtually all new engines have roller cams an do not require the protection an alternative was not added. Worest case you may have the beginnings of a wiped cam.

Before going to wild, check the obvious things you mentioned. You also might want to switch to a deisel oil like Shell Rotella T 15W-40 or 20W-50 which still does have the additives. Also, a different oil filter, one with a better anti-drain back valve may be worth a try too.
 
ok..lets see if I answer all of these:

1) It has a Mellings Hi Volume pump (as new as the motor).

2) I figured at start up is might tic, but once it's warm the oil should be thicker than SAE30. Am I wrong on this one?

3) Drainback of the filter is not an issue, although it might be of the lines. (see pic below of setup). Dual filter sitting upright, lines are arced up at the back of the mount so only the first 12-14 inches of line could drain back in to the pan.

4) Filters are AMSOIL SDF15 and BE90..some of the best available anywhere. I thought the bypass filter setup might be a bit too much restriction, but wouldn't that INCREASE oil pressure?

I think if I was wiping out a cam, it wouldn't be a result of changing oil?? This is serious stuff. Even the guys at the warehouse use it in thier race cars after only a few hundred miles (Lola Chassis SCCA cars). COuld it have already been failing and it only showed up after changing viscosities?

I'll recheck, but I think the oil pressure does get up around 50+ at highway speeds (I have 2.45 gears, so thats only about 2,000 rpms).


 
It also sounds like you got a lazy lifter and it's cropped up now that you've gone to a lighter (viscosity wise) oil. You can try to find the bad lifter but I caution you it can be dangerous if not done properly. Pull the valve cover off the site of the engine that rattles. Make a tin shield the length of the head and about 6 inches tall for keeping the oil in the head and not splashing on the hot exhaust. Have a bucket of water near by just in case. Now start the engine and using the end of a hammer handle, wood end, push down on each rocker arm directly above where the push rod seats. You should hear a tapping sound as the lifter collapses and when you remove the hammer handle the tapping should immediately go away. If the tapping sound takes more than 5 seconds to go away the lifter is bad. Be sure to check all the rockers on the head. This isn't easy to do especially with a high lift cam but I've had success with it. But what ever you do make sure the oil is not getting past the shield and running down the side of the block. :evil2:
 
neat trick never heard of that one but i think i would just get me some new lifters you can grab some from summit for like 50 or 60 bucks
 
A Demon seed said its old school; but it works, also when you drop your oil filter, take the time to cut it open with a pair of sheet metal shears, not a hacksaw and see whats in the filter, use a strong magnet if nessesary, it will show everything....!
 
Hey I resemble that, what you mean old school, I'm not that old, well actually I am.
If you find the offending lazy lifter you can disassemble it and you may find a piece of dirt in the little disc valve that keeps the lifter pumped up.
 
I learned that on brand x cars sense they were always collasping lifters and or pulling rocker studs.....!
 
Not to Hi-jack the post but my new less then 1000mile 360 has had bad lifters since day 1.

Racer brown adjustable rockers, Smith brothers pushrods and Johnson Lifters.

Set and re-set and re-set all of them no better they all clattered.

Got a new set of 16 from the engine builder tossed them in set and good untill its hot. #8 Intake ticks when rpm drops to idle. Still makeing like 40-45psi oil pressure hot @ idle and up to 60-65 with rpm.

I too was told to use straight 30weight -where do I even find such a beast- or 20-50 Needless to say I run castrol 10w-40


I'm told composite lifters are the way to roll but the price scares me. I can't imagine everyone else has this issue.
 
Castrol SAE30 is available at Autozone.I'll have to try that little trick (preferrably ith an extra set of hands around).
 
No such thing as an Autozone here.

I could hunt around more but I really thing straight weights in a street car is really old school.
 
OK, I got the valve cover off.


#6 Intake is screwed....It's super loose, the rocker arm flops around and everything..no tension at all.

All the other rockers are at various positions of rest, and they all have tension to one degree or another. Even if I can't move them, I can spin them with my fingers smoothly.

Based on this alone I'm feeling confident it's a lifter. Right in the postion it sounded to be coming from too, back end of right side.

Gonna go back out and take the rocker shaft off and see what I can see.
 
OK, I lied...it's not the lifter..IT'S THE PUSHROD.

Theory: Since the pushrods were cut down to the necessary length, my friend (machinist) suggested that the pushrods ends might be soft and wearing.

Turns out he was right!! All of the pushrods are showing wear. However, #6 Intake was VISIBLY shorter and the tip is worn to a semipoint where it seats in the lifter. I think it would have only been a short matter of time before they all started this.

Ok, so now I need pushrods. Problem is this pesky "too short" issue we had in the first place. Why would rods NOT be long enough when you are using stock head castings, stock rods, stock style lifters, etc? We assumed it was because the cam was ground smaller than a stock cam. I believe he measured it to confirm that theory at the time.

Any thoughts?

The idea of an adustable valvetrain to remedy the issue is not very attractive at this point. Check pic..rods are #6 pair intake (left) Exhaust (right) Lifter end. Top end looks spiffy fine.....
 
Some cams are gound on a slightly smaller base circle. So he may be on to it. But truthfully, it could be a lot of stuff. The block could be "tall", the stock heads could be "thick", the gaskets may be thicker than factory..What ever..The result is, you needed special length, not unheard of to me. I'm more concerned witht eh lack of oil to the ends of the pushrod. That's noramlly splash fed from the top. The parts are rotating normally, because it wore it to a point, but it should be getting more oil. Are the rocker shafts on properly? are you getting plenty of oil up top?
 
Lack of oil? How so?

A) I wiped them clean

B) They are rusted because the car was only ran occasionally for 4 years.

35 psi at idle
42 psi at 1000
50+ psi at 2000

Is going with a custom fixed rod ok? (I.E. custom ordered/cut) who should I talk to about this?

Or is going to the adustable rocker systemthe only "real" fix?
 
"Are the rocker shafts on properly? are you getting plenty of oil up top?"

He's asking if your getting oil through your rocker shafts, not do you have sufficient oil pressure. Two different issues. The pics of the pushrods are very blue, meaning they were getting very hot (lack of oil?). I personally would remove the distributor, and run the oil pump with a drill and priming tool. Rotate the engine and do the same procedure. The LA blocks "alternate" the oil feed tot he heads based on the rotation of the cam, so you will have to rotate the engine to check both heads. I think you might have lack of oil to the heads, which caused the pushrods to fail. My .02 worth.
 
That's what I meant... Sorry I wasnt as clear as I should have been. Smith Bros and Manton can custom make them. I've been able to find the lengths I've needed using Comp Cams in the "Hi Tech" line. If the rocker shafts were not right, or the cam bearings are not lined up properly in the cam bearing bores, the top end oil supply could be reduced or cut off totally. The priming shaftwitht he rockers in place will tell you, but like he said, it only feeds one bank of rockers at a time during engine rotation, so you have to pull the spark plugs, and have a buddy turn the engine over while you are priming with a drill. If you dont see much oil, pull the rocker shaft assemblies off, and try again. (careful, very great risk for a huge mess if the oil pressure and volume are good...lol) if you still get little or nothing, I'd pull the cam and check the bearing alignment. It can be off on the holes leading to the cylinder heads, or off on the holes leading from the mains up to the cam. I've had several small blocks where the oil holes were not perfect, and I had to buy a second set, modify them, and install them properly.
 
OK, well I can look into that. The rods aren't blue in person. I think my close up camera flash was doing that..it's not the greatest toy.

It'll be a while before I get that far..busy weekend ahead of me. We checked the flow when it was assembled...priming it with the valve covers off...yes, I made a mess. Unless something shifted or the pump is having issues I hope this will not have changed.

I did get a chance to cut my old oil filter apart (changed it last week). VERY clean looking inside, other than the old oil...LOL. No evidence of any filings, shavings, chips, etc). I also checked the oil that I drained out of it before cutting it open..it was "clean" also.

I'm going to get an adustable test pushrod to setup and check the length needed. Then I'll know for sure what to order.
 
Well, after doing more inspections, it appears that everything else is in order. It looks like I caught it just as the rod was starting to flatten, and the lifters and all appear to be ok. Only the cut ends are wearing, and not all of them at this point, only one or two noticeably.

Now I am at the point of how to resolve the issue. For sure I am getting a length checker to get the proper pushrod length I need. I am not going to half-step this repair. BUT, the rocker/shaft setup on the motor is NOT new, and it's all stock.

A few people have suggest a roller rocker setup. However nice this would be, it's NOT cheap. Seeing I have a mild 360 with less than .500 lift, I think a $600+ roller setup (Harland-Sharp) is a bit much. I am thinking about replacing the rocker shafts with MP chromes, and a set of beefed up stamped rockers. Any experience with these? Good? Bad? Waste of Money?

Also, a non-Mopar buddy asked about adjustable stamped rockers. Does such a thing exist for Mopars? Seems a bit of an oxy-moron (cheap stamped, but adjustable? Maybe I'm wrong.)

BTW - Heads are 596 castings that have been ported.
 
uh..Ok...the Harland-Sharp was the only thing I saw in Summit's paper catalog for LA motors. On the website they show a Proform Extruded Aluminum rocker setup for $200. Too Cheap?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PRO%2D66869&N=700+4294925232+4294924497+4294839886+4294908110+115&autoview=sku

Or this Crane Setup for $385..but I don't see anything about the shafts themselves..need to do more research.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRN%2D69790%2D1&N=700+4294925232+4294924497+4294839886+4294908110+115&autoview=sku

Sorry, but this type of stuff is new to me. I've always done stock type stuff...all this fancy gee-whiz stuff is more than I'm use to.....:toothy7:
 
with a small cam, you dotn need rollers. Think of it as putting a cast on a twisted ankle. Yeah, it will solve the issue, but it's not meant to do the job. You need to find why there isnt much oil geting to that very spot. I would guess it is cam bearings is the rockers and shafts were all on properly. Have you tried to prime the motor with the shafts removed to see how much oil is getting to the top end? FIxing it right may not be just getting the right length pushrods, it may be correcting rocker geometry, or replacing cam bearings. I'd want to make sure before you buy anything else, but that's me. Cheap roller rockers are worth every penny. I used stock original stamped steel on used stock shafts for years with cams similar to yours. The rockers are not your problem, nor are they the solution IMO.
 
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